Open Loop Tuning W/O Wide Band
07-13-2004, 08:27 PM
#41
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Bink: 
02RedHawk:
JR:
*shakes head, walks away*
Everything JR posted in the last message is right out of a GM book -- and really doesn't apply to the conversation at hand. Back to the original topic in the thread, you simply CANNOT and SHOULD NOT attempt to tune WOT or high load with a narrow band O2 sensor. GM didn't do it, we don't do it, the PCM doesn't attempt to do it, its not smart, its not accurate, but hey -- if JR does it more power to him..
02RedHawk:
JR:
*shakes head, walks away*Everything JR posted in the last message is right out of a GM book -- and really doesn't apply to the conversation at hand. Back to the original topic in the thread, you simply CANNOT and SHOULD NOT attempt to tune WOT or high load with a narrow band O2 sensor. GM didn't do it, we don't do it, the PCM doesn't attempt to do it, its not smart, its not accurate, but hey -- if JR does it more power to him..
07-13-2004, 11:23 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Predator
Of course everyone wants you to believe that you need to go out and buy that nifty LM-1, or buy dyno time, or drop a wad of cash at Johnny Rocket's tuning center.
See the problem is you guys keep changing the rules as your methods are questioned, first we were told just use the NBO2 readings to get the AFR's, well, we've shown (with proof) that a NBO2 reading 0.9ishV is a ballpark guess at anywhere from 10:1 to 14:1.
Next pops up the DELTORQ PID argument....oh by the way, do YOU know what the PCM actually uses that PID for?? (Can I hear a GM Manual being opened). Have you had an LS1 running on an Engine dyno and 'measured' the torque v's the PCM calculated Torque?.
What if the PCM has calculated the torque to be 320ft/lbs and you are running 12.8AFR, you keep leaning it out and it reports 345ft/lbs but it's now running 13:9AFR, do you really want to run it there??.
In the end it's not so much trying to educate you guys, some people do not listen, but for the newbies on here that go out and buy a $30 LED O2 monitor kit from a hobbyist shop and tune with it hopefully now they might think twice.
Funny how some Euro car makers are now using WBO2's, stupid fools...
In the end if YOU want to guess tune your motor then go for it, personally, I really like to MEASURE (not guess) my WOT AFR's. Until now I have never heard of a workshop that doesn't tune without a WBO2.
The only time I would not use a WBO2 is when all the fueling parameters in the PCM have been setup for an engine combo so when I commanded 12.8 and I measured 12.8 then I could safely change the PE table and know that is what is was actually going to run at.
Originally Posted by Team ZR-1
Riceburners use them cause those popgun engines have to crank out twice the amount of RPMs as a real engine.
I'm with you on that one..
07-14-2004, 08:50 AM
#43
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The original post was asking if it was possible to tune without O2 data using Autotap, and for me, it WAS possible using EASE and LS1 Edit.
I've only needed to spend $550. for Edit, and $325. for EASE. Relatively inexpensive, and simple. I did purchase one dyno tuning session which turned-out to be unnecessary. Taking this route is definitely at odds with the sponsors, and many contributors here, selling goods and services. And the STRONG peer pressure, here, to tune in a way that is profitable for the sponsors, and many contributors here, is self-evident and obvious. I never considered that a "scam," but let's just call it "peer pressure, and discrediting information that is at odds with profit."
Sure, you can tune using Edit, then dumping Edit for HP Tuners, adding an Innovate LM-1, or purchasing lots of dyno time, and even enlisting the help of professional tuners to help you use your tuning tools. Is it necessay? No. Is it good for business? Yes.
The good news is that if you're interested in keeping your tuning costs down, just an Editor and a copy of EASE, plus some research and study, will get the job done. The bad news is that if you're using EASE you will be ostracized here, and not get much help, if any. People certainly aren't buying Autotap/EFLive because it's a superior product.
I've only needed to spend $550. for Edit, and $325. for EASE. Relatively inexpensive, and simple. I did purchase one dyno tuning session which turned-out to be unnecessary. Taking this route is definitely at odds with the sponsors, and many contributors here, selling goods and services. And the STRONG peer pressure, here, to tune in a way that is profitable for the sponsors, and many contributors here, is self-evident and obvious. I never considered that a "scam," but let's just call it "peer pressure, and discrediting information that is at odds with profit."
