So, I've posted in the past about not being able to get the BRAF issues resolved. I went back and tuned the MAF, and also the VE table. I have both of those tables +/- 5%, with very few cells hitting 5. The problem I'm having is that when I run the idle config like I did this morning, I keep getting TRASH data from HP Tuners.. By TRASH I mean yesterday I drove the car and kept changing the airflow #'s for the 198 cell until I got it to a point where it did not want to do the CRUISE CONTROL thing, nor does it drop RPM, or stumble as you come to a complete stop and the PCM transitions over to the idle routine. I had to keep changing this number SLOWLY, GUESSING as I went until I got it perfect. Final number for the 198 cell was 8.4... Keep in mind I did the IDLE CONFIG yesterday morning and it was giving me TRASH numbers to the tune of 19's in the 198 field.. So, after making 25+ adjustments yesterday to get that 198 field PERFECT I thought I would run the IDLE CONFIG again this morning to see what kind of #'s HP Tuners would spit out... Can you guess? Of course you can... 19's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO, for ***** and giggles I put those EXACT #'s into the BRAF field, burned it, and went and test drove it... Car will IDLE down the road at 40MPH with your foot completely off the gas...

Can anyone explain why I keep getting TRASH #'s from HP TUners? Is there something wrong with the way I've set up the config? Since I'm logging so much information about the idle routine, can I just review the #'s I'm getting from the log and do the math, and figure out the REAL #'s and manually put them in? Please help. This is the FINAL step and then I won't have to mess with "tuning" this car any more. I've probably got over 100 hours just in TUNING... Not kidding. And STILL cannot get the BRAF #'s correct. I'll post the tune, and the logs from this morning below.

 

First link should be the tune. The 2nd link is the IDLE CONFIG I did this morning, from a cold start, and the TRASH #'s that HP Tuners is spitting out. The 3rd link should be a log file where I attempt to drive the car with the TRASH #'s from HP TUners.

If you watch the timing, you will see it climbing higher and higher as the engine RPM increases even with my foot off the gas. I should have logged TPS so you can see that the gas pedal is not being depressed. This might just be a timing issue. I had to adjust (limit) the idle spark tables for both IN PARK and IN GEAR yesterday to resolve the Self-acceleration/cruise control crap.

I went back to the 8.4 number in the 198 cell after doing these tests this morning and of course the car idles, starts by just bumping the key, and has no rpm bobbles or drops when coming to a stop... Yet Hp TUners *THINKS* I need 19's in the 198 cell.. Please any advise you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

 

can you post a screen shot of your timing and ve tables. I dont have my computer with me to up the tune file.


some things to consider.
1) if you have a decent size cam, the idle learning sensitivity needs to be turned way down. You really dont need to rely on much learning if its set right.
2) I know you said your ve is right, but if you have and jumps in numbers it can cause issue like this
3) timing WILL cause it to act like a cruise control and will make it hard to get your braf correct. I suggest putting the timing in the main table and the in drive table to the same value up to about 1200 rpm, put it at like 15 for now. this will eliminate that issue.

 

I would not lock the timing btw. that will sometimes cause a surge.

 

KFX guy.. Thank you for the input! I only locked the timing during the IDLE CONFIG test. My thoughts were that if the IN PARK and IN DRIVE idle spark table should be at 18 degrees when idling, then I should do the IDLE CONFIG with it locked at 18 degrees to eliminate any variables. If I do not lock the timing at 18 it literally fluctuates from as low as 12, all the way up to 23, which I'm, sure skews/screws the RAF #'s being logged. My thoughts were to take timing OUT OF THE EQUATION and get real values at exactly 18 degrees where the car should be idling. I have not, as yet, copied over my IN PARK and IN GEAR spark idle tables over to the main spark tables... I have a feeling that if I make the main spark tables similar to the idle spark tables, this problem may be greatly diminished. I still don't understand though why the BRAF #'s in the IDLE CONFIG are SOOOOOOO FFFFFAAARRRRRRR Off from what the car really needs. There has to be a BIG problem with how I have it set up...

