frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

With all this VE talk from NoGo and Gameover it looks like some are working on getting rid of the the MAF. The Australians are way ahead of us on this, why has it's acceptance as a tuning method been slow in showing up here in the states? It looks to be a big plus on the big cam or blower cars. So who out there is working on it?
RapidMotorsports(mikey) Looks to be,
Eastside how about you guys?
Anyone else.
I know us autoguys will be at a disadvantage since the tranny is controlled by the MAF, but will we be able to get our cars tuned by you all on the dyno or road tuning like the aussies do for the automatic's there in Oz.
Shed some light(info) on this for us MAXED OUT MAF blower big cam guys,
Thanks,
J

Bink

NoGo has done a bunch of work in the MAFLESS area - hopefully he'll find time to post.

joel

66ImpalaLT1

mafless wont help you blower guys because the PCM is still stuck with a 1 bar map sensor.

Bink

GMPX and Delco know how to fix that (1 bar) if I remember the posts .....correctly. I'll look for them.
joel

frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

The aussie guys know a way around it, just pull up their sites on the net. You can do it, but no one here in the states have done it.
J

Bink

Here's the thread. 2 Bar MAP sensor.MAP Thread

66ImpalaLT1

So they know how to do it, but wont share, back to square one.

Bink

Do you think they might recalibrate a PCM for him?? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smartass. Maybe they would for a fee??

frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

Bink, excellent thread. I am always lurking there to see what they are doing and it seems they are way ahead of the game over there when it comes to using edit and the GM PCM.

I like this post from that link.

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:13 pm** *Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blacky wrote:
The Highlander wrote:
When you say reprogram the PCM you mean the HARDCODE of the PCM to accept boost right? Instead of 0-100kpa you get 0-200kpa or 0-300kpa tables depending on the map sensor used?

I mean the tables get bigger and have a different defintion?

Or.. you get the 0-100kpa and scale everything in half accordingly?
like... for instance... 10kpa table will = 20kpa MAP IRL?

Can this be done to the LT1?

You halve the values in the appropriate tables (all tables based on MAP).
I guess it could be done to an LT1.
Paul

"A lot more involved than just halving values Paul , Ross and I change the code as well as about 30% of the tables to be able to run 2 bar map sensors.
Took a lot of trial and error to get it to that stage and make it all work properly. the yank stuff will be running in airflow mode so 2 bar is not required as the airflow meter will provide all the relevent load points - BUT I know that no one in the US really tunes these things properly to account for the boost , they are just throwing add on boxes at it to try and fix the issues , as we all know the PCM sees through these tricks pretty effectively.

Bit like my ex wives , tell then what to do and they are happy , try and trick them and all hell used to break loose"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to have this done to my car, as it has MASSIVE potential but the damn maf is in the way, the tuning could be a lot better but the guy who does my tuning while a great tuner and all can only do so much for me over the net(mail order) There is no serious tuning shops in my state and my car suffers from it.

Eric we are not back to square one, we are in the U.S. we are Freakin the greatest country Freakin A right WE made the damn LS1? We just have been dicking around with fooling the damn PCM.... but it knows it always knows.....

I would love to send the PCM overseas but with automatics they require the car to be there so they can get the tranny working right through the PCM without the MAF DAMMIT
So when is the US tuning community going to figure all this stuff out for us dudes who just know how to work a wrench and not a edit program


J

66ImpalaLT1

I have no doubt that we can do it, the problem is that these changes require a LOT of time and effort to develop. Many people and shops do not want to dedicate that amount of time and money to reverse engineering, its just easier to get an aftermarket system.

There is so little interest in this type of work that any public project to do so turns into a commercial venture. HPTuners comes to mind. There's nothing wrong with that, it just doesnt advance the state of the art IMHO. The knowledge is what makes their product valueable so it is understandable that they may not want to make it freely available.

HPTuners is helping us out in one good way, not encrypting the flash prom image, but you'll still need to buy their "Pro" version to make the code changes required to incorporate advanced features into the pcm.

CAT3

iTrader: (9)

Heres a suggestion about the trans issues and MAF-less. Is it not easier to send the PCM to them have it tuned and negate the shift properties, instead set up a vacuum modulation? I know there are several companies offering a vacuum conversion, which will make the PCMs signal to up or down shift obsolete. As far as I know the MAF has nobearing on locking or unlocking the TCC, or does it? And if it does, cant that to be overriden by tuning the values into the PCM? Not sure, just my thought as I would love to ditch the MAF, and have it tuned ***** on.

Charlie

frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

Not.....the methods HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED and they did it with LS1edit, not some magical aussie tuning tool, so the methods to tune it this way are already in use and wouldn't require any outlay of cash to get it done as most shops that do PCM tuning already use LS1edit. HPtuner will more than likely be able to do all this too. Just need to know how. Fu@K state of the art, I want what works and the aussie know how to do it. They did it with a state of the art PCM from the state of the art powertrain with a state of the art editing program(although most would disagree) so that is state of art enough for me.
I would like to have the our Pro's do it with their Pro versions of LS1edit and HPtuners as I feel most of us shadetrees would muck up our shtuff real bad not know all the ins and outs of something like this. Its better left to the Pro's.

As for the lack of interest in this type of work, who doesn't need a edit done after a head/cam swap? Especially with the introduction of bigger cams out there on the market and the influx of guys getting into FI on the LS1 scene, the market hasn't been explored because no one has showed interest in tuning cars this way.

Most of the high HP cars in Oz are tuned without the MAF, they seem to know something about the restriction the MAF can be to our LS1 cars.

