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Go check out my guides, they break it down pretty step by step for you.
I watched the first video, it is very good, although there are a lot of steps & many changes can't be made in isolation without changing others, I was a little lost where you get the new data from when you make a change as there are so many variables. For example when an engine takes in more air than stock, where does it tell you how much more fuel it needs so you can enter the new values? Re before and after values so some of the guesswork is taken out?
I watched the first video, it is very good, although there are a lot of steps & many changes can't be made in isolation without changing others, I was a little lost where you get the new data from when you make a change as there are so many variables. For example when an engine takes in more air than stock, where does it tell you how much more fuel it needs so you can enter the new values? Re before and after values so some of the guesswork is taken out?
The initial setup is a ballpark estimate just to keep you on the safe side. I am assuming this is the air added to to running airflow? Or are you talking about the VE? This is just adding some air for a bigger cam to get it to start. Could be more, could be less. If the car wont run we can't log data. There are a lot of assumptions made on initial setups, but everything after, once we have the car running, we use data to change. Specifically the AFR error. We use bad fuel numbers to move our air models to the correct numbers. So if it's reading really rich, the model is showing too much air, since the PCM is over spraying. If it is reading really lean, then it's too little, and it's not spraying enough. Rich numbers will be negative numbers and lean are positive. It's this way because that's what the PCM needs to "remove" or "add" to hit our target ratio. Since we don't adjust the fuel data or fuel targets (except during setup, PE (power enrichment), etc...) we adjust the air models to meet it and correct the error.
Again, on initial setup it's going to vary. You can also add in 2 g/s at a time to that same RAF (running airflow) table, but on heavily modded engines you'll find it needs much much more air. It gets tuned later on.
Like I said, most assumptions are best guess for initial setup. After that data is used for almost everything. If data cannot be used on a certain parameter, we adjust the values slowly in the direction we want it to go and keep an eye on the data to see if the changes are doing what we want. So even that is using data, technically. We don't do anything without the scanner.
It will take some time to get the lingo and grasp it. It's a complicated animal, but we can help slay that beast with you.
Thankyou for that I am no helicopter mechanic/engineer but Ill watch some more. Sounds to me like it's not really guesswork like I imagined instead it's all rather exact and precise.
Can HP Tuners work on a large tablet, I no longer use a laptop for anything?
Even though my LS1 is Maffless I would still be doing a MAF tune is that correct? ie mass air flow??
Thankyou for that I am no helicopter pilot but Ill watch some more. Sounds to me like it's not really guesswork like I imagined instead it's all rather exact and precise.
Can HP Tuners work on a large tablet, I no longer use a laptop for anything?
Even though my LS1 is Maffless I would still be doing a MAF tune is that correct? ie mass air flow??
No, with no MAF you will be in Speed Density (SD) and your airmass model will come from the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) table. MAF tune is completely not required and would be a waste of time because in order to put the car into SD mode we fail the MAF in the tune and disable the codes. My VE guide walks you through that process. It's not terribly difficult. You will need a wide band though, to get the fueling errors I was talking about, aka, read them. It's important for Power Enrichment, because all fuel trims (Stock O2's) are disabled during PE.
I'm not sure about the tablet thing. Maybe someone with the newer swoopy MPVI2 can chime in on that, since it has bluetooth, I think lol. I'm oldschool, all USB and my klunky laptop for me.
It's late where I am though brother. I'm off for the night. I hope you find the videos helpful and hopefully you can start down the road of learning this tuning thing. It's worth the trouble.
Yes that software will do anything on the supported vehicles list, but personally I recommend the Pro version up front. The Standard is for folks that are going to due “light tuning” whereas what we are talking about you are going to need to feed a few external data sources, and redoing the airmass models is the bread and butter of a “full” tune. That is because you absolutely REQUIRE a wide band to do it right. Pro version simply makes that easier.
