Truck Norris Cam install
12-09-2023, 01:26 PM
#41
You can use the VE table, and also look at the spark tables-specifically the IDLE IN PARK and IDLE IN GEAR. Note the timing 0,400,800 columns through .28 grams inclusive is all set to 23 in all 4 timing tables which includes LOW OCTANE and HIGH OCTANE. notice how it is blended into the 1200 column... Check the idle UNDERSPEED and OVERSPEED. You can copy those tables into your tune as well. It will help with the swinging spark advance that you are currently experiencing. Notice the white spark advance line in your log-how saw-toothed it is... it will get better with less spark advance swing. And also I roughed in your Base Running Airflow table so you can copy and paste that into your tune as well.
CHOP! CHOP! Where's that next log???? HAHAHA
CHOP! CHOP! Where's that next log???? HAHAHA
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Crasteal (12-09-2023)
12-11-2023, 08:52 PM
#43
5% increase from 400-3200 on ve table, updated cranking ve primary, updated BRAF. You will have to go back and update the cranking ve primary after you are finished with the VE table. Burn this tune and then while logging go for a drive. Keep the RPM's UNDER 2500 for this next log so that we can verify that the VE Table in that RPM range is close. The idea here is that if the table is off you don't want to harm the engine. We should be close enough that closed loop operation will add fuel should it be too lean. Do as much stop and go driving as possible. Remember-SLOW movement of the throttle pedal is what you are after. Stabbing or rapid movement of the pedal will get you into transient fueling which will negatively impact your data. Increase your cell counts on the LTFT+STFT-VE Table graph to at least 25. 50 would be better but the higher you make this number, the farther you are going to have to drive to populate the cells. The HIGHER the cell count-the more accurate the data... but it comes at the price of a much longer drive. Remember you are not trying to get it perfect-just +/-3 % as the PCM will be adjusting fueling on-the-fly. What you are really after here is the closest #'s you can get on the VE table so that if an O2 sensor fails, and the computer can't, or won't, go into closed loop operation your PCM will be able to properly fuel the engine from the VE table data. Also remember that even the MAF references the VE table, as well as Idle routines. This is why it is so important to get the VE table as close as possible, as polished and smooth as possible. You will note looking at the VE table in the 3d graph that I have smoothed it just a little more. After this first driving log, we will smooth it even more and will probably have to add a little more fuel in the idle areas.
12-12-2023, 07:26 PM
#45
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Had to cut this drive short, lost power steering.
Let me know if its workable, but itll take me a couple days to get parts and fix the steering. think I blew a hose out.
Let me know if its workable, but itll take me a couple days to get parts and fix the steering. think I blew a hose out.
12-12-2023, 10:09 PM
#46
First off... You are running HOTTER than I would be comfortable with.. What temperature is your thermostat? Or, are you 100% sure the cooling system is filled and you have no air bubbles? Or, are you 100% sure the reported temperature is correct? I have a 180° thermostat and my truck runs about 163-168 going down the freeway... What degree is your thermostat, and are you 100% sure your cooling system is full? The PROPER WAY to fill an LS cooling system is to remove the UPPER radiator hose and holding that hose up higher than the engine fill that hose until the engine, and the coolant reservoir, are full... Filling it any other way can result in low coolant levels. Even at speeds +40 you are still running over 200 degrees... Stop everything else... get the temp situation resolved. No need at attempting to tune further until you have that checked/confirmed..There is something wrong with your set up! FIX THE TEMP SITUATION NOW!!!!!!! Are you running a mechanical fan, or electrics? Videos on YOUTUBE will tell you how to check/test it if you are mechanical. Or, if you have electric fans-you DEFINITELY have problems because once you are moving 35+ MPH you should have enough airflow over the radiator to bring the coolant temps down below 200...
Otherwise... You are running lean at all RPM's 1200 and above... hence the reason we wanted to roll it slow until we got it sorted. Jesus that log looks TERRIBLE.. Glad you decided to get it sorted BEFORE you started daily driving it.
Based on what I'm seeing, I'd highlight ALL columns 1200 and higher and add 10 %... simply multiply all columns 1200 and higher X 1.10 and lets see what the next log gives us... But first... check your coolant levels, and tell me what type of fan set up you are running.