If you can tell me how to screen shot my timing tables, I will gladly do it. I'm not smart enough to figure that out...

 

I never lock timing when doing a braf.
You need to set the amount of hits in your logger, higher
When logging, I enter in the lowest braf number I see before it moves to the next temp cell. Sometimes I still have to tweak it some after

 

Kfx-I sometimes run two different graphs when doing the IDLE CONFIG. One graph will have low cell count-like 5, or 1, and then the second one will have 100 or so. If you look at the log above you will see I have it set that way. I guess I should try something in the middle with like 25 cell hits as the 100 count one takes a while to update.

 

i use 25....

 

Even if I set a graph up for 25, the numbers are still going to be orbiting Mars, and nothing usable here on Earth. I'll do another log here in just a minute. Car has been sitting all day with no driving done since about 8:30 this morning. My guess is, it will still be giving me SUPER BOGUS numbers. I will do a 25 cell count graph this time.

 

Well look, i cut my posts short this morning. It was hectic for me. Long story short, was driving my gto to work this moring, got ran off the road (long story, not my fault or negligence on my part) by an 18 wheeler, hit a hole, bent my rim and busted the tire. Well it went flat. limped to a gas station. put air, held, drove home and got my truck. Get to work, my kid calls me, hes 45 minutes away, he got a flat too. Luckily I got that sorted without having to leave...so all that on my mind and then me trying to help you with that going on...didnt fair well.


Tell me a little bit about your combo so I can get an idea of what you need to do.....

 

You drive a GTO? COOL! This car that I'm trying to tune is a GTO! 1969! Sorry to hear about your flat tire fiasco. Sounds like it has not been a good start this AM for tires.

What I actually need... Is for Hp Tuners to produce some accurate data. That's all. I know it will turn out to be something I'm doing wrong, or my channels, or graph, is set up wrong. At this point, if HP Tuners would put out some accurate BRAF data, I'd be done.. But NOOOO!!!! That NEVER happens. I ran another log this am from a cold start-it is still giving me BS #'s ! Numbers that when I burned them in yesterday it had the car idling down the road with my foot off the gas pedal at over 40 MPH...

Here is what I'm doing;
1. I have burned a tune with LTFT DISABLED-under FUEL/OXYGEN SENSORS/LONG TERM FUEL TRIM-drop down tab set to "DISABLED"
2. ECT vt IAT under CLOSED LOOP ENABLE -changed all temps to 284
3. LONG TERM FUEL TRIMS MIN ECT set to 235
4. LONG TERM FUEL TRIMS MAX ECT set to 245
5. Idle/airflow-set all adaptives to ZERO.
6. Start up initial airflow-set entire table to ZERO
7. Friction airflow initial-set entire table to ZERO
8. Burned this tune to car
9. Open scanner, turn key to "run", connect to vehicle, start logging, go to CONTROLS/FUEL and click on LTFT RESET, and LTFT TURN OFF/Disable
10. Start engine and let idle until it has populated all cells on the temperature line (with BOGUS BULL **** NUMBERS)
11. Repeat the same insanity the next day expecting a different result.

If I'm missing something about setting up the tune, please let me know.. I'm sure it's something I am doing wrong. It usually turns out that way. It's just trying to figure out what I've screwed up that I'm having a hard time with. I had the complete log file this AM, but got angry and just shut it all down as it was again giving me #'s in the 19 range in the 198 temperature cell. From driving the car yesterday, I have it down to 5.9 in the 198 cell with no CRUISE CONTROL action, and no rpm instability when coming to a stop. WHY Hp Tuners thinks the car needs 19 g/s @ 198 is what I must figure out..

