Let's see your VE graph after tuning..
02-20-2005, 09:46 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by Magnus
Sort of..
I don't make changes 100%.. I usually make changes in the 50% range and then scan again to see how much more I have to go. A 100% change may put me on the other side of the line.. hence, multiply by half %
I don't make changes 100%.. I usually make changes in the 50% range and then scan again to see how much more I have to go. A 100% change may put me on the other side of the line.. hence, multiply by half %
02-20-2005, 09:48 PM
#82
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Ya.. the 100% kept causing me to overshoot.. so I would overshoot and overshoot again and then overshoot again.. It was a mess.. I like just adding or subracting until I get to my desired result.. Mixing the two for the same cells causes too much confusion. lol
02-20-2005, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnus
Ya.. the 100% kept causing me to overshoot.. so I would overshoot and overshoot again and then overshoot again.. It was a mess.. I like just adding or subracting until I get to my desired result.. Mixing the two for the same cells causes too much confusion. lol
02-21-2005, 10:46 PM
#85
Holy ****, after looking at some of your guys VE tables running in SD mode, I wonder how you havent hurt anything yet. Luckily an NA motor is much forgiving. The only "real" ve table Ive so far is Magnus. On an NA motor, highest VE values will be recorded at high load (90kPa-105 kPa) and withing a few hundred rpm of peak torque... as well as recorded pulsewidth values. You can change every cell in your VE table, but that doesnt mean that it is correct
If these were on some forced induction cars, I could see lots of new pistons being bought. No offense meant by this post guys, but after seeing some posts on here some guys are too busy trying to chase a theoretical perfect matching this or that, and not speeding enough time actual tuning and getting results out of their "tune"
If these were on some forced induction cars, I could see lots of new pistons being bought. No offense meant by this post guys, but after seeing some posts on here some guys are too busy trying to chase a theoretical perfect matching this or that, and not speeding enough time actual tuning and getting results out of their "tune"
02-21-2005, 11:43 PM
#86
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LOL I have a WB and most of the guys tuning SD in here have spent money on a WB. If I command the car for 13:1 and use the WB to achieve actual=commanded then I don’t see how it can hurt anything at 13:1. The most if that is (per magnus) you will suffer from transitional problems which I have none of and know of a few more that will vouch for that. Have you ever seen an aussie’s tune on a load dyno? All of the ve tables here are “real”, most Actual=commanded. If that is what the motor is asking for that is what it is getting. If you read a few posts back aside from any transitional issues that may arise all of the ve tables are "dialed" in. Worst case scenario a spikey graph is a rich graph. Those "Dips" you see are cells that aren’t and haven’t been touched by the tuners driving habits. That is where the smoothing comes in. Black02SS sent Keith a tune last night in which he commented his graph is smooth for the DATA POINTS HE HIT. and would probably be better if he got rid of some of the spike that are in the 15kpa region (letting off the gas and coasting).
There would be no new pistons bought why because worst case scenario is a spikey graph is a rich graphand the only thing being hurt by it at that point is gas mileage.
Question. Without looking at the rest of the tune or seeing the histograms, knock sensors, actual afr and all that other data people have been collecting for so long trying to dial these things in, how can you make a generalized statement about the healthiness of anyone’s tune.
You can change every cell in every other table that doesn’t mean its correct either. All the SD tunes in here if a WB is used was tuned for 13:1 if the NB o2's were used it was dialed in using LTRIM information. I fail to see how the PCM would intentionally fry pistons if it doesn’t/wont deviate from 14.7:1 in closed loop and 13:1 in open loop.
Theoretical perfect matching this and that. I disagree. I bought a WB not to listen to theory but to see with my own eyes. I trust that it and the NBO2 sensors are right for what they are being used for. If 13:1 is ok on the dyno why can’t it be ok for a SD tune. Read up on it a little and see what people are doing and how we are getting there then get back to us
PS I haven’t seen KR or anything of the sort since I started tuning SD using the ve table. What I did get with my spiked table is better throttle response, low end response and a clearer picture of what is going on… After dialing in Arrons car in SD mode on the street and at the track he didnt even know it was missing. Went 117mph and went home. The ONLY reason he knew it wasnt connected was because of the SES light on the dash
There would be no new pistons bought why because worst case scenario is a spikey graph is a rich graphand the only thing being hurt by it at that point is gas mileage.