Sure, you can tune using Edit, then dumping Edit for HP Tuners, adding an Innovate LM-1, or purchasing lots of dyno time, and even enlisting the help of professional tuners to help you use your tuning tools. Is it necessay? No. Is it good for business? Yes.
The good news is that if you're interested in keeping your tuning costs down, just an Editor and a copy of EASE, plus some research and study, will get the job done. The bad news is that if you're using EASE you will be ostracized here, and not get much help, if any. People certainly aren't buying Autotap/EFLive because it's a superior product.
07-14-2004, 10:26 AM
#46
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Predator -- no offense to you personally whatsoever, but the level of modification you have taken your car to lends itself to not really needing much tuning at all -- save for the 30lb. injectors (assuming this list is correct):
Your dyno results aren't indicative of much/any gain from tuning, and I'm not even sure why you felt the 30lb. injectors were necessary. The factory 2000 model year injectors flow plenty of fuel to support your 326 RWHP, and are a more efficient injector at low pulsewidths than the FMS.
This discussion is suited more to the folks who have extensive levels of work done to their cars. Take mine, for example:
370cid iron block (Stock crank, Lunati 6.125" H-beams, JE flat pistons w/ 2cc reliefs)
238/240 .605/.609 112+2 Comp XE-R grind camshaft
Stage 2 ported heads, 2.02 / 1.57 valves
30lb. FMS injectors
Walbro 255lph in-tank fuel pump
LS6 intake
EGR, AIR removed
Hooker Long tube headers, no cats, 3" to 3-1/2" Y-pipe, cutout, reducer to 3", into Hooker catback
180HP NXL nitrous kit
Underdrive pulley, 4.11's in the 12 bolt, SPEC stage 4 clutch, suspension junk, yadda yadda yadda.
With a car such as mine, you've taken the engine so far away from the stock tune you simply CANNOT rely *at all* on what the stock narrow band O2 sensors are telling you. At idle, it will trend so lean the car falls on its face when trying to take off from a light. At cruise, with enough RPM it will be a couple tenths of a point on the rich side -- not even at 14.737 like the PCM stoich scalar is set to. At WOT, its VERY rich.
2000 TRANS AM/ M6 (Silver Metallic): LS6 Intake, FTRA, MTI Lid/ K&N, JBA Headers, RT Y-pipe/ RT Hi-Flo Cats, Loudmouth Exhaust, BMR Tubular SFCs, BMR Adj. Panhard Rod, BMR STB, BMR Boxed LCAs, 17x9 Firehawk Chrome Wheels, Bilstein Shocks, Eibach Springs, KVR Rotors & KVR Pads, SVO 30# Injectors
DYNOJET: 326.1 RWHP (SAE)/ 332.1 RWTQ (SAE)
DYNOJET: 326.1 RWHP (SAE)/ 332.1 RWTQ (SAE)
This discussion is suited more to the folks who have extensive levels of work done to their cars. Take mine, for example:
370cid iron block (Stock crank, Lunati 6.125" H-beams, JE flat pistons w/ 2cc reliefs)
238/240 .605/.609 112+2 Comp XE-R grind camshaft
Stage 2 ported heads, 2.02 / 1.57 valves
30lb. FMS injectors
Walbro 255lph in-tank fuel pump
LS6 intake
EGR, AIR removed
Hooker Long tube headers, no cats, 3" to 3-1/2" Y-pipe, cutout, reducer to 3", into Hooker catback
180HP NXL nitrous kit
Underdrive pulley, 4.11's in the 12 bolt, SPEC stage 4 clutch, suspension junk, yadda yadda yadda.
With a car such as mine, you've taken the engine so far away from the stock tune you simply CANNOT rely *at all* on what the stock narrow band O2 sensors are telling you. At idle, it will trend so lean the car falls on its face when trying to take off from a light. At cruise, with enough RPM it will be a couple tenths of a point on the rich side -- not even at 14.737 like the PCM stoich scalar is set to. At WOT, its VERY rich.
