View Poll Results: Which of these describes how you tuned idle air, and your surging (or lack thereof)?
Set screw, no surging.
9
3.54%
Set screw, have surging.
12
4.72%
Drill mod, no surging.
9
3.54%
Drill mod, have surging.
14
5.51%
PCM tuning, no surging.
109
42.91%
PCM tuning, have surging.
101
39.76%
Voters: 254. You may not vote on this poll
Surging Poll after Cam; please vote if you don't have surging problems too!
10-03-2005, 04:24 PM
#61
I tried adding some timing in the low-rpm range like Rick said with little success. I'm afraid to add too much. I'm already over 40 degrees in some cells. I'm running open-loop SD and we have the ve table very close to perfect with lots of wideband tuning. I don't know what else to change for a bucking problem though...
10-03-2005, 04:32 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by SSblack98
Yeah, it is very annoying. 
My car idles perfectly smooth but going down the road if the tach drops below 2k rpms it will usually start bucking, sometimes to the point I have to down shift or push in the clutch. And I don't mean at real low rpms just like 16-1900. Drives and runs great other then that. Seems to be worse when ambient air temp is colder...
My car idles perfectly smooth but going down the road if the tach drops below 2k rpms it will usually start bucking, sometimes to the point I have to down shift or push in the clutch. And I don't mean at real low rpms just like 16-1900. Drives and runs great other then that. Seems to be worse when ambient air temp is colder...
10-03-2005, 04:57 PM
#63
IAC Effective Area is probably the most critical table to nail for low rpm surging. That and running without a MAF made the biggest difference on my car. BTW, I used the drill mod to get my IAC counts lower.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
10-10-2005, 11:56 AM
#66
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Originally Posted by P Mack
I know there is no fixed number. What I meant was, do you usually add more at 800 rpm than at 1200, or vice versa? Can you actually give an example of one cam that the timing ramped up and another that ramped down? Do you ever reduce timing in the 400-1600 rpm area for smoothness?
Rick
10-10-2005, 11:58 AM
#67
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Originally Posted by SSblack98
I tried adding some timing in the low-rpm range like Rick said with little success. I'm afraid to add too much. I'm already over 40 degrees in some cells. I'm running open-loop SD and we have the ve table very close to perfect with lots of wideband tuning. I don't know what else to change for a bucking problem though...
Rick
10-10-2005, 09:47 PM
#68
Originally Posted by Rick@Synergy
I use a steady state dyno where I can design a timing table like GM does for that cam of choice. And when the car is done, the end result is a table no one thought it would look like. Very aggressive and no KR. So I dont mind sharing, but most people might be tempted to just throw the table in for every car and not monitor the car for KR. Thats where the info gets dangerous.
But I will share that timing is your friend. A stock table should never be used for anything but a stock cam. That table GM did for you. Anything else you do, get ready to redo the whole table. Without doing this, you might as well stick with a stock cam for responce.
Rick
But I will share that timing is your friend. A stock table should never be used for anything but a stock cam. That table GM did for you. Anything else you do, get ready to redo the whole table. Without doing this, you might as well stick with a stock cam for responce.
Rick
Problem is, you are ~2000 miles from me!
Have you ever networked with a midwest tuner that uses the same techniques?
I live near St. Louis, MO.
10-11-2005, 10:59 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by fnbrowning
Rick, it sound like you know your stuff!
Problem is, you are ~2000 miles from me!
Have you ever networked with a midwest tuner that uses the same techniques?
I live near St. Louis, MO.
Problem is, you are ~2000 miles from me!
Have you ever networked with a midwest tuner that uses the same techniques?
I live near St. Louis, MO.
thats the thing. Unless others actually use their dyno for what it does, you wont get that far. I found that even people around here that by nice dynos, still wont use them for why they were built. email me and lets see who you are talking about. rick@synergymotorsports.net
rick
12-10-2005, 02:45 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by RedHardSupra
idle screw, reset tps sensor, perfect VE, perfect RAF, no surging on strokers with 240+ duration cams
12-19-2005, 11:52 AM
#71
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Surging is a symptom of running the engine too rich. If you get your VEs sorted you should not encounter surging issues... unless you are deliberately running your low rpm in open loop where the transition from closed loop to open loop on coastdown will cause uncomfortable bucking.