Question. Without looking at the rest of the tune or seeing the histograms, knock sensors, actual afr and all that other data people have been collecting for so long trying to dial these things in, how can you make a generalized statement about the healthiness of anyone’s tune.
You can change every cell in every other table that doesn’t mean its correct either. All the SD tunes in here if a WB is used was tuned for 13:1 if the NB o2's were used it was dialed in using LTRIM information. I fail to see how the PCM would intentionally fry pistons if it doesn’t/wont deviate from 14.7:1 in closed loop and 13:1 in open loop.
Theoretical perfect matching this and that. I disagree. I bought a WB not to listen to theory but to see with my own eyes. I trust that it and the NBO2 sensors are right for what they are being used for. If 13:1 is ok on the dyno why can’t it be ok for a SD tune. Read up on it a little and see what people are doing and how we are getting there then get back to us
PS I haven’t seen KR or anything of the sort since I started tuning SD using the ve table. What I did get with my spiked table is better throttle response, low end response and a clearer picture of what is going on… After dialing in Arrons car in SD mode on the street and at the track he didnt even know it was missing. Went 117mph and went home. The ONLY reason he knew it wasnt connected was because of the SES light on the dash
Last edited by HumpinSS; 02-21-2005 at 11:49 PM.
02-22-2005, 12:06 AM
#87
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If GM could’ve tuned these cars with 4 tables they could’ve saved their selves a whole lot of cash instead of spending millions to develop, test, pass emissions and make power with these PCM's. Matter of fact they would’ve been able to give me a bigger engine than a 346 all they wouldve ncluded in the glove box was a screwdriver and some jets 
Currently HPTuners and EFILive offer 15+ idle pids. They have provided us with tables to tune it, why. Because to get the best drivability/gas mileage out of these cammed cars with 11* overlap and .050 more and more adjustments need to be made for us to meet those goals. A lot of cant take a car that buck, surges, cruise controls or burns more than 17 m/gallon..
"Think outside the box" is the motto of the company I work as a Software Engineer without it there will be NO MORE INOVATION
Currently HPTuners and EFILive offer 15+ idle pids. They have provided us with tables to tune it, why. Because to get the best drivability/gas mileage out of these cammed cars with 11* overlap and .050 more and more adjustments need to be made for us to meet those goals. A lot of cant take a car that buck, surges, cruise controls or burns more than 17 m/gallon..
"Think outside the box" is the motto of the company I work as a Software Engineer without it there will be NO MORE INOVATION
02-22-2005, 06:06 AM
#88
...probably not really interesting...
This is my 98 Trans Am with stock internals.
It's similar to the stock table but I managed to check 70% of the cells so I got the confirmation it's correct. No spikes at all.
Low rpm vs map cells are lower than stock, higher cells are higher.
I checked because there were voices the 98's were wrong somehow.
Method: disconnect the MAF, low octane timing = high octane, all using LTFT during several days.
This is my 98 Trans Am with stock internals.
It's similar to the stock table but I managed to check 70% of the cells so I got the confirmation it's correct. No spikes at all.
Low rpm vs map cells are lower than stock, higher cells are higher.
I checked because there were voices the 98's were wrong somehow.
Method: disconnect the MAF, low octane timing = high octane, all using LTFT during several days.