All we need to do is strike a venture with them, they seem to be very enterprising and probably will share their knowledge to our tuners if they asked. But I am sure guys like No Go can figure it out on their own. But "maybe" if a shop flies an aussie tuner over to their shop to share some tuning secrets and a few beer$$ they will cooperate and give up the info.

Keyword is Beer$$ those aussies love that stuff.

How bout it you guys from Oz? Willing to share some of that info with our tuners here in the states?

easier to get an aftermarket system? Why when our PCMs are quite capable of handling almost all that we can throw at it?(us normal guys that is) Plus why spend big money on an aftermarket system? That $$ can be used elsewhere.


Charlie, I know Cmotorsports has the option for vac modulated trannies but how would they shift with FI? I might be wrong here but I am sure Boost would screw the signal up with the vacuum modulation. I'm guessing here though
But I am glad to see that you are thinking like me too, Damn this maf I want big numbers

So the original question still is up in the air, TO YOU PRO TUNERS/SPONSORS how many of you are investigating MAFLESS tuning. All others need not speculate on what can't be done or why it hasn't, as it has... just not here in the US.

gameover

I'm an aussie and will take beer from any of you US guys any day

The main deal in Australia is that we were blessed with a factory car that came MAFless. The HSV GTS 300kw. Many of the MAFless tunes that are being done down here use this program as the basis, an interesting point is that this car actually comes factory running in the so-called "backup mode", it even sets the MAF DTC There is a ready supply of MAF pipes and enough "free horsepower" talk to last anyone a lifetime... there are some very advanced tuners who have gone the extra step and developed better speed density and other programs using their advanced knowledge of the code which is awesome stuff but also others who are gettting into the 85mm MAF scene.

I'm also part owner and code monkey at HPTuners and I agree with the idea of open discussion on lots of these issues (obviously thats how we started out) and developing tools that people can use to get to that extra detail level if they desire. We aren't secretive about calibration related things cos at the end of the day it's not that hard to work it out if we aren't encrypting things. I think it will make for a better understanding for all at the end of the day and certainly many long and hard to understand threads on forums like this I'll continue posting here and over at our site info as i get time to, and I always reserve the right to be wrong if someone can tell me what is right...

66ImpalaLT1

Thats not true, there's no way they changed CODE to account for a 2 bar map with LS1Edit. No way at all for them to use additional outputs on the pcm with LS1Edit. Read that post about what Starr Performance is doing, no way at all they're using LS1Edit.

LS1Edit lets you change parameters, not add features that GM didnt create in the first place.

Bink

^^ = Fact. joel

Plan B

Urban Myths about Speed Density Tuning…. ***Dispelled***

The MAF doesn’t control the A4. If the engine is tuned correctly the Transmission works fine. I have seen over 200 A4 cars tuned without the MAF and it doesn’t require anything other than the use of edit. Many of these cars have cams that would make most tuners cry. They all drive very nice.

Tuning an LS1 in speed density is all about tuning the engine perfectly. The MAF is in the system for the vanilla tunes from the factory. Sure we have some factory born hybrid LS1’s over here which have been delivered with heads, cam and no MAF. But these base programs are never ever used by the tuners who really know what they are doing.

Folk’s it is all in there, yep and all accessible with Edit alone. Regardless of what some of the smoke and mirror tuners on this planet may tell you. There is no secret switch hidden somewhere deep within the PCM that will turn on the light and give you eternal happiness and there certainly isn’t any magical VE formula that can all of a sudden make it happen for the lap top tuning junkies. Check out some of J-Rods recent posts after his visit over here. He saw quite a bit of stuff and it was all there to see and discuss. Beer isn’t an option…There are no secrets about it. It’s only tuning an engine for goodness sake and that can’t be to hard can it? Or is it?

Tuning should be a simple exercise and indeed it is. Anyone who has spent a little time tuning an LS1 would certainly understand that the ignition timing is the easy part of tuning and the whole speed density thing relates to the correct AFR. Here comes the problem;

In order to tune an EFI engine correctly you need to be able to hold a load/rpm and move through the throttle position point by point. So that is RPM, hold it and move through the TPS point by point 5% at a time then move the RPM up another 500 and do it again. How hard is that? It isn’t a carburetor engine and the Dyno shouldn’t be designed around a carburetor. (like lets just stomp on it and watch this)

The preferred chassis and engine dynamometers used over here are able to hold load points and log information via the OBDII port and other sensors from the dyno. Graphs, tables and all the info from all the sensors at real time is delivered in graphical displays and table form to match the tuning software. After all the logged runs are taken in, you can simply move the cursor over the graphs and all the OBDII and other sensor data is displayed in what ever format you like to read.

Now that is a small taste of tuning. It works too….

Can it be done via Mail order…. No Way!

BOO HOO BRIAN

iTrader: (-10)

We can do a mafless ls1 car.

Plan B

Sure you can. Get Chris to call me btw, He has my number. Thanks.

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

<------ The guy searching for the magical VE formula and avid MAF proponent


I goofed with the MAFless thing when it first became the rage, but went back to MAF tuning after we were able to get the big cam cars to run properly with the MAF. We use 85mm or larger MAF's on the big buildups and don't have problems with MAF restriction.

We now use a hybrid method of MAFless down low and MAF up top to get the BIG BIG cam cars to run properly. It works well and doesn't hold up the dyno for a day.

Personally, I have yet to see a REALLY good argument for pulling the MAF on most vehicles. You can get almost anything to run well with an MAF.

Just my .02

Plan B

When you get there, you will dump the MAF.