I've got a hole in the TB, which the inept tuner drilled (before he made a mess of my tune) but I found this is not necessary and neither is altering the IACs from stock for a 224/224 110 lsa 0.537" cam LS1.
I've also leaned off the 'commanded fuel in open loop mode' PID {b3605} to eliminate the common symptom of bogging (drop in rpm) after 'driving off after cold start'.
yeah, I sure fixed up my tuner's mistakes... after finally purchasing Flashscan and trying PCM Tuning myself. Absolutely happy with my idle and general driveability.
Btw, here is a snapshot of my calibration...
Cam:
224/224 110 lsa .537"
Induction:
MAFless/GTS MAF pipe
Idle Speed:
900rpm
IAC counts:
20
Idle Airflow *C (ECT):
ECT (C) -40 -28 -16 -4 8 20 32 44 56 68 80 92 104 116 128 140
Airflow (g/s)20 18.5 17 15.5 12.099609 10.200195 10.099609 9.900391 8.599609 6.799805 6.299805 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195
Idle Airflow Parked *C (IAT):
IAT (C) -40 -20 0 20 40 60 80 100 120 140
Airflow (g/s)33 28 23 21 19 14 10 8 8 8
VE (0-1200rpm):
MAP (kPa) 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100 105
400 (RPM) 37.000430 38.270523 39.540615 40.810708 42.080800 43.350893 44.620985 45.891078 47.161170 48.431263 49.701355 50.971448 52.241540 53.511633 54.781725 56.051818 57.321910 58.592003 59.862095
800 (RPM) 40.634972 41.785244 42.935517 44.085789 45.244050 46.394322 47.544595 48.694867 49.845139 50.995412 52.145684 53.295957 54.454217 55.604490 56.754762 57.905035 59.055307 60.205579 61.355852
1200 (RPM) 43.598521 44.716841 45.835162 46.961470 48.079791 49.198111 50.316432 51.434752 52.561060 53.679381 54.797701 55.916022 57.034342 58.152663 59.278971 60.397292 61.515612 62.633932 63.752253
I've got a hole in the TB, which the inept tuner drilled (before he made a mess of my tune) but I found this is not necessary and neither is altering the IACs from stock for a 224/224 110 lsa 0.537" cam LS1.
I've also leaned off the 'commanded fuel in open loop mode' PID {b3605} to eliminate the common symptom of bogging (drop in rpm) after 'driving off after cold start'.
yeah, I sure fixed up my tuner's mistakes... after finally purchasing Flashscan and trying PCM Tuning myself. Absolutely happy with my idle and general driveability.
Btw, here is a snapshot of my calibration...
Cam:
224/224 110 lsa .537"
Induction:
MAFless/GTS MAF pipe
Idle Speed:
900rpm
IAC counts:
20
Idle Airflow *C (ECT):
ECT (C) -40 -28 -16 -4 8 20 32 44 56 68 80 92 104 116 128 140
Airflow (g/s)20 18.5 17 15.5 12.099609 10.200195 10.099609 9.900391 8.599609 6.799805 6.299805 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195 5.700195
Idle Airflow Parked *C (IAT):
IAT (C) -40 -20 0 20 40 60 80 100 120 140
Airflow (g/s)33 28 23 21 19 14 10 8 8 8
VE (0-1200rpm):
MAP (kPa) 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100 105
400 (RPM) 37.000430 38.270523 39.540615 40.810708 42.080800 43.350893 44.620985 45.891078 47.161170 48.431263 49.701355 50.971448 52.241540 53.511633 54.781725 56.051818 57.321910 58.592003 59.862095
800 (RPM) 40.634972 41.785244 42.935517 44.085789 45.244050 46.394322 47.544595 48.694867 49.845139 50.995412 52.145684 53.295957 54.454217 55.604490 56.754762 57.905035 59.055307 60.205579 61.355852
1200 (RPM) 43.598521 44.716841 45.835162 46.961470 48.079791 49.198111 50.316432 51.434752 52.561060 53.679381 54.797701 55.916022 57.034342 58.152663 59.278971 60.397292 61.515612 62.633932 63.752253
Last edited by SSbaby; 12-19-2005 at 12:04 PM.