So, when I'm logging, one of the channels is "BASE IDLE GEAR AIRFLOW"... Where the F does HP tuners get that info? Those #'s appear to be closer to what the engine might actually need.... I can't grasp how it populates those fields.. I'm going to have to start just manually manipulating (guessing) at numbers to put into each field. Since it moves so quickly through some of the temperature cells, this could take MONTHS of guessing until i finally hit on the correct #'s... Is there ANY data that I could use from the log to manually do the math to come up with some #'s to put into my RAF tables? If I have to break out a pen and paper and calculator, I'm okay with that.. At least I could be making progress whereas right now, every log is just a waste of time, gas, and raises my blood pressure, and another cold start/engine warm up opportunity LOST..

 

Man look, I'm not sure why you are messing with all those settings, but you need to put back to stock. Then reduce the adaptives by about half. You still didnt clue me in on the engine, throttle body type (cable or drive by wire) cam size, etc. I'm trying to help you but i'm in the dark just throwing out ideas on something that I'm not sure what you are working on!

its not complicated to run a BRAF log and get good data. I think you are making things harder on yourself. I may end giving you my number and i can walk you through it. I'll await your reply on what ecm and tb type you have. I can give you some data to plug in and try this evening.

you need to see how much the stit is correcting, whether it be positive or negative. I'm using a different setting than you for measurement, I dont remember if its lb per hr or g/s, you are using the lower number, i'm using the higher number because it gives me more resolution. if you make a small change on yours, it makes a huge difference and i dont like that. Send me your email address and i'll send you some screen shots and some more info and help you get this squared away. I ended up making myself become a "pro" at idle tuning because i had so many issues and I'm extremely picky. My car now drive like stock. I just tuned a 408 in a truck last week with a huge nasty cam to drive like stock. I think it was a 254/260 duration.

 

411 ECM, DBC throttle body,
cam is a Comp Cams XR275HR XFI, https://www.lsxceleration.com/comp-c...ift-camshafts/ 222/224 566/568 112LSA 110CL
Engine is a 5.3L with flat top pistons, and 706 heads (small combustion chamber) so it's OVER 11:1 compression. Premium gas only
I've got the idle counts down to around 50 at hot idle, and the TPS voltage is .49 while idling
I've tuned the VE Table, and the MAF, have them at 5 +/-, or lower in all cells, with most being 3 or lower.
Shorty headers with O2 sensors in the factory location
2.5" exhaust through an X-pipe with Magnaflows, and true duals all the way out the back
Cold air intake

You said: "you need to see how much the stit is correcting, whether it be positive or negative".. Okay... Lets just focus on 1 temp cell-198... If I do a RAF log, Hp tuners spits out 19.xx g/s for the 198 field. If I put those numbers in the car will absolutely power brake itself to the point it wants to spin the wheels while you fight the brake to hold it back. If you let off the brake, and DO NOT GIVE IT ANY THROTTLE it will accelerate on it's own up to 40+ MPH. So... this leads me to believe that something is not getting logged, or recorded, or graphed correctly. When I manually enter 5.9 G/S into the 198 field, the car starts, idles, accelerates, and stops without any issues, or hiccups. However, with that 5.9 in the 198 temp cell, the STIT is just constantly climbing indicating it wants to add a bunch more air/fuel!!!!!!! You can be logging while driving and when you come to a stop, the STIT just begins counting UP UP and AWAY! even though you are sitting and idling just fine at 5.9 G/S..

The simplest thing I can do.. Is just figure out what RAF #'s I need manually and then either NEVER allow the PCM to make any changes to the idle routine, or, this is just a problem within HP TUners software and I can turn the idle adaptives back on and it won't actually do what HP TUNERS is showing it is doing while logging. With all adaptives turned OFF, and 5.9 G/S in the 198 field it runs perfect...