Otherwise... You are running lean at all RPM's 1200 and above... hence the reason we wanted to roll it slow until we got it sorted. Jesus that log looks TERRIBLE.. Glad you decided to get it sorted BEFORE you started daily driving it.
Based on what I'm seeing, I'd highlight ALL columns 1200 and higher and add 10 %... simply multiply all columns 1200 and higher X 1.10 and lets see what the next log gives us... But first... check your coolant levels, and tell me what type of fan set up you are running.
12-13-2023, 10:33 AM
#47
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
First off... You are running HOTTER than I would be comfortable with.. What temperature is your thermostat? Or, are you 100% sure the cooling system is filled and you have no air bubbles? Or, are you 100% sure the reported temperature is correct? I have a 180° thermostat and my truck runs about 163-168 going down the freeway... What degree is your thermostat, and are you 100% sure your cooling system is full? The PROPER WAY to fill an LS cooling system is to remove the UPPER radiator hose and holding that hose up higher than the engine fill that hose until the engine, and the coolant reservoir, are full... Filling it any other way can result in low coolant levels. Even at speeds +40 you are still running over 200 degrees... Stop everything else... get the temp situation resolved. No need at attempting to tune further until you have that checked/confirmed..There is something wrong with your set up! FIX THE TEMP SITUATION NOW!!!!!!! Are you running a mechanical fan, or electrics? Videos on YOUTUBE will tell you how to check/test it if you are mechanical. Or, if you have electric fans-you DEFINITELY have problems because once you are moving 35+ MPH you should have enough airflow over the radiator to bring the coolant temps down below 200...
Otherwise... You are running lean at all RPM's 1200 and above... hence the reason we wanted to roll it slow until we got it sorted. Jesus that log looks TERRIBLE.. Glad you decided to get it sorted BEFORE you started daily driving it.
Based on what I'm seeing, I'd highlight ALL columns 1200 and higher and add 10 %... simply multiply all columns 1200 and higher X 1.10 and lets see what the next log gives us... But first... check your coolant levels, and tell me what type of fan set up you are running.
Otherwise... You are running lean at all RPM's 1200 and above... hence the reason we wanted to roll it slow until we got it sorted. Jesus that log looks TERRIBLE.. Glad you decided to get it sorted BEFORE you started daily driving it.
Based on what I'm seeing, I'd highlight ALL columns 1200 and higher and add 10 %... simply multiply all columns 1200 and higher X 1.10 and lets see what the next log gives us... But first... check your coolant levels, and tell me what type of fan set up you are running.
12-14-2023, 06:59 PM
#48
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I mustve had an air pocket, after fumbling around with the p/s hoses last night and the coolant tonight I did a new idle log, and peaked at 190 as I was buttoning up.
12-14-2023, 07:50 PM
#49
Try this VE table next and let's do another drive. Look at the 3D image of the table and see how it is changing to reflect what the engine actually needs. You can view your original VE table from the tune you initially posted as a comparison. It was mis-shaped... not normal looking. a table always needs to BUILD UP from idle going towards the higher RPM's and then begin to subtly begin declining after engine peak torque.. We will only be able to "fix" the ve table up to about 3500RPM or so... Your narrow bands just are not going to be able to give us accurate data higher than that. This is why you will eventually need a wide band to fix the cells higher than 3500.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
12-15-2023, 06:12 AM
#50
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Try this VE table next and let's do another drive. Look at the 3D image of the table and see how it is changing to reflect what the engine actually needs. You can view your original VE table from the tune you initially posted as a comparison. It was mis-shaped... not normal looking. a table always needs to BUILD UP from idle going towards the higher RPM's and then begin to subtly begin declining after engine peak torque.. We will only be able to "fix" the ve table up to about 3500RPM or so... Your narrow bands just are not going to be able to give us accurate data higher than that. This is why you will eventually need a wide band to fix the cells higher than 3500.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
12-15-2023, 07:54 AM
#51
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I have an lq9 truck Norris stage 2 cam in my 08silverado 4x4 and am dealing same Where are you located? Any chance there is someone else near you that has HP tuners and can pull a copy of your tune to post here? The P0300 could simply be because of the over lap of the cam causing low speed/idle misfiring. OR, it could mean you have other issues. A log would show us what the fuel trims are doing, and could help us pinpoint whether you have a mechanical problem, or just a tune issue. The misfire tables usually need to be adjusted for a cam like the Truck Norris. After reading your post last night I was reviewing the most recent 5.3L build I did with that cam, and I did make adjustments to the table for misfire-but left the P0300 DTC ON, or available for the PCM to set should the engine really begin randomly misfiring. Some guys like to just shut that code off..... Maybe there are merits to either way, but I personally like to leave that code active as a diagnostic aid for future problems.