07-14-2004, 11:00 AM
#47
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The C6 does not use WB, check the 2005 C6 service manual, in part says:
2005 Chevrolet Corvette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Circuit Description
Heated oxygen sensors (HO2S) are used for fuel control and post catalyst monitoring. Each HO2S compares the oxygen content of the surrounding air with the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. The HO2S must reach operating temperature to provide an accurate voltage signal. Heating elements inside the HO2S minimize the time required for the sensors to reach operating temperature. The engine control module (ECM) supplies the HO2S with a reference, or bias, voltage of about 450 mV. When the engine is first started the ECM operates in Open Loop, ignoring the HO2S voltage signal. Once the HO2S reaches operating temperature and Closed Loop is achieved, the HO2S generates a voltage within a range of 0-1,000 mV that fluctuates above and below bias voltage. High HO2S voltage indicates a rich exhaust stream. Low HO2S voltage indicates a lean exhaust stream. If the ECM detects an HO2S voltage that stays below a specified value.
---------------
Again I stated you ONLY use an 02 as a guide mark to determine if the changes made in calibration were in the right direction, neither a NB or WB should be the sole decision point if the AFR is where you want it.
EPA owns the O2s, they are a SMOG device, even they say the O2s are not required for WOT, GM, SAE and the PCM do not use them so why are you ?
A WB is no more accurate then a NB for what they report also dictates as to the quality of the exhaust system, any exhaust leaks, if the O2 is mounted at the correct distance from the heads, if the exhaust was heat coated and the age of the O2.
Lastly sticking a WB in a cold muffler tip or to only one exhaust side reports a worse outut then what the NB's do.
2005 Chevrolet Corvette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Circuit Description
Heated oxygen sensors (HO2S) are used for fuel control and post catalyst monitoring. Each HO2S compares the oxygen content of the surrounding air with the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. The HO2S must reach operating temperature to provide an accurate voltage signal. Heating elements inside the HO2S minimize the time required for the sensors to reach operating temperature. The engine control module (ECM) supplies the HO2S with a reference, or bias, voltage of about 450 mV. When the engine is first started the ECM operates in Open Loop, ignoring the HO2S voltage signal. Once the HO2S reaches operating temperature and Closed Loop is achieved, the HO2S generates a voltage within a range of 0-1,000 mV that fluctuates above and below bias voltage. High HO2S voltage indicates a rich exhaust stream. Low HO2S voltage indicates a lean exhaust stream. If the ECM detects an HO2S voltage that stays below a specified value.
---------------
Again I stated you ONLY use an 02 as a guide mark to determine if the changes made in calibration were in the right direction, neither a NB or WB should be the sole decision point if the AFR is where you want it.
EPA owns the O2s, they are a SMOG device, even they say the O2s are not required for WOT, GM, SAE and the PCM do not use them so why are you ?
A WB is no more accurate then a NB for what they report also dictates as to the quality of the exhaust system, any exhaust leaks, if the O2 is mounted at the correct distance from the heads, if the exhaust was heat coated and the age of the O2.
Lastly sticking a WB in a cold muffler tip or to only one exhaust side reports a worse outut then what the NB's do.
Originally Posted by J-Rod
Possible, but not recommended. Its possible to tune a car with no data whatsoever on it, your results may very though...
Right and wrong. Yes a WB measures A/F ACCURATELY over a wider range than a convetional o2 which is only good around stoich where it ossiclates (switches) rapidly. Other than that, its not what I would call super accurate. Not can all 02 readings be considered gospel. (I.E. .880-.890 is perfect A/F)
A 1V switching O2 sensor signals "Lean" whenever the voltage is less than 450mV and "Rich" whenever the voltage is above 450mV. It will never provide an actual 450mV unless it's dead, in which case you're seeing the 450mV bias voltage supplied by the ECU to detect this situation. One cannot, in general, assign any particular A/F ratio to some voltage reading from the sensor. On one new sensor, 800mV might actually correspond to 14.0:1 A/F ratio but, on another identical new sensor from the same manufacturer, 800mV might correspond to 13.0:1 A/F ratio. This is because manufacturers (and ECMs) don't care what happens in the "tails." All they care about is that there exists an abrupt and significant voltage change when passing through stoichiometric that is centered on 450mV. Even for a given sensor, 800mV can mean different A/F ratios, depending on when the measurement is taken, because the shape of the "tails" is affected by both temperature and pressure.
