dyno disaster
06-24-2011, 08:26 AM
#41
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You might have to bite the bullit on this one like I am currently doing. Even if 100% of your soul knows it was the tuner's fault, you can't prove it. $6,500.00 later all I can say is just because somebody claims to know what they're doing doesn't mean they actually do. I feel your pain.
06-24-2011, 09:14 AM
#42
If someone builds a motor in their driveway and forgets to tighten a connecting rod bolt and then brings the car to me for a tune, but I shoot the rod through the block on the dyno because of the loose bolt, am I liable since I couldn't perform the service of a full dyno tune since the rod and chunk of block are now missing? C'mon man.
Not to mention you keep saying things like "this could've" or "this possibly" none of which shows actual PROOF only speculation.
From the sounds of it the transmission was built at another shop, and correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the tap shift setup is something aftermarket, and if so, again installed somewhere other than the tuners shop. If this is true how do you know it's not the fault of one of these components or of another shop?
I feel for the OP because it always sucks when stuff breaks and I'm in no way associated with this situation but we need to be realistic. If you can't show the cause of the problem definitively then how can you expect someone else to compensate you for it. It sounds like a lot of different people worked on this car leading up to the event.
Even though the OP says the car was in good working order before this happened how do you really know? Was it dyno tested anywhere else or even WOT tested anywhere else? It may have worked well driving easy to the shop but maybe wasn't right for this kind of abuse.
Unfortunately many people forget that the car gets put through the ringer on the dyno and if there's a weak point you'll probably find it. That's what tough about being a dyno operator, you break other peoples' stuff and they want to blame you even though it may not have been your fault.
All this misinformation is the problem with the internet but if you're going after someone for compensation you need proof, if you're going to walk into court with what you and someone from the interenet thinks happend then you're pissing into the wind.
06-24-2011, 12:31 PM
#43
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You really need to stop and go back to read your posts and then think about what you're actually saying because the statement above is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
If someone builds a motor in their driveway and forgets to tighten a connecting rod bolt and then brings the car to me for a tune, but I shoot the rod through the block on the dyno because of the loose bolt, am I liable since I couldn't perform the service of a full dyno tune since the rod and chunk of block are now missing? C'mon man.
Not to mention you keep saying things like "this could've" or "this possibly" none of which shows actual PROOF only speculation.
From the sounds of it the transmission was built at another shop, and correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the tap shift setup is something aftermarket, and if so, again installed somewhere other than the tuners shop. If this is true how do you know it's not the fault of one of these components or of another shop?
I feel for the OP because it always sucks when stuff breaks and I'm in no way associated with this situation but we need to be realistic. If you can't show the cause of the problem definitively then how can you expect someone else to compensate you for it. It sounds like a lot of different people worked on this car leading up to the event.
Even though the OP says the car was in good working order before this happened how do you really know? Was it dyno tested anywhere else or even WOT tested anywhere else? It may have worked well driving easy to the shop but maybe wasn't right for this kind of abuse.
Unfortunately many people forget that the car gets put through the ringer on the dyno and if there's a weak point you'll probably find it. That's what tough about being a dyno operator, you break other peoples' stuff and they want to blame you even though it may not have been your fault.
All this misinformation is the problem with the internet but if you're going after someone for compensation you need proof, if you're going to walk into court with what you and someone from the interenet thinks happend then you're pissing into the wind.
If someone builds a motor in their driveway and forgets to tighten a connecting rod bolt and then brings the car to me for a tune, but I shoot the rod through the block on the dyno because of the loose bolt, am I liable since I couldn't perform the service of a full dyno tune since the rod and chunk of block are now missing? C'mon man.
Not to mention you keep saying things like "this could've" or "this possibly" none of which shows actual PROOF only speculation.
From the sounds of it the transmission was built at another shop, and correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the tap shift setup is something aftermarket, and if so, again installed somewhere other than the tuners shop. If this is true how do you know it's not the fault of one of these components or of another shop?
I feel for the OP because it always sucks when stuff breaks and I'm in no way associated with this situation but we need to be realistic. If you can't show the cause of the problem definitively then how can you expect someone else to compensate you for it. It sounds like a lot of different people worked on this car leading up to the event.
Even though the OP says the car was in good working order before this happened how do you really know? Was it dyno tested anywhere else or even WOT tested anywhere else? It may have worked well driving easy to the shop but maybe wasn't right for this kind of abuse.
Unfortunately many people forget that the car gets put through the ringer on the dyno and if there's a weak point you'll probably find it. That's what tough about being a dyno operator, you break other peoples' stuff and they want to blame you even though it may not have been your fault.
All this misinformation is the problem with the internet but if you're going after someone for compensation you need proof, if you're going to walk into court with what you and someone from the interenet thinks happend then you're pissing into the wind.
#1 the engine's upgraded engine components were chosen by someone with a automotive degree, the engine was put together by a team of men with 50 yrs plus in the automotive industry including one guy who builds engines for track and strip applications. The transmission was built by a nationally know builder who is well spoken of by everyone I have encountered. Transmissions like this have held over 500whp. Check the internet and you can find videotape of such.