Right now, since you have scanned it, reviewing a data log would really help us see what the engine is doing. Being able to review a log right now would greatly benefit us being able to guide you with some changes you can make to the tune to get it dialed in. In short... until you can get your hands back on an HP Tuners interface you are kind of dead in the water.
Your statement "tune shouldn't be too far out of grasp"... If you think that modifying or altering all of your IDLE spark IN GEAR, and IN PARK, spark under speed and over speed, LOW OCTANE and HIGH OCTANE tables, your Base Running Airflow, proportional idle tuning, IAC steps vs Effective area, dialing in your idle counts to the correct number, adjusting rich/lean vs airflow tables for O2 sensor placement, adjusting EOIT, getting your TPS voltage set within the correct parameters, resetting IAC and TPS multiple times along the way, setting the throttle body screw, remapping the ENTIRE VE table, remapping the ENTIRE MAF table, adjusting PE values, is "not too far out of grasp"..... I think you may be changing your opinion once you get into it.
That cam is going to require ALL of what I listed and potentially more... if you want it perfect. If you don't want it to stall as you come to a stop. if you want it to cold start and idle all the way up to full operating temperature without issue.... yea... all of that... You picked a cam that for a beginner is going to be an "advanced" tuning required cam.. A milder cam with less over lap, wider LSA, would be far easier to tune than what you have. That cam is going to chop pretty good at idle and that chop comes at a cost... low volumetric efficiency and the potential for the motor to labor, stall, & not want to run well at idle, and on deceleration to idle.
I'll post up a copy of the tune and you can do a comparison between this post, and yours to see everything that has been changed.
Right now, since you have scanned it, reviewing a data log would really help us see what the engine is doing. Being able to review a log right now would greatly benefit us being able to guide you with some changes you can make to the tune to get it dialed in. In short... until you can get your hands back on an HP Tuners interface you are kind of dead in the water.
Your statement "tune shouldn't be too far out of grasp"... If you think that modifying or altering all of your IDLE spark IN GEAR, and IN PARK, spark under speed and over speed, LOW OCTANE and HIGH OCTANE tables, your Base Running Airflow, proportional idle tuning, IAC steps vs Effective area, dialing in your idle counts to the correct number, adjusting rich/lean vs airflow tables for O2 sensor placement, adjusting EOIT, getting your TPS voltage set within the correct parameters, resetting IAC and TPS multiple times along the way, setting the throttle body screw, remapping the ENTIRE VE table, remapping the ENTIRE MAF table, adjusting PE values, is "not too far out of grasp"..... I think you may be changing your opinion once you get into it.
That cam is going to require ALL of what I listed and potentially more... if you want it perfect. If you don't want it to stall as you come to a stop. if you want it to cold start and idle all the way up to full operating temperature without issue.... yea... all of that... You picked a cam that for a beginner is going to be an "advanced" tuning required cam.. A milder cam with less over lap, wider LSA, would be far easier to tune than what you have. That cam is going to chop pretty good at idle and that chop comes at a cost... low volumetric efficiency and the potential for the motor to labor, stall, & not want to run well at idle, and on deceleration to idle.
I'll post up a copy of the tune and you can do a comparison between this post, and yours to see everything that has been changed.
12-16-2023, 01:15 PM
#52
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Try this VE table next and let's do another drive. Look at the 3D image of the table and see how it is changing to reflect what the engine actually needs. You can view your original VE table from the tune you initially posted as a comparison. It was mis-shaped... not normal looking. a table always needs to BUILD UP from idle going towards the higher RPM's and then begin to subtly begin declining after engine peak torque.. We will only be able to "fix" the ve table up to about 3500RPM or so... Your narrow bands just are not going to be able to give us accurate data higher than that. This is why you will eventually need a wide band to fix the cells higher than 3500.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
We could have just started with a VE table that is CLOSER to what you will actually need, but then you would not get to do all this fun logging, and see the changes happening. I have VE tables that we could "paste and run" specifically for your cam... but where's the fun in that? If you want to speed the process up, we can do that...but doing it the way we are right now is going to help you should you decide to tune other vehicles in the future.
