Can we discuss lambda vs afr?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Tuning a 411 PCM is about THE easiest thing you'll ever do, especially when most widebands put you on 14.7 automatically. Its like retarded simple. Over-thinkers over complicate things. I am not that person. I'm currently tuning my first boosted setup (from scratch) and keeping with the simple formula is making it a breeze.
Staging Lane
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: chicagoland
O2 sensor doesn't care what fuel its running. It doesn't even know. It will make adjustments to run a commanded 14.7:1 AFR, or Lamda 1. E85 is 9.765 AFR or Lambda 1 at stoichiometric. So your O2 just looks for Lambda, not AFR. AFR reading is what you have selected in tuning software and what gauge you bought. If you convert to E85 and think stoichiometric should be at 14.7, your gonna be disappointed. Like mentioned previously, Lambda 1 is stoich for all fuels and is easier for guys that are tuning different fuels and blends.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
O2 sensor doesn't care what fuel its running. It doesn't even know. It will make adjustments to run a commanded 14.7:1 AFR, or Lamda 1. E85 is 9.765 AFR or Lambda 1 at stoichiometric. So your O2 just looks for Lambda, not AFR. AFR reading is what you have selected in tuning software and what gauge you bought. If you convert to E85 and think stoichiometric should be at 14.7, your gonna be disappointed. Like mentioned previously, Lambda 1 is stoich for all fuels and is easier for guys that are tuning different fuels and blends.
Direct from NGK. My autometer is identical also.
The AFX is compatible with fuels other than gasoline. The AFX’s display is designed to
show AFR values based on a gasoline scale with 14.57:1 AFR as the stoichiometric ratio.
The display will simply show AFR on a gasoline scale even though the fuel used may
have different properties (stoichiometry for methanol is approximately 6.5:1). As long as
you understand this, interpreting the values should be easy.
The same principle applies to other fuels such as ethanol, propane, CNG, LPG, etc. The
display will simply read on a gasoline scale.
Again this is very simple. Stoich (whatever it may be) IS 14.7 on the gauge when hit perfectly. Command 14.7, correct fueling tables to 14.7, and thats it.
Staging Lane
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: chicagoland
Here, I don’t wanna get into a pissing match about how you tune your vehicle. I’ve met and talked with Keith, the owner of HPTuners. I’ve been to his house as my brother did the electric in his house and his business in Buffalo Grove IL. He talked me out of going with EFILive. I’m not saying I’m right and your wrong or I’m wrong and your right but I don’t want you to make any mistakes while tuning if you decide to go to E85 or you wanna adjust for blends. Lamda is the only way to know your at stoich. Please just give it a read.
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...EQ)-Discussion
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...EQ)-Discussion
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Here, I don’t wanna get into a pissing match about how you tune your vehicle. I’ve met and talked with Keith, the owner of HPTuners. I’ve been to his house as my brother did the electric in his house and his business in Buffalo Grove IL. He talked me out of going with EFILive. I’m not saying I’m right and your wrong or I’m wrong and your right but I don’t want you to make any mistakes while tuning if you decide to go to E85 or you wanna adjust for blends. Lamda is the only way to know your at stoich. Please just give it a read.
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...EQ)-Discussion
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...EQ)-Discussion
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
^^^^exactly. Stoich is what it is, but the wideband takes stoich and converts it to the familiar gas AFR of 14.7 stoich. So hit 14.7 on your display and its dead nuts perfect.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Maybe you could, NOT CHANGE YOUR AFR TO 9.7 WHILE TUNING. Oh **** whoop whoop whos da man????? 
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 17
From: So.Cal.
In fairness, I'm able to create a calculated pid to just take care of it
( the PCM does have a pid for commanded EQR; multiplying this by wideband lambda (which can be easily calculated from wideaband voltage) gives the correction multiplier )
so it just reduces to a simple matter.
( the PCM does have a pid for commanded EQR; multiplying this by wideband lambda (which can be easily calculated from wideaband voltage) gives the correction multiplier )
so it just reduces to a simple matter.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 371
Likes: 18
From: switzerland
Hi Cody, good question AND PREFECT "tech" by Subeone.
I too have a Horiba UEGO Meter used to calibrate my ECU-882 "look-up" tables.
YES again, I tune with Lambda @ .891-.903 as common with .781-.863 for SC engines in most cases.
My ECU-882 can specify the AFR number requested in the "units" table.
WE do many AFR's such as Meth, E-100, E-85, NG, Propane, etc.
MY CONCERN is for Cody's LM-2 as the Innovate method is to "toss" the UEGO Calibration Resistor.
I Invented the Four Wire EGO for NTK using my bench dyno, and TWO sensors in the same pipe at the same time. (one EGO three wire AND one UEGO semsor)
I added a ground wire to the body of the EGO (three wire now four wire) with the "read" better than the UEGO, much faster.
My method was to ADD a scope leed to the 0-1 volt output with witness of EACH Cylinders firing Lambda measurement better than the UEGO. (1980's)
The LM-1 was invented later and tested with the same test, one pipe with TWO sensors.
The "read" was MUCH different when the Horiba UEGO/Innovate UEGO were reported with the LM-1/2 read as a 12.00 AND proper read of the Horiba as 13.00 AFR.
This report was provided to NTK with the "repair" method of creating their OWN BRAND AFRM.
I tested one of the first, on my bench dyno finding the AFRM/Horiba as EQUAL in the AFR report.
I fit the NTK "hot start" sensors most often AND when used in an engine with normal operating conditions, they work VERY well with a cost of $ 65.00.
Lance
I too have a Horiba UEGO Meter used to calibrate my ECU-882 "look-up" tables.
YES again, I tune with Lambda @ .891-.903 as common with .781-.863 for SC engines in most cases.
My ECU-882 can specify the AFR number requested in the "units" table.
WE do many AFR's such as Meth, E-100, E-85, NG, Propane, etc.
MY CONCERN is for Cody's LM-2 as the Innovate method is to "toss" the UEGO Calibration Resistor.
I Invented the Four Wire EGO for NTK using my bench dyno, and TWO sensors in the same pipe at the same time. (one EGO three wire AND one UEGO semsor)
I added a ground wire to the body of the EGO (three wire now four wire) with the "read" better than the UEGO, much faster.
My method was to ADD a scope leed to the 0-1 volt output with witness of EACH Cylinders firing Lambda measurement better than the UEGO. (1980's)
The LM-1 was invented later and tested with the same test, one pipe with TWO sensors.
The "read" was MUCH different when the Horiba UEGO/Innovate UEGO were reported with the LM-1/2 read as a 12.00 AND proper read of the Horiba as 13.00 AFR.
This report was provided to NTK with the "repair" method of creating their OWN BRAND AFRM.
I tested one of the first, on my bench dyno finding the AFRM/Horiba as EQUAL in the AFR report.
I fit the NTK "hot start" sensors most often AND when used in an engine with normal operating conditions, they work VERY well with a cost of $ 65.00.
Lance
UEGO Calibration Resistor Hi Dian, when the UEGO sensor is manufactured/tested/calibrated AT THE FACTORY, a resistor is supplied on the sensor side connector, inside a square box.
Lance
Lance