#2 The tap shift is a standard feature on the Grand Prix GXP check the web for a picture. I have posted this feature because the operator was using the feature during the dyno tune, remember the car was downshifted from 3td to 2nd at a very high rate of speed at the end of the 4th RUN
#3 The engine was only 6 months old and the transmission was 1 year old
#4 The engine and transmission was being run way under the performance parameters that were established before they were build.
#4 The over-rev occurred on the 4th run. No problems on the first three runs except the TC kept unlocking. Trans has a very good trans cooler on it.
#5 I have many statements from various dyno tune companys that state that dyno-running is just as stressful or even less stressful then doing a WOT on the street.
#6 The tuner has already stated that he locked the TQ during the last runs when the manufacture states that this type of TC should not be locked. Locking this type of TC with this type of transmission can destroy it.
#7 The tuner changed the parameters of the stock tune that allowed the car to be downshift at a high rate of speed.
Thank you for posting your points, I really do need to hear from other experts in the field. Please keep firing away.
06-24-2011, 01:04 PM
#44
In order to collect damages, you will probably have to show some sort of negligence. For instance, you could assert that the tuner was negligent in not shifting the car into neutral immediately after the pull, or maybe he failed to setup the software so it wouldn't downshift. Something along those lines is what a court would likely want to hear. Contrast this with "strict liability", where it would be the tuner's fault regardless of whether he was negligent or not. (This is not legal advice - for legal advice, contact a lawyer.)
Wrong. This describes "strict liability", which is the exception, not the norm.
If the person that was tuning the car was not inside the car at the time of the tune, and the tuner allowed a shop employee to sit in the driver’s seat, what is to say the employee accidently hit the paddle shifter causing the issue?
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
Talk to a lawyer, especially if you think you have evidence that suggests the car was damaged on the dyno by the tuner's negligence. If a legal action is too expensive, you can always begin dragging the tuner's name through the mud. That's usually a lot cheaper.
06-24-2011, 04:30 PM
#45
I don't understand how both the guy operating the car diring the dyno season and the tuner could fit in the car at the same time, since the tuner is huge in size.
I could see the paddle shifter being accidently bumped with them in there together
I could see the paddle shifter being accidently bumped with them in there together
06-24-2011, 04:47 PM
#46
I have personally seen a suite where a guy built a motor for a customer, the customer installed it wrong, the customer took the builder to court and won 60% of his money back. So say what you want about what you think about the court system. I have personally seen it. The owner proved nothing and the judge found partially in the customers favor, hence the statement he doesn't have to prove anything.
Kaltech the court system is not at all what you see on tv, you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, Just the story itself and the nature of the damage and not being explained, the judge can find putty on the customer and issue a judgment. Follow some small claim court cases then tell me my statement is dumb.
Kaltech the court system is not at all what you see on tv, you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, Just the story itself and the nature of the damage and not being explained, the judge can find putty on the customer and issue a judgment. Follow some small claim court cases then tell me my statement is dumb.
Last edited by bigboykilroy; 06-24-2011 at 04:57 PM.
06-24-2011, 06:45 PM
#47
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I also want to say to some that I am not looking for blood, I am not trying to destroy any one business. I am trying to do what is right and I am prepared for whatever the end result maybe. The tuners said after the over-rev that he didn't know what happen. This has been a mission to find the cause not to destroy someone.
In any type of investigation, every possible cause needs to be examined and attacked by a number of people. If this is done correctly then the truth will be brought forth. That's why I need you guys, keep asking, keep questioning.
06-24-2011, 06:54 PM
#48
I have personally seen a suite where a guy built a motor for a customer, the customer installed it wrong, the customer took the builder to court and won 60% of his money back. So say what you want about what you think about the court system. I have personally seen it. The owner proved nothing and the judge found partially in the customers favor, hence the statement he doesn't have to prove anything.
Kaltech the court system is not at all what you see on tv, you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, Just the story itself and the nature of the damage and not being explained, the judge can find putty on the customer and issue a judgment. Follow some small claim court cases then tell me my statement is dumb.
Kaltech the court system is not at all what you see on tv, you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, Just the story itself and the nature of the damage and not being explained, the judge can find putty on the customer and issue a judgment. Follow some small claim court cases then tell me my statement is dumb.
06-24-2011, 07:02 PM
#49
OP, I feel for you, and could argue both sides.
I avoided disaster with my car by immediately identifying that the guy I had install my cam and tune my car was a moron and fed me a complete line of bullshit.
I had so much knock from his f'd up tune, I would have blown it up shortly after getting it back had I not purchased HP Tuners, a wide band, and started tuning it myself.
Another GTO had the same ******* install a Procharger. His car lasted about 20 miles away from the shop, and he busted the #7 piston. Had the same moron rebuild the engine, and shortly after he got it back, mysteriously disappeared from all forums. My assumption was that it blew up on him too, and he was too embarrassed to admit he went back to the same dipshit.
Not really! 
06-25-2011, 08:19 PM
#54
I read a few posts because most of them are drama.
If I read correctly that the dyno operator did,in fact downshift the car at the high rate of speed and wrecked it, that the dyno shop should be paying for the fix. If the tuner messed up the downshift table's that made it backshift itself at high speed causing the damage- they should pay for the damage.
