06blackGTO

iTrader: (20)

So what's your point? If you would like to run 13.1 or 14.1 on nitrous on a stock LS2 block be my guest, but I won't be doing it. I don't have to go on the nitrous section to know that 13.1 or higher is lean on a stock block.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

Somebody already said it in this thread 'running lean doesn't hurt anything, too much timing does'.

You can't tune nitrous with a wideband. It's not a bad idea to have one but it isn't how you make the most power. A wideband will only tell you where your AFR is it not where it needs to be. Reading the spark plugs will get you more power and be safer doing it.

Normally if you are making more power at mid 11:1 AFR then you have too much timing. There are guys on this board that run/have ran there car above 13:1 and make more power than you.


As far as the question that you originally asked. Assuming that your fuel system is capable and working properly then yes the tuner could have added more fuel to get you by. But the proper way is to get the motor AFR right and tune nitrous AFR with the jets.


What plugs are you running?

06blackGTO

iTrader: (20)

Im running the br7ef's. wouldn't it be safer to run alittle more timing and have the power come on more at 11.1 then to have less timing and have the same amount of power at 13.1 a/f ?
I have 6 degrees of timing coming out when the noids activate on the 150 shot. my car na the timing peaks at 24 wot.

minytrker

iTrader: (13)

No, to much timing it what tears up parts. To rich isnt safe either it can be really hard on the pistons.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

Running rich doesn't make anything safer. The goal of the engine is to make the most pressure on the piston and the right amount of crankshaft rotation (roughly 15 degrees ATDC). Safer is not running too much or too little fuel, it's running the correct amount with the right ignition timing to make that happen.

Lower AFR (more fuel) takes longer to burn there for it needs more timing to get the same peak pressure point.

Running less timing means you need less fuel, which also mean less fuel system requirements.

You're nitrous timing doesn't sound that bad (though only the spark plugs will tell), but I can't believe it doesn't you're only running 24 on motor. Considering that you have bigger than stock combustion chambers and colder plugs.

06blackGTO

iTrader: (20)

Well I will ask the tuner what peak timing were at. I might be wrong. with my last tuner it was 24 degrees, but that was before the nitrous and tr55 plugs. I will see what were at now.Your prob. right, it might be higher now.

Hantzum

iTrader: (13)

Dude you may as well take that AFR gauge and throw it out the window when you are spraying! Get your NA AFR right like you said it is and then don't even pay attention to the wide band! You need to pull #7 or 8 plug and do a read and thats were you tune the nitrous! Anyone who tells you different is only opinion! This is FACT!!! You can always up the jetting if your plug read is too lean to fatten it up or have your tunner add timing or take timing based on the timing mark!

06blackGTO

iTrader: (20)

I never said anything about using the wideband for tuning. My tuner hooked up his LC-1 I believe it was, then ran it to his laptop. But he did not take out the plugs to read. My a/f is spot on when running na. Atleast my tuner said it was. But I will be taking a new set of plugs with me, and after each pull I will pull the 7 and 8 plug and I will have him go by that also to get it right.

Hantzum

iTrader: (13)

Sorry I thought you had a permanent wide band set up in the car! Your wide band at NA at WOT you said was a 12.8! Thats good! A smidge lean but your good at that! Whats your timing advance at WOT? Should be 29 or 30 degrees! Thats something he can read on the data log! You should also pay attention to his commanded AFR which should at WOT be commanding 14.7! Thats gonna all depend on his fuel curve VE and PE table!

Once you get that all situated then don't sweat the wide band AFR on the shot! Sometimes you'll get a 11.4-11.7 or you could get 10 or even a 12! Wide bands in my experiance have always been unreliable on Nitrous!

The only way to get an accurate plug read is to get the car at WOT and spray! When you have it hit for about 3-4 seconds let off the throttle and kill the engine! looks like you have a GTO so don't pull the key all the way back! If you do then you will lock you steering wheel! Thats not good! Put the ignition to the aux mode where you can still steer the car! Pull over on the road and pull the two plugs! That way you will have a nitrous pass and you should get a perfect plug read were the car is at! you let the car idle down after you let off the throttle the fueling changes and the timing changes so you will be looking at a false plug read! Your tuner should be also be removing at least 4 degrees of timing on a 150 shot! possibly 5! Good rule of thumb to follow is to pull 1 degree of timing for every 25 HP of Nitrous!

Thats why you see a lot of times at the track some guys will have a ATV come tow them back to the pit from the return lane, that way they can get accurate plug reads!