Otherwise, getting the wide band data into the scanner will have to be done through either a serial port (many wide bands support this) or other analog means (5v wired in) through something you are not using in the PCM like EGR or the AC pressure sensor, whichever applies.
Wide bands themselves run from about $150 and up. I’ve bought a few off this site for less. I have several of them, and even a portable one I made to hook up to the accessory power receptacle, with nice neat braided wire covers and even a mount with a clip on it. Very handy for doing other people’s cars for temporary installs.
Again, in order for that to be “portable” from car to car I have the Pro version which makes switching wide band and all equipment to the next car a breeze. It’s worth the extra money up front, and if later you tune someone else’s car, or a different car of your own, you’ll find the Pro much easier to “move” to another car with your wide band. For you car being in SD, a permanent install isn’t a bad idea, so you can keep an eye on you AFR’s year round.
My VE tuning video is referencing a 2002 camaro LS1 tune file, so it should be nearly exactly the procedure you need to follow, baring any differences in PCM or Operating System. Some earlier model years have slightly different layouts and tunes. I know for sure with the 97/98, as this was that 512kb PCM, which for me is now a paperweight. I ditched that for the newer P01 (0411) in my own camaro.
Keep in mind I use the analog inputs, and it’s still possible to accomplish all of that using a serial input, but that will add a laptop to your requirements list. The upfront cost looks daunting, but after a few tunes it’s more than pays for itself. I charge $150 a pop for light mods like disabling AFM and things like that, and around $300 for a street tune, friend rate... lol.
I hope that helps with your decisions. I’m very happy I bought the pro upfront, as I figured I’d really get into this stuff and I wasn’t wrong. Other things that can be fed into a pro link (or the old green plug in my case) are things like fuel pressure and transmission pressure. Basically any sensor that has a 5v output can be plugged in and logged in the scanner, not just wide band. And since every sensor I’ve ever seen, to include almost all on the harness itself, use 5v for their ranges. Like IAT, ECT, MAP... etc... Your imagination is the only real limit as to what you can plug in and log sensor wise. The exception is the stock narrow band O2’s... they go to 1.2v, which is why we call them narrow bands because they are very limited in range. Normally though fuel pressure, trans, and wide band is more than enough in most cases.
Last edited by ChopperDoc; 06-25-2020 at 09:03 AM.
Serial wideband is the easiest and doesnt require the pro version. I have the pro and cant tell you the last time I even plugged in the pro adapter. I use serial for everything.
Might be a fun experiment lol. I know mine runs fine in the complete opposite fashion as in SD. I know for a fact the MAF can go away, but VE, not so much. The threshold for setting the error is quite high in stock form, and if you scaled it will only bring it closer to the stock error delta... I'm not 100%, just going off of what Greg and many others have stated, as well as the descriptions in the software itself.
It should be interesting though. I'm also curious as to see what happens with that. Also log all your torque PID's and such, and the usual stuff too. I wonder if MAF can support all the models alone. You have to do it now. Its for science.
Just did a quick test....zero'd out the entire VE table and the car fired up and it ran and the AFR was unchanged. I haven't taken it for a ride, its hot as crap out lol. But at least I was able to confirm what I thought. No VE no care when you set that RPM threshold for airflow calc to something low enough that it disables VE.
Just did a quick test....zero'd out the entire VE table and the car fired up and it ran and the AFR was unchanged. I haven't taken it for a ride, its hot as crap out lol. But at least I was able to confirm what I thought. No VE no care when you set that RPM threshold for airflow calc to something low enough that it disables VE.
Very interesting indeed. Are you also using an upgraded OS by chance? From the description it says it uses it in transitions, so that’s definitely interesting, no doubt. And for the sake of time, I do have to admit also not tuning the VE on a few 4th gens lol. They are MAF only and the owners are aware. They didn’t want to surrender the cars for a day+ for me to go through the whole thing and tune them lol.