Not sure where else to go on that aside from changing out to a 180 tstat,,,, oe temp is 187
12-16-2023, 02:28 PM
#53
Depending on what this next log looks like, we may have to get a fuel pressure tester on the fuel rail to see what the pressure is at on hot idle, and while driving down the road, after a decent drive (20 miles+/-).
Also, did you increase the cell count in the graph for this last log? It needs to be 25 MINIMUM.. and higher is better... and time to put some miles on it so we can get some more good data.
Look at the graph in the 3D view... compare that to the ve table you started with... then compare it to a stock ve table.. That truck norris cam is building power very quickly right off idle and carrying it through the midrange... should make for a nice DD vehicle when you are done.
On the temperature situation... get the vehicle up on the freeway and drive at 60MPH or so, for at least 5 miles and watch the temp... If it does not come down to 180-195 range you have a problem. Those speeds should be enough airflow across the radiator to negate anything the fan is doing.. So the temps MUST drop at freeway speeds.. If they don't, start with a lower temp thermastat.. I've got a 180 in mine and see temps in the 163-168 range consistently at freeway cruising speeds. Then at a red light it will creep up to 195 and the electric fan comes on and it will hold right at 190 or so after a few minutes of the electric fan coming on.. Once moving again the temp comes right back down and the fan shuts off.
Also, did you increase the cell count in the graph for this last log? It needs to be 25 MINIMUM.. and higher is better... and time to put some miles on it so we can get some more good data.
Look at the graph in the 3D view... compare that to the ve table you started with... then compare it to a stock ve table.. That truck norris cam is building power very quickly right off idle and carrying it through the midrange... should make for a nice DD vehicle when you are done.
On the temperature situation... get the vehicle up on the freeway and drive at 60MPH or so, for at least 5 miles and watch the temp... If it does not come down to 180-195 range you have a problem. Those speeds should be enough airflow across the radiator to negate anything the fan is doing.. So the temps MUST drop at freeway speeds.. If they don't, start with a lower temp thermastat.. I've got a 180 in mine and see temps in the 163-168 range consistently at freeway cruising speeds. Then at a red light it will creep up to 195 and the electric fan comes on and it will hold right at 190 or so after a few minutes of the electric fan coming on.. Once moving again the temp comes right back down and the fan shuts off.
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Crasteal (12-16-2023)
12-16-2023, 05:13 PM
#54
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I didn't realize the counts wouldn't save. I set it to 50 again, will write it and go for a ride.
Will watch the temp on this drive.
Back in 20-30 min
Will watch the temp on this drive.
Back in 20-30 min
12-16-2023, 05:25 PM
#55
If you can remember, start out in manual 1st gear and SLOWLY accelerate all the way up to 3000 rpm trying to gradually increase speed without any abrupt rpm jumps... Then let off the gas, manually shift to 2nd and do the same thing... The longer you can keep the cursor in a single cell while increasing speed, the better the data will be. No quick acceleration if possible as it will sweep across the cells too quickly and will negatively impact the data if/when it does that.
12-16-2023, 06:00 PM
#56
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Too late, see if this log helps, but I think there is a def issue with cooling. Whether it be the tstat or water pump, never dropped below 200 even at 70 mph. Tstat is pretty quick but at this point will have to wait until tomorrow.