02-22-2005, 08:05 AM
#89
Originally Posted by GrannySShifting
Holy ****, after looking at some of your guys VE tables running in SD mode, I wonder how you havent hurt anything yet. Luckily an NA motor is much forgiving. The only "real" ve table Ive so far is Magnus. On an NA motor, highest VE values will be recorded at high load (90kPa-105 kPa) and withing a few hundred rpm of peak torque... as well as recorded pulsewidth values. You can change every cell in your VE table, but that doesnt mean that it is correct
If these were on some forced induction cars, I could see lots of new pistons being bought. No offense meant by this post guys, but after seeing some posts on here some guys are too busy trying to chase a theoretical perfect matching this or that, and not speeding enough time actual tuning and getting results out of their "tune"
If these were on some forced induction cars, I could see lots of new pistons being bought. No offense meant by this post guys, but after seeing some posts on here some guys are too busy trying to chase a theoretical perfect matching this or that, and not speeding enough time actual tuning and getting results out of their "tune"
02-22-2005, 08:08 AM
#90
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Originally Posted by Black02SS
I would comment on this, but it appears Humpin took the words right out of my mouth. Have you ever tuned a open loop/SD car with a wideband using the VE table and done it right?
02-22-2005, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by txhorns281
I most certainly have... I don't know why your VE looks so rocky... On page 2, as I was tuning mine out via wideband/SD/open loop, it started to take shape, and from there I only had to do a minor bit of hand smoothing... And I got all the mods too??? What procedure have you been using to tune?
He was replying to Granny
02-22-2005, 08:19 AM
#92
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Originally Posted by txhorns281
I most certainly have... I don't know why your VE looks so rocky... On page 2, as I was tuning mine out via wideband/SD/open loop, it started to take shape, and from there I only had to do a minor bit of hand smoothing... And I got all the mods too??? What procedure have you been using to tune?
His ve table looks rocky one because he didnt touch some cells in his graph and left them untouched and two some sort of DFCo is happening when he lets off the throttle. The cells he has hit are pretty smooth its the surrounding cells that hvent been hit where everyone is looking and saying "damn that is a spikey graph"
02-22-2005, 08:41 AM
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Here is a stock GTS mafless from the factory tune. Even though is isnt as rough as some in this thread (cammed cars) it is rough none the less 
Quoted from this thread
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.p...7527;start=6#6
uk_hsv
Chris..... if I end up with a spikey VE table (like the GTS) after tuning the table I should not try and smooth the table out?
Chris..... if I end up with a spikey VE table (like the GTS) after tuning the table I should not try and smooth the table out?
gameover/Chris from Hptuners
as long as it is correct, i wouldn't bother. But be aware that a rough VE table will be more succeptable to tripping burst knock unless you tune that out.
The ultimate measure here is wahever it takes to eliminate the error between commanded and measured AFR. We have added some new features to the scanner histogram and editor for 1.6 to make tuning your VE a dream with the WBO2 and EIO interface.
Chris...
as long as it is correct, i wouldn't bother. But be aware that a rough VE table will be more succeptable to tripping burst knock unless you tune that out.
The ultimate measure here is wahever it takes to eliminate the error between commanded and measured AFR. We have added some new features to the scanner histogram and editor for 1.6 to make tuning your VE a dream with the WBO2 and EIO interface.
Chris...
Quoted from this thread
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.p...7527;start=6#6
02-22-2005, 08:47 AM
#94
Originally Posted by txhorns281
I most certainly have... I don't know why your VE looks so rocky... On page 2, as I was tuning mine out via wideband/SD/open loop, it started to take shape, and from there I only had to do a minor bit of hand smoothing... And I got all the mods too??? What procedure have you been using to tune?
02-22-2005, 08:54 AM
#95
Originally Posted by txhorns281
What procedure have you been using to tune?
02-22-2005, 08:57 AM
#97
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Or the pe and ifr table would look like ****. I have een using the same methods also I jsut havent been smoothing
02-22-2005, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Black02SS
And why haven't you been smoothing the VE table??? Is it because when you do the actual afr goes all wacko and is no longer inline with the commanded??
Because I like cooking pistons with my 13:1 AFR
02-22-2005, 09:06 AM
#99
Keith - I am curious as to your tune. Is your IFR table stock? When you adjusted your PE table, does it mathematically correspond to the afr you see?? ie 14.62857/1.13=12.96. Is your Open loop AFR table back to stock values as well after you adjusted the VE table??