The only exception to the above that I'm aware of is the Bosch LSM-11 O2 sensor, which was designed for use in A/F analyzers. Bosch engineers have developed precise response curves for this sensor as well as temperature and pressure correction tables and each sensor is checked at the factory to insure it conforms. Of course you'll need a few thousand dollars to buy such an analyzer (e.g ETAS LA-2).
The bottom line with 1V switching O2 sensors is that you only need two lights, one for Rich (i.e. above 450mV) and one for Lean (below 450mV). Attaching any other meaning to the sensor's voltage level is a fool's errand.
Maybe on one car, but maybe not on another...
That is the most ridiculous comment I have ever seen with regards to an 02 sensor. Would you apply the same logic to the new C6 which is shipping with WB from the factory? Its going to rev more than an Ls1 so its needs a "wider" sensor...
Go buy a wideband, or go to the DIY WB o2 site... http://www.diy-wb.com
Right and wrong. Yes a WB measures A/F ACCURATELY over a wider range than a convetional o2 which is only good around stoich where it ossiclates (switches) rapidly. Other than that, its not what I would call super accurate. Not can all 02 readings be considered gospel. (I.E. .880-.890 is perfect A/F)
A 1V switching O2 sensor signals "Lean" whenever the voltage is less than 450mV and "Rich" whenever the voltage is above 450mV. It will never provide an actual 450mV unless it's dead, in which case you're seeing the 450mV bias voltage supplied by the ECU to detect this situation. One cannot, in general, assign any particular A/F ratio to some voltage reading from the sensor. On one new sensor, 800mV might actually correspond to 14.0:1 A/F ratio but, on another identical new sensor from the same manufacturer, 800mV might correspond to 13.0:1 A/F ratio. This is because manufacturers (and ECMs) don't care what happens in the "tails." All they care about is that there exists an abrupt and significant voltage change when passing through stoichiometric that is centered on 450mV. Even for a given sensor, 800mV can mean different A/F ratios, depending on when the measurement is taken, because the shape of the "tails" is affected by both temperature and pressure.
The only exception to the above that I'm aware of is the Bosch LSM-11 O2 sensor, which was designed for use in A/F analyzers. Bosch engineers have developed precise response curves for this sensor as well as temperature and pressure correction tables and each sensor is checked at the factory to insure it conforms. Of course you'll need a few thousand dollars to buy such an analyzer (e.g ETAS LA-2).
The bottom line with 1V switching O2 sensors is that you only need two lights, one for Rich (i.e. above 450mV) and one for Lean (below 450mV). Attaching any other meaning to the sensor's voltage level is a fool's errand.
Maybe on one car, but maybe not on another...
That is the most ridiculous comment I have ever seen with regards to an 02 sensor. Would you apply the same logic to the new C6 which is shipping with WB from the factory? Its going to rev more than an Ls1 so its needs a "wider" sensor...
Go buy a wideband, or go to the DIY WB o2 site... http://www.diy-wb.com
07-14-2004, 11:06 AM
#48
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Hey Blinky you do not know what your talking about, if you cannot understand the simple process of why there is a LOW OCTANE timing table then you should not be mucking around with the PCM for its simple knowledge that the C5 has a bad gas (low octane) protection and resets that function when gas has been added.
FACT research GM service documents, they even clearly say not to do certain tests when the fuel is under a quarter of a tank for the PCM functons differently when low fuel or bad fuel conditions.
FACT research GM service documents, they even clearly say not to do certain tests when the fuel is under a quarter of a tank for the PCM functons differently when low fuel or bad fuel conditions.
Originally Posted by Bink
Anyone remember the LS1Edit mailing list fiascos?
Yes, I do remember a couple of them.
Do you remember the 5 gallons of gas to throw the PCM back to the High Octane table?? Fetumpsh was tenacious as a pit bull on dispelling that one.