Let me know how it goes!!

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

What?

Hantzum

iTrader: (13)

On a LS2 head 30 degrees of timing is perfect! 24 is where you should be on a 150 shot!

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

You mean LS3? LS2 heads don't usually care for that much timing. And I wouldn't call anything 'perfect' without having worked on the tune myself and seen what it needs.

And to say that there is a rule of thumb for nitrous timing is simply retarded.

12.8 is a smidge lean? Did you tune this car on the dyno? How do you know what it likes? Or are you just saying that 12.8 is lean in general?

Commanded WOT AFR 14.7? Is that a typo? I guess is depends on his 'fuel curve VE', huh? You know that VE is airflow, right? But what if he's using a MAF. The PCM won't even look at VE if he is.

And it's not that widebands are unreliable on nitrous. Why the hell would they be. You're just adding more oxygen and more fuel. If your wideband says your at 10:1 then you are at 10:1. You just shouldn't tune nitrous off of a wideband because the AFR itself doesn't matter (assuming that it within limits). Fine tuning on nitrous should be with spark plug reading. Your wideband will however be correct at whatever AFR you end up at.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Man, you guys are all over the place. First you say you don't need to worry about A/F on the jug, but then you tell him that 12.8:1 on motor is a "smidge too lean". If you aren't worried about A/F on the jug, why on earth would you be worried about it on the motor?

There's mulitple ways of controlling heat in the chamber, and added fuel is one way. Adding fuel DOES NOT make it take longer to burn BTW. Adding fuel helps to remove latent heat, as well as contributing to the "boundry layer" in the chamber, which helps keep the heat out of the parts, and expell it out the exhaust.

I know alot of guys are running lean on the jug, but alot of guys are hurting motors like that too. There's no sense running N/A A/F ratios on the jug. No one here is trying to win the final round in the ADRL xtreme nitrous class.

Just because you run it lean doesn't make it better either. Too little timing will drive up your EGTs. I'd much rather run a little fatter, with a little more timing. Makes the EGTs more sane.

As for checking plugs, yes that's the best way to dial a car in. BUT, what do you do for your initial hit? Do you pill it lean to begin with, make a full pass and hope you don't knock the ring lands out of it? Come on guys, use your freekin heads. You add some fuel, pull out some timing, and make some short squirts. You wanna run the ragged edge, you need to creep up on it.

A W/B is just one more tuning tool. It has it's place in N/A cars, blown or turbo cars, and N2O cars too. To say it has no place in a nitrous car is ridiculous. I prefer EGTs, but not everyone has 3K to drop on them.

Some of the advice in this thread can end up costing someone a motor. To tell someone that they can run 14:1 on the jug is just stupid.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

Nobody told anybody to run 14:1. You should run what works. If 14:1 works then I say run it.


Obviously start small. Set it for a reasonable AFR and keep timing low and put it back in as needed.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Really? And how many are running 14:1 on the jug? I wouldn't setup an N/A car @ 14:1. To even insinuate that 14:1 is acceptable in a nitrous motor is just plain stupid.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

Goddamn. Learn how to read.

IF IT WORKS (which it probably won't). I didn't insinuate anything.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

I can read. And so can anyone else that comes across this thread. And to insinuate, which you did, that 14:1 MIGHT work, is misleading, and could cause someone to think they could do it, and POOF there goes their motor.

At no point, up until your LAST post, did you state WHICH IT PROBABLY WON'T.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

And I'm still not gonna say that it won't work. That's not insinuating that it will or that it is acceptable.

I never said that it MIGHT work either. I was making a point that you should give the motor what it likes and not just shoot for a generic number because it's the general consensus of LS1tech. Work your way up slowly and if you're still making power and you're keeping everything in check, then see where it takes you and don't just stop at 11.8 (or whatever).

IF THE MOTOR LIKES 17:1 THEN BY ALL MEANS RUN THE ************ AT 17:1.

But to make it clear for people who take me the wrong way or Ed. I'm not suggest that you start your tuning at 17:1, start low and see where it takes you.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

And you shouldn't just run it lean because the guys in the nitrous section do it. I know of more than one motor that has expired due to this method. And I'm talking forged piston motors, not stockers. Throw in the Hypereutectics with top ring gaps that are too tight, and you're playing with fire. I'd run the bitch at 10:1 if I knew it would keep the ring lands in it.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

You shouldn't insinuate that it is acceptable to run your motor at 10:1.