Very interesting indeed. Are you also using an upgraded OS by chance? From the description it says it uses it in transitions, so that’s definitely interesting, no doubt. And for the sake of time, I do have to admit also not tuning the VE on a few 4th gens lol. They are MAF only and the owners are aware. They didn’t want to surrender the cars for a day+ for me to go through the whole thing and tune them lol.
Here is my current timing sitting at 33 at 49 mph off my OBD Bluetooth app with bucking and hesitation, so if I tell my tuner to reduce it, we would be going back to 32 or 31 timing advance?
Thanks, I purchased a new laptop and was thinking of saving a few dollars and buying this free tuning software and cable for $400aud just so I can adjust my timing and idle, I noticed they have sold a 117 of them but the tunerpro RT software with it is free off the net and I don't think the OBD2 cable with it is worth the $400 AUD. Problem is I don't know where to purchase one of these cables elsewhere or even what it is called? I tried USA eBay to get one shipped here but I don't know which is the correct one to get???
Thanks, I purchased a new laptop and was thinking of saving a few dollars and buying this free tuning software and cable for $400aud just so I can adjust my timing and idle, I noticed they have sold a 117 of them but the tunerpro RT software with it is free off the net and I don't think the OBD2 cable with it is worth the $400 AUD. Problem is I don't know where to purchase one of these cables elsewhere or even what it is called? I tried USA eBay to get one shipped here but I don't know which is the correct one to get???
It is very limited what that can do compared to HP Tuners and IMHO therefore priced about 4x higher than its value. And probably very little support available.
Also as ddnspider said, try cutting the advance down to 25 degrees and make sure the advance curve is very smooth and gradual in that area.
Im about 99.9% sure I could zero out my VE table and my MAF only setup will run the same. I'm north of 600whp and have never touched the VE table, it's bone stock. Maybe I'll zero it out this weekend to confirm.
You could hit the same numbers on a dyno, and probably the same on any timed 1/4 mile race, but you will never get a maf of the currently available kind to equal the throttle transition abilities of a proper SD tune. The tiny lag in response is still noticeable with current MAF technology. I am sure future tech will render this argument mute, but for now, we argue,
gametch: I'm sure you know all this, but for other reading this:
I don't think it is ddnspider's intention to keep his VE table zero'ed out, it was to prove that in theory you could tune to rely entirely on the MAF signal at all RPMs.
This is good info to have when trying to debug unusual problems. Such debugging often involves "extreme" tune changes to one-by-one eliminate potential possible problem areas; once "fixed" a more normal tune is restored.
Concerning transitions, I suspect the ECM is still using the MAP signal even when the VE table is zero'ed out. Or perhaps ddnspider would like to discount this MAP sensor too.
gametch: I'm sure you know all this, but for other reading this:
I don't think it is ddnspider's intention to keep his VE table zero'ed out, it was to prove that in theory you could tune to rely entirely on the MAF signal at all RPMs.
This is good info to have when trying to debug unusual problems. Such debugging often involves "extreme" tune changes to one-by-one eliminate potential possible problem areas; once "fixed" a more normal tune is restored.
Concerning transitions, I suspect the ECM is still using the MAP signal even when the VE table is zero'ed out. Or perhaps ddnspider would like to discount this MAP sensor too.
I would never keep the VE zerod out in case the MAF failed I'd like to be able to drive home 😆. It was to simply prove that when in MAF only mode the VE is completely ignored. It does make me wonder though if I could unplug the map sensor though 🤔 there's probably some hooks still in the ECM to reference map for something.
When purchasing HP tuners mvpi2 would I need to buy two credits for my vehicle despite it already being tuned recently by my tuner with HP tuners (I imagine he would have purchased credits already) I would rather buy two new credits so I can work independently of him ! Is this possible as he has already purchased credits? Will it cause compatibility issues? ie will it be locked to him? I want to adjust his tune with my HP tuners.
06-24-2020, 08:33 PM