Excellent, accurate and persuasive info.
Thanks guys.
joel
Yes, I do remember a couple of them.
Do you remember the 5 gallons of gas to throw the PCM back to the High Octane table?? Fetumpsh was tenacious as a pit bull on dispelling that one.
Excellent, accurate and persuasive info.
Thanks guys. joel
07-14-2004, 11:28 AM
#49
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Come on, read all the 100's of cyberspace posts of people chasing their tails even using a WB or screwing around with a VE table and still canot get a proper tune, why cause of junk like this "must use a WB and tune off a static dyno"
THere are many other functions in the PCM via OBD-II that allow someone to tune correctly without a WB or a static dyno.
FACT is people claiming the PCM maintains a stoch is not valid for if 14.7:1 was maintained then people would not be seeing fuel trims such as -10 or +20 !
The PCM attempts/commands a AFR but even EPA understands with the early 1990's PCMs it could not maintain stoch and reason why the PCM ONLY has to be within 1.5 of the FTP and to prove that look at when EPA triggers a rich DTC which is -13 and lean DTC of +22.
Hell for 80 years cars never had any O2's and did just fine, it's a smog device, not a tuning tool !
THere are many other functions in the PCM via OBD-II that allow someone to tune correctly without a WB or a static dyno.
FACT is people claiming the PCM maintains a stoch is not valid for if 14.7:1 was maintained then people would not be seeing fuel trims such as -10 or +20 !
The PCM attempts/commands a AFR but even EPA understands with the early 1990's PCMs it could not maintain stoch and reason why the PCM ONLY has to be within 1.5 of the FTP and to prove that look at when EPA triggers a rich DTC which is -13 and lean DTC of +22.
Hell for 80 years cars never had any O2's and did just fine, it's a smog device, not a tuning tool !
Originally Posted by Fetumpsh
Quick somebody call GM, Motec, Bosch.......they are wasting time and money with WBO2's, all you need is to monitor a PID that is nothing more than a 'calculation' of Torque, not measured.
Next thing you guys will be telling us is EGT sensors are a waste of time because the PCM can 'calculate' Cat Temps, it's gotta be close right??.
I dunno, you Ease guys do stick togeather alright.....
Next thing you guys will be telling us is EGT sensors are a waste of time because the PCM can 'calculate' Cat Temps, it's gotta be close right??.
I dunno, you Ease guys do stick togeather alright.....
07-14-2004, 11:32 AM
#50
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Hi Folks
I believe you can tune with the NB O2 sensor but you will not get the accuracy or the resolution from the NB as with a WB. I just purchased a Innovate WB sensor - I hope to install it when it comes and log some data. Once I log some data, I will see what happens with the NB O2 vs the WB and report the results.
Everybody is getting too personal about this subject. What works for you may not work for somebody else but who is to say the other person is off base?
Bill
I believe you can tune with the NB O2 sensor but you will not get the accuracy or the resolution from the NB as with a WB. I just purchased a Innovate WB sensor - I hope to install it when it comes and log some data. Once I log some data, I will see what happens with the NB O2 vs the WB and report the results.
Everybody is getting too personal about this subject. What works for you may not work for somebody else but who is to say the other person is off base?
Bill
07-14-2004, 11:43 AM
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Well for you maybe you cannot understand how to tune when there is over 200 GM enhanced PIDs to work from.
SO let's see you stick a WB in a muffler tip or to one exaust pipe and it tells you everything, give me a break, you might find it neat to play with all those graphs with your scanner but if you really spend the effort in analyzing the OBD-II data it would be telling you what the tune requires.
I left my tune alone for 1 year, I scanned it once a month to see if there were any long term changes.
One year later when to a dyno and low and behold the calibration was exactly where I set it and opps, the AFR by a WB on the dyno was a 12.4:1 so it seems tuning without a wideband does the job.
Shooting for a magic AFR is nuts, every powertrain makeup is different, so is driving style, where the car is located, what type of crap is in the smog gas, engine compression, etc, etc
so shooting for a certain AFR as the wrong path for the final outcome is how much PE timing can be used without being rejected by the knock processes
and that takes you right back in reading what the PCM is telling you, not some WB.
