Predator 101 (sticky?)
No, the predator does not allow for precise changes in the VE or PE or anything as far as I know. All they want to know is part throttle driving fuel trims to tune the car with, which is at about 30-40 kPa and about 1700-2300 rpm, there is no FINE tuning going on here.
I've never seen the actual program they use so I cant comment on that. But I do know that HP Tuners is a lot better deal. If you go in with someone, or get some bucks helping someone out it could be cheaper. Like I said on my car, with HP Tuners, it made a world of difference. I compaired a Diablo file to mine, the Diablo tables, when put in 3D arent pretty. But its the best handheld out there IMO.
I've never seen the actual program they use so I cant comment on that. But I do know that HP Tuners is a lot better deal. If you go in with someone, or get some bucks helping someone out it could be cheaper. Like I said on my car, with HP Tuners, it made a world of difference. I compaired a Diablo file to mine, the Diablo tables, when put in 3D arent pretty. But its the best handheld out there IMO.
The Predator itself is limited like mentioned. However, places like RWTD can do custom tuning which will allow for precise changes in the VE & spark tables
http://www.diablosport.com/customtuning.php
Also there are places like Speed Inc who can tune the car using LS1 Edit, HPT, etc.. and the end user can still use the Predator.
If you bought your Predator from RWTD they offer free unlimted custom tuning for as long as you own the unit. Obviously it's not as convienient as being able to make adjustments yourself but nonetheless can still be done.
I have a friend who is using the Preadator on his 03 Cobra, he brought his car to Speed Inc for dyno tuning. His car is putting down over 430 at the rear wheels, they were able to tweak the predator tune he had in the car and get another 6-7 rwhp out of the car.
http://www.diablosport.com/customtuning.php
Also there are places like Speed Inc who can tune the car using LS1 Edit, HPT, etc.. and the end user can still use the Predator.
If you bought your Predator from RWTD they offer free unlimted custom tuning for as long as you own the unit. Obviously it's not as convienient as being able to make adjustments yourself but nonetheless can still be done.
I have a friend who is using the Preadator on his 03 Cobra, he brought his car to Speed Inc for dyno tuning. His car is putting down over 430 at the rear wheels, they were able to tweak the predator tune he had in the car and get another 6-7 rwhp out of the car.
Originally Posted by rawlitogut
Why 930 for Lts headers?
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From: Lake Zurich, IL
1 thing to keep in mind is that tuning via narrowband sensors involves ALOT of guesswork... back before wideband's were affordable I would generally err on the side of rich rather than lean
That being said, if you're reading 830/840 now, pulling out more fuel will cause that number to decrease further... so you need to add fuel to try and bring those numbers up....
That being said, if you're reading 830/840 now, pulling out more fuel will cause that number to decrease further... so you need to add fuel to try and bring those numbers up....
okay so i should PE enrich it 5+% to get it around 900 or less to be safe.Q. could i advance the timing 5% , ? i already have the PE up 1% so i guess ill go 6 and see what happens.
my LTFT seemed to stay 0.00 constantly during WOT. i almost began to question the reading. during cruing it seemed to rarely go positive. fluxing between -1.0 and -7.00 during load.
no knock so far. besideds when i had an octane booster from kmart in the tank. i run 91+ octane. i also took my SLP maf and bellow out to ease in tuning.
my LTFT seemed to stay 0.00 constantly during WOT. i almost began to question the reading. during cruing it seemed to rarely go positive. fluxing between -1.0 and -7.00 during load.
no knock so far. besideds when i had an octane booster from kmart in the tank. i run 91+ octane. i also took my SLP maf and bellow out to ease in tuning.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Senior Member
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From: Lake Zurich, IL
yea more fuel would likely help... with timing it's hard to tell... best bet with timing would be to adjust while at the track... the difficult part is that sounds like the predator raising timing across the board, but in reality for timing tuning you don't necessary want a set gain all the way across... depending on mods (largely dependent on head efficiency and choise of cam) there are some points you leave timing, some you raise timing, or may even be some spots you lower timing....
were it me i'd err on the side of extra fuel rather than lean, and too little timing rather than too much .. if you go to a track where you can get tangible results, then I would raise timing slowly (lowest increment they allow) to see if you notice any gains (sometimes while tuning you'll find that adding more timing doesn't even help the performance... or even hurts performance... even w/out KR)
Also don't bother w/the octane booster... when they say raises octane 3-4 points.. that means if you pump in 91.0 octane... it'll raise the octane rating to 91.3/91.4 octane... plus overuse of octane booster will foul your plugs out quicker and leave a red tinge on them (I've seen that from overuse of Octane 104 years back)
were it me i'd err on the side of extra fuel rather than lean, and too little timing rather than too much .. if you go to a track where you can get tangible results, then I would raise timing slowly (lowest increment they allow) to see if you notice any gains (sometimes while tuning you'll find that adding more timing doesn't even help the performance... or even hurts performance... even w/out KR)
Also don't bother w/the octane booster... when they say raises octane 3-4 points.. that means if you pump in 91.0 octane... it'll raise the octane rating to 91.3/91.4 octane... plus overuse of octane booster will foul your plugs out quicker and leave a red tinge on them (I've seen that from overuse of Octane 104 years back)
thanks, ill get some time slips and some better data and come back.