Here's what HP Tuners says RAF should be after doing a log;
90 111 133 154 176 198
23.62 21.77 21.18 20.67 19.90 19.02

This is what I actually have in there that *seems* to work;
90 111 133 154 176 198
22.30 22 21.88 20 19.20 5.90 (though the STIT will show it wants to add(+) to get it back up to 19)

I agree this process seems to be MUCH HARDER THAN IT SHOULD BE (as is EVERY thing I try with Hp Tuners). The ONLY single thing I need, is for HP Tuners to spit out some good numbers... Because the numbers it's spitting our right now for the 198 temp cell ARE NOT CORRECT AND WILL NOT WORK AND WILL MAKE THE CAR UNSAFE TO DRIVE. That's the question... Why does HP Tuners *think* the car needs 19.xx G/S in the 198 field? It's gotta be something simple like an incorrect setting in the graph in the log, or I'm not turning something off in the tune that I should be. This afternoon I'm going to download the entire RussK Idle config again, and load it into my scanner after deleting every existing graph, channel, etc; Maybe a clean start with the logger may put me on the right path.

 

I have very close to the same setup as you. 5.3, 222/233 cam, lower compression tho and cable throttle body. I’ll send you my tune and you can compare it.

 

so you go from 19.20 at 176f down to 5.90 at 198? That makes no sense. those numbers should be fairly close. at 176 the engine is warm enough to run without much correction. When i get home this evening, i'll go over what adaptives you have to mess with and everything else.

 

Yes.. The 176F cell is 19.20.. It will idle at that #, in that cell, but if you touch the gas pedal at all, like even a minor blip of the throttle, the car instantly dies as the RPM's come back down and then it will NOT restart again until the car is dead cold. This stalling also confirms that the #'s that HP TUners is giving are all BULL PUCKEY. The data from the logs CANNOT be trusted, as it is NOT accurate.

The 5.9 I have in the 198 field is what I manually put there after driving the car, making minor tweeks to the number repeatedly and-VOILA! After 20-25 attempts at guessing, I got to the magic number that allows the engine to run, without stalling, and without CRUISE CONTROL effect in action. HP Tuners is saying the 5.9 should be 19.xx.... That 19.xx will absolutely cause the car to blast down the road all by itself. The other thing I noticed is that at 19.xx in the 198F field, if you take your foot off the brake, the car takes off and starts building speed. As it builds speed and the RPM's come up, the timing ALSO starts building which is adding to the problem. Maybe I just have a timing problem. If I LOCK the timing at 18 degrees, and do not allow the timing to increase, then I could probably get away with 19.xx in the 198F cell... Otherwise, if timing is allowed to "run-away" as it has been doing, that 19.xx is going to cause a car crash.

I just got back from a road test... Now, it's logging and showing me that it wants numbers in the 8's upwards to 10's in the 198 range. Why such a large disparity between doing the idle log, and then after actually driving the car? Maybe heat is playing a BIG role in this.. Still, from 19.xx down into the 8's? Really? Come on man! BS data/BS #'s..

During my log if I watch Mass Air Flow in G/S... Can't I just use those #'s? Is that not showing me how much air is actually moving through the system? Why not just mimic what the PCM is measuring through the MAF????? This is what I mean when I say I should be able to pluck my #'s from the available channels already being logged.

 

When I get home to my laptop, i'll have some info for you. I need to look at your tune file. I think I know what is going on, I'll confirm it this evening. stay tuned. If I dont reply by 9pm central standard time, pm me. I'll get an email notification.

 

Following this
You two gentleman have been through some s@&t the last couple of days.
Both commended for patience

 

Ok. Got my computer open.

go to
idle.
the big rpm tab (you have a choice between rpm and airflow, choose rpm.
then see where it says adaptive idle.
change yours to the following:

adaptive spark delay 0.0s
update rpm err max 85rpm

proportional:
enable rpm error 100rpm
then below that you’ll see airflow high in gear ac on/off etc.... click each one. Zero them out. Then from 200rpm to 400rpm input .062. That’s the correction factor. We don’t want it to learn itself bad. Do that in every tab. Then you get to integral. 100rpm again. In those boxes below integral enable rpm error, zero those out. Then put .023 in 100-400rpm.
derivative below that. Fast rpm filter .8875. Slow rpm filter .3400
airflow rpm low I left alone.
airflow rpm high I put
.05=1.612
.06=4.154
.08=6.138
.09=11.285 all the way to the end

my idle airflow is

 

post your tune file

heres mine