SO let's see you stick a WB in a muffler tip or to one exaust pipe and it tells you everything, give me a break, you might find it neat to play with all those graphs with your scanner but if you really spend the effort in analyzing the OBD-II data it would be telling you what the tune requires.
I left my tune alone for 1 year, I scanned it once a month to see if there were any long term changes.
One year later when to a dyno and low and behold the calibration was exactly where I set it and opps, the AFR by a WB on the dyno was a 12.4:1 so it seems tuning without a wideband does the job.
Shooting for a magic AFR is nuts, every powertrain makeup is different, so is driving style, where the car is located, what type of crap is in the smog gas, engine compression, etc, etc
so shooting for a certain AFR as the wrong path for the final outcome is how much PE timing can be used without being rejected by the knock processes
and that takes you right back in reading what the PCM is telling you, not some WB.
Originally Posted by Bink
Once I went fishing with a 6 ft piece of line and a hook. No bait. I hung over a dock and caught 13 - 14 fish. True story.
What does this have to do with this thread?
My fishing technique happened to be successful due to very special circumstances. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It did work though.
Tuning Part throttle and WOT with Stock O2s and a scanner (NO Wideband) is alot like fishing without bait. Not very exact...but it might work....given the right circumstances.
The downside to fishing without bait -> no fish.
The downside to Tuning WOT with Stock O2s and a scanner (NO Wideband) -> no motor.
What does this have to do with this thread?
My fishing technique happened to be successful due to very special circumstances. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It did work though.
Tuning Part throttle and WOT with Stock O2s and a scanner (NO Wideband) is alot like fishing without bait. Not very exact...but it might work....given the right circumstances.
The downside to fishing without bait -> no fish.
The downside to Tuning WOT with Stock O2s and a scanner (NO Wideband) -> no motor.
07-14-2004, 11:44 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Team ZR-1
The C6 does not use WB, check the 2005 C6 service manual, in part says:
I am pretty sure no one made a mention of the C6 using a WBo2. A reference was made where WB's were used during WOT testing. Key word in that sentence testing
07-14-2004, 11:52 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by Team ZR-1
Well for you maybe you cannot understand how to tune when there is over 200 GM enhanced PIDs to work from.
SO let's see you stick a WB in a muffler tip or to one exaust pipe and it tells you everything, give me a break, you might find it neat to play with all those graphs with your scanner but if you really spend the effort in analyzing the OBD-II data it would be telling you what the tune requires.
SO let's see you stick a WB in a muffler tip or to one exaust pipe and it tells you everything, give me a break, you might find it neat to play with all those graphs with your scanner but if you really spend the effort in analyzing the OBD-II data it would be telling you what the tune requires.
I left my tune alone for 1 year, I scanned it once a month to see if there were any long term changes.
One year later when to a dyno and low and behold the calibration was exactly where I set it and opps, the AFR by a WB on the dyno was a 12.4:1 so it seems tuning without a wideband does the job.
One year later when to a dyno and low and behold the calibration was exactly where I set it and opps, the AFR by a WB on the dyno was a 12.4:1 so it seems tuning without a wideband does the job.
Shooting for a magic AFR is nuts, every powertrain makeup is different, so is driving style, where the car is located, what type of crap is in the smog gas, engine compression, etc, etc
so shooting for a certain AFR as the wrong path for the final outcome is how much PE timing can be used without being rejected by the knock processes
and that takes you right back in reading what the PCM is telling you, not some WB.
so shooting for a certain AFR as the wrong path for the final outcome is how much PE timing can be used without being rejected by the knock processes
and that takes you right back in reading what the PCM is telling you, not some WB.
No one is shooting for the magic afr a WB just like the dyno provides a REFERNCE POINT. You take that information and use it to make the best power out of your tune. How hard is that to understand? No ever said to use the WB as a set it and forget it method.
Me thinks at times your reading comprehension is off?
07-14-2004, 11:53 AM
#54
Originally Posted by Team ZR-1
Hey Blinky you do not know what your talking about, if you cannot understand the simple process of why there is a LOW OCTANE timing table then you should not be mucking around with the PCM for its simple knowledge that the C5 has a bad gas (low octane) protection and resets that function when gas has been added.