I know if I personally did that we would pay for it and I would admit it was our fault.
Now,if the above wasn't done and something just let go, deal with it,crap happens.
If I read correctly that the dyno operator did,in fact downshift the car at the high rate of speed and wrecked it, that the dyno shop should be paying for the fix. If the tuner messed up the downshift table's that made it backshift itself at high speed causing the damage- they should pay for the damage.
I know if I personally did that we would pay for it and I would admit it was our fault.
Now,if the above wasn't done and something just let go, deal with it,crap happens.
06-25-2011, 09:24 PM
#55
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This is what I got from 707chance postings
The tuner was not operating the car when it had the failure, an employee was
The failure occured on the 4th pull around 137 mph
The car was operated in the Manual/TAP Mode
The tuner had the TCC locked
The tuner states it downshifted into 2nd
The trans has 11 or 12 months on it
The engine has over 6 months on it
The Nitrous was not connected
He has a Video tape, but not of this pull
707chance has quoted the tuner as stating "He could not offer any explanation of this event".
This is just the information that 707Chance has posted
The tuner was not operating the car when it had the failure, an employee was
The failure occured on the 4th pull around 137 mph
The car was operated in the Manual/TAP Mode
The tuner had the TCC locked
The tuner states it downshifted into 2nd
The trans has 11 or 12 months on it
The engine has over 6 months on it
The Nitrous was not connected
He has a Video tape, but not of this pull
707chance has quoted the tuner as stating "He could not offer any explanation of this event".
This is just the information that 707Chance has posted
Last edited by CalEditor@PCMCalibrators; 06-25-2011 at 10:37 PM. Reason: too much info
06-26-2011, 12:09 PM
#56
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Modified cars are "hot rods". You make your car a "hot rod", **** happens.
While the OP has my sympathy, there are inherent risks when modding.
When i first built my 416 and Jeremy Formato had it on the dyno, it was obvious that Jeremy was being exTREMEly cautious. In other words, he didn't just strap it down and make a full-throttle pull. He wanted to make sure all the parameters were where they were supposed to be. Nevertheless, when he DID make a wot pull, I can tell you I remember standing there, holding my breath, waiting for something to blow. And if it would've? What was I gonna do? He was just doing his job. Probably would've been a "wtf?", followed by a shrug, a "it's time to start over", and then called a flatbed.
Basically the same thing with Ed. I wasn't there when Ed had my car on the dyno, I was at work. Actually, I didn't even WANT to be there, and again it's because of the implied risk of hot-rodding and dyno tuning. If something was gonna blow, I preferred being notified about it via a text than seeing it in person........lol.
I DO have to say, though, I have a VERY high degree of trust in Ed. The video of Ed refining my tune shows that he exercises a high level of caution under partial throttle before he does a wot tune.
So, my point, I guess (again sorry for your misfortune), is, do your research and only trust your car with a "real" tuner, not some wannabe. Trying to fight it out with the shop where this occurred is probably gonna be more time/money/aggravation than it's worth. Just my 2 cents.
06-26-2011, 01:12 PM
#57
Do we have real evidence the car was downshifted..and if so that it was commanded to downshift? If the transmission somehow failed and lost the gear it was in (which is possible after 4 dyno runs and being at 130+ MPH on the dyno), that could describe the situation. Even built the trans they put in the W-bodies was not great. Maybe the tuner did not realize what really happened...and thought it downshifted. I can't imagine asside from maybe 4-5 shops in the country that many tuners are super experts on these cars. Maybe I am wrong though.
06-26-2011, 05:41 PM
#58
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dyno run Thanks for all the good points guys, keep them coming.
According to HPT files the transmission was downshifted to 2nd. The car was in manual mode and the parameters were changed to allow the car to be downshifted.
The transmission was built to handle more hp/tq then what it was exposed to on all four runs...that is until the over-rev. If you go youtubing you can find cars running alot more hp/tq then I am running. I agree that the original transmission on the 3800s and LS4 are very weak indeed that's why I had it built.
I also agree that many tuners are prob. not experts concerning these types of transmissions and TC, thats why I sent the tuner a detailed mod list when we started talking by email. We both referred to that email when we were talking in person.
The transmission and TC will be pulled and inspected asap.
According to HPT files the transmission was downshifted to 2nd. The car was in manual mode and the parameters were changed to allow the car to be downshifted.
The transmission was built to handle more hp/tq then what it was exposed to on all four runs...that is until the over-rev. If you go youtubing you can find cars running alot more hp/tq then I am running. I agree that the original transmission on the 3800s and LS4 are very weak indeed that's why I had it built.
I also agree that many tuners are prob. not experts concerning these types of transmissions and TC, thats why I sent the tuner a detailed mod list when we started talking by email. We both referred to that email when we were talking in person.
The transmission and TC will be pulled and inspected asap.
06-26-2011, 06:06 PM
#59
You have an actual hpt data log showing the transmission was downshifted into 2nd during the dyno run by the person running the dyno? I know you said the tune was modified where it could have downshifted but there is a big difference in could and did.