08-05-2006, 07:46 AM
#75
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Idle screw, reset tps sensor, VE, Base RAF, Frictional Airflow Initial, timing, no surging with 224/228 0.581/0.588 112+1 camshaft. No drilling the TB blade.
I have cam bucking at 36-40 mph and some idle hunting on cold startup.
I have cam bucking at 36-40 mph and some idle hunting on cold startup.
08-12-2006, 07:55 AM
#76
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Hey all sorry to resurect an old post. I am totally lost on what else to do. I too am experiencing surging at idle while AC is on and also pretty bad bucking on deceleration in lower gears at anywhere from 500-2000 RPMs, Also get PO300 code, Car has minor mods, I tried everything short of dyno tune or idle set screw/drill mod. It only has the Hotcam, 3.73's, cold air intake, and other minor mods (in Sig). I recently changed front O2's, Hi-Flow cats, Predator Tune, I tried to dyno it about 6 months ago and they stopped at 5K RPMs because my A/F was like 15:1 said it was way to lean. The predator is pretty limited but can still adjust Timing and Fuel (but I think it only applies to WOT).
Can anyone suggest maybe something I can do with the Predator alone and set screw to get rid/minimize surging and stop this PO300. I have read somewhere that some people with the Hotcam experience this DTC due to idle roughness.
Any suggestions?
Can anyone suggest maybe something I can do with the Predator alone and set screw to get rid/minimize surging and stop this PO300. I have read somewhere that some people with the Hotcam experience this DTC due to idle roughness.
Any suggestions?
12-01-2006, 07:19 PM
#77
Originally Posted by DarkAzNite
Hey all sorry to resurect an old post. I am totally lost on what else to do. I too am experiencing surging at idle while AC is on and also pretty bad bucking on deceleration in lower gears at anywhere from 500-2000 RPMs, Also get PO300 code, Car has minor mods, I tried everything short of dyno tune or idle set screw/drill mod. It only has the Hotcam, 3.73's, cold air intake, and other minor mods (in Sig). I recently changed front O2's, Hi-Flow cats, Predator Tune, I tried to dyno it about 6 months ago and they stopped at 5K RPMs because my A/F was like 15:1 said it was way to lean. The predator is pretty limited but can still adjust Timing and Fuel (but I think it only applies to WOT).
Can anyone suggest maybe something I can do with the Predator alone and set screw to get rid/minimize surging and stop this PO300. I have read somewhere that some people with the Hotcam experience this DTC due to idle roughness.
Any suggestions?
Can anyone suggest maybe something I can do with the Predator alone and set screw to get rid/minimize surging and stop this PO300. I have read somewhere that some people with the Hotcam experience this DTC due to idle roughness.
Any suggestions?
Bill
12-11-2006, 08:59 AM
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I voted set screw and surging, I just got the cam in this weekend but Ima try and tune it out myself.
Does anyone have or have seen graphs of what is going on at surge?
I'm working with mine to try and track down exactly what is going on so maybe i can kick this turd.
If anyone has some HPT logs from a bone stock car, with stock tune logging the common idle PID's that would be useful.
More specifically decel from @ 30 mph to 0.
I'm seeing it happen @ 10 mph every time.
Although I do have some cruise control going on at 0 throttle too, so my RAF is prob still out of whack.
Does anyone have or have seen graphs of what is going on at surge?
I'm working with mine to try and track down exactly what is going on so maybe i can kick this turd.
If anyone has some HPT logs from a bone stock car, with stock tune logging the common idle PID's that would be useful.
More specifically decel from @ 30 mph to 0.
I'm seeing it happen @ 10 mph every time.
Although I do have some cruise control going on at 0 throttle too, so my RAF is prob still out of whack.