FACT research GM service documents, they even clearly say not to do certain tests when the fuel is under a quarter of a tank for the PCM functons differently when low fuel or bad fuel conditions.
FACT research GM service documents, they even clearly say not to do certain tests when the fuel is under a quarter of a tank for the PCM functons differently when low fuel or bad fuel conditions.
I know what I understand to be reliable information. Reliable info from experts/professionals. Info that is scientifically applied and tested. Kind of like quantum physics......I accept the experts/professionals' opinions, testing and judgement.
This knowledge is available to you also ->Knowledge
joel
07-14-2004, 11:56 AM
#55
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Someone posted a link to an article on many of the new WB o2 going into passenger cars. It cited the C6 in the article, but I can't find the link to the article.
Anyhow, the best way to tune for WOT is how my buddies in Australia do it. They tune under a load with an Eddy Current dyno. In fact they set their Speed Density tuning to not look at o2 values on the lower rpms because they feel that you can't get the ideal A/F ratios, as the stock o2s are only good ( and reliable ) @ 14.7.
Tuning under no load on a dyno is going to vary from what you see under little or no load (like on a DynoJet).
All I can say is that a blind pig will find a truffle once in awhile. I'd be interested in see ing how you WOT tuning looks when you place a WB in line with it... I'm sure you believe in what you are doing, I can't honestly say that I have any faith whasoever in its reliability.
I think the danger in what you are proposing is the offset in cost of $350 for a WB vs blowing up your motor and paying to R&R it. Let me ask a simple question. With all this loggin you have done have you ever put up your NB vs a WB properly placed in the exhaust gas stream?
Anyhow, the best way to tune for WOT is how my buddies in Australia do it. They tune under a load with an Eddy Current dyno. In fact they set their Speed Density tuning to not look at o2 values on the lower rpms because they feel that you can't get the ideal A/F ratios, as the stock o2s are only good ( and reliable ) @ 14.7.
Tuning under no load on a dyno is going to vary from what you see under little or no load (like on a DynoJet).
All I can say is that a blind pig will find a truffle once in awhile. I'd be interested in see ing how you WOT tuning looks when you place a WB in line with it... I'm sure you believe in what you are doing, I can't honestly say that I have any faith whasoever in its reliability.
I think the danger in what you are proposing is the offset in cost of $350 for a WB vs blowing up your motor and paying to R&R it. Let me ask a simple question. With all this loggin you have done have you ever put up your NB vs a WB properly placed in the exhaust gas stream?
07-14-2004, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HumpinSS
You forgot to add and post TRQ numbers generated from a caluclated pid
(never mind that mine says the motor makes 365HP and runs mid 11's at 3720 lbs. N/A)
(also never mind what the PIDs show with a nitrous motor)
07-14-2004, 02:55 PM
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I have to admit that this is kind of a fun thread with everyone f****** with each other. 
Hey Brains, you'd be surprised how much tuning I needed. MY LTFTs were throwing lean codes; I was super rich at PE/WOT, plus needing to adjust the IFR table for the larger injectors (BTW, my duty cycle was near 100% at higher rpms). So I still needed to scale the PE vs RPM table to have a good tune. Plus all the basic stuff like code deletion, fan temps, etc. Basically the same stuff you'd do with a more modified car. I can't believe you dug out my signature.
That's right, no cam yet. 
Anyway, some folks can reach their destination with just verbal directions; other folks need a map and a navigation system too, plus the verbal directions.
Hey Brains, you'd be surprised how much tuning I needed. MY LTFTs were throwing lean codes; I was super rich at PE/WOT, plus needing to adjust the IFR table for the larger injectors (BTW, my duty cycle was near 100% at higher rpms). So I still needed to scale the PE vs RPM table to have a good tune. Plus all the basic stuff like code deletion, fan temps, etc. Basically the same stuff you'd do with a more modified car. I can't believe you dug out my signature.
That's right, no cam yet. Anyway, some folks can reach their destination with just verbal directions; other folks need a map and a navigation system too, plus the verbal directions.