12-18-2023, 05:56 PM
#57
Not to be the bearer of bad news... but... Notice we have a bunch of 1's and 0's, and even several 2's and 3's through the cruise and tip in areas.. Those are just fine... but the lean condition at 75KPA and higher... usually means you are either running out of injector, or low fuel pressure or volume... Time to add to the channels injector pulse width, commanded AFR, and actual AFR, so we can figure out if it's a fuel supply issue, or are you running out of injector. One quick way to drill down on this issue.. get the vehicle good and hot, then attach a fuel pressure gauge to your rail, then tape the gauge to the windshield so that you can see it while driving down the road... Check your idle pressure and write it down. Check the pressure while cruising and write it down. This next part can be dicey... You will need to put a load on the engine... by that I mean you will need to hammer down on it.. The scary part? If your "system" (tune, fuel pump, injectors) is not up to par the engine is going to go real lean, real quick, and you will need to get off the gas before you harm the engine... Then after your drive and log, when you shut the vehicle off, time how long the system holds pressure after you turn the key off.. If it drops pressure quickly, there will be even MORE work to do to try and figure out if you have a drain back issue through the pump, or a leaking/stuck on/open injector(s).. Either way, your VE table is telling us that no matter how much we alter the #'s in the 75KPA and higher cells, it's just going to keep asking for even higher numbers.. and it will all be bad data because of a "potential" mechanical issue. Need to pump the brakes on tuning above 2500RPM for the time being until you can figure out where the bottle neck in fueling is. Is it injectors? I think you mention having 33 lb./hr injectors which should be enough... Is it a weak fuel pump? Are you using the vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail? If so, it's common for the diaphragm inside that factory FPR to go bad and create issues. It's only a couple screws to open it up and inspect it (be careful opening it though as there will be residual fuel pressure and some is likely to squirt out as you remove the diaphragm). You can always put a rag over the schrader valve on the rail and bleed off any residual pressure before servicing the FPR. It started with a mild cam and morphed into a frame off restoration. I'll post an updated VE table here in just a minute but don't put too much faith in it as I think we have other issues and we will get to work on the VE table many more times in the future-after we resolve the as yet unknown issue.
12-18-2023, 07:26 PM
#58
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Damn I just need to drive it. Im putting too many miles on my brothers truck 
That being said, I did notice on the highway drive the other night that it seemed to not have any throttle response unless I "got into the throttle" a little.
I just went out and connected a fuel pressure gauge, 0 psi after sitting for about an hour and half.. Energize pump, right up to 50 psi, held 50 psi right through Idle, didnt do much else with it,, will have to figure out how to get the gauge or another gauge where I can see it.
time stamp 8:26 50 psi holding
edit time stamp 8:34 dropped 2psi to 48
That being said, I did notice on the highway drive the other night that it seemed to not have any throttle response unless I "got into the throttle" a little.
I just went out and connected a fuel pressure gauge, 0 psi after sitting for about an hour and half.. Energize pump, right up to 50 psi, held 50 psi right through Idle, didnt do much else with it,, will have to figure out how to get the gauge or another gauge where I can see it.
time stamp 8:26 50 psi holding
edit time stamp 8:34 dropped 2psi to 48
Last edited by Crasteal; 12-18-2023 at 07:35 PM.
12-18-2023, 09:22 PM
#59
Not bad as far as the pressure loss in the 8 minute window... but... we really need to see what the pump can produce when it is HOT, and under a real load... if it is dropping pressure under higher load, while hot, it's got to GO! Even at 50 psi, you are down 8 psi over what your injector data is based off of in the tune... LS systems are "supposed" to be 58 psi at all times.. even though most I have ever bothered to check are well under that... The PCM can compensate for the lower pressure when in closed loop by simply commanding more fuel (injector on-time).. but there comes a point where no matter how much more fuel the PCM commands if the pump can't meet the request.... it's a poop show. and no tune in the world can compensate for the real problem.
If you just need to "drive it", then by all means you can do that right now... Your VE table in the cruise, and tip-in, portions right now is doable... But you will need to resist the urge to hammer down on it... If the tune/injectors/fuel pump can't produce the volume of fuel your engine needs under full throttle, or passing gear scenarios, it's going to hurt the catalytic converters over time, or if run too lean for too long, it can potentially damage the ring lands on the pistons.... For now, you can drive it! Just drive it like your grandfather would... slow and easy is the key to success..
If you just need to "drive it", then by all means you can do that right now... Your VE table in the cruise, and tip-in, portions right now is doable... But you will need to resist the urge to hammer down on it... If the tune/injectors/fuel pump can't produce the volume of fuel your engine needs under full throttle, or passing gear scenarios, it's going to hurt the catalytic converters over time, or if run too lean for too long, it can potentially damage the ring lands on the pistons.... For now, you can drive it! Just drive it like your grandfather would... slow and easy is the key to success..