FYI- i just went and tested it, total of 6% PE. my LTFT went positive at .78% and bank 2 remained 0. my o2 was at 900 so that was on the money. i think ill back off 1% to keep the ltft from going positive.
what does your LTFT being positive mean? i figure the STFT is directly proportional to how heavy your right foot is.
what do the differnt banks of fuel trim and o2 sensors mean or what are they for?
FYI- i just went and tested it, total of 6% PE. my LTFT went positive at .78% and bank 2 remained 0. my o2 was at 900 so that was on the money. i think ill back off 1% to keep the ltft from going positive.
what does your LTFT being positive mean? i figure the STFT is directly proportional to how heavy your right foot is.
what do the differnt banks of fuel trim and o2 sensors mean or what are they for?
Last edited by sobaka79; Jan 28, 2007 at 06:29 PM.
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if your ltft's are positive, that means you're running lean and the PCM is adding that much fuel...
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06MonteSS / DiabLew Tune
2014 Camaro 2SS/RS - LS3, 6-speed manual, short-throw performance shifter, NPP dual-mode performance exhaust, 1LE front splitter, ZL1 rockers, Z28 Rear Spoiler, all paint-matched Red Rock Metallic, BMR strut tower brace, Cold Air Inductions cold air intake, Apex Motorsports, Inc. catch-can, Custom DiabLew Tune
www.diablewtune.com -- www.diablocustomtune.com -- www.diablocustomtunegm.com
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From: Commerce Twp, MI
Originally Posted by sobaka79
thanks, ill get some time slips and some better data and come back.
FYI- i just went and tested it, total of 6% PE. my LTFT went positive at .78% and bank 2 remained 0. my o2 was at 900 so that was on the money. i think ill back off 1% to keep the ltft from going positive.
what does your LTFT being positive mean? i figure the STFT is directly proportional to how heavy your right foot is.
what do the differnt banks of fuel trim and o2 sensors mean or what are they for?
FYI- i just went and tested it, total of 6% PE. my LTFT went positive at .78% and bank 2 remained 0. my o2 was at 900 so that was on the money. i think ill back off 1% to keep the ltft from going positive.
what does your LTFT being positive mean? i figure the STFT is directly proportional to how heavy your right foot is.
what do the differnt banks of fuel trim and o2 sensors mean or what are they for?
Remember, WOT fueling is an open-loop form of fueling. In other words, the PCM commands a number. But in the end, it has no clue what AFR it's actually spitting out in the exhaust...and therefore, it can't adjust. It can only make educated guesses based on what it knows from part throttle or closed-loop fueling, which is where the PCM commands the 14.63:1 AFR. That is within the range the NBO2's work and in turn allows the PCM to make known, accurate adjustments to fueling with fuel trims. In other words, it commands the 14.63:1 AFR, reads the exhaust, and closes the loop for the next cycle by making adjustments (ie commanded + 1.6% or commanded -2.4%).
As mentioned above, you want to stay on the safe side. Keep your PE at +6% until you can get your car hooked up to a WBO2. If you're running LT's, I'd even consider going to +7%. As for timing, I'd leave it stock until you can get on a dyno or go to the track. A 1% timing change will increase WOT timing .25~.29 degrees for pre-'01 f-bodies and .15~.25 degrees for '01/'02 f-bodies. The area of greatest concern will be around peak torque. Those areas are typically the most sensitive to increases in timing. So, make sure to keep an eye out for KR around 4000~5000RPM if you up the timing.
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From: sofla
Originally Posted by horist
Do the custom tunes allow for precise changes in the PE , VE, and spark tables? (or is it still everything up everything down?)
The key advantage of an all out tuner is that flexibility ... you don't have to richen all WOT up 5% or x% ... you can richen just certain RPM ranges... you can change spark at certain areas based on load and RPM instead of changing everything ... Plus a full tuner gives you lots of access to all of the misc tables that are really needed for part throttle driveability (a tune is not just WOT ... a good tune is also part throttle for driveability)
Plus if you're tuning once and that's it till changes... no sense even buying the predator or anything ... have it tuned and be done...
The Predator is a decent handheld... but it doesn't compare to the full blown tuners available as far as flexibility, what it can change, and precision (ala HP tuners, Flashscan or even LS1 Edit)
I've never seen the Diablo Tuner program (that lets them make tunes and upload w/a predator) ... anyone know what it's capabilities are?
The key advantage of an all out tuner is that flexibility ... you don't have to richen all WOT up 5% or x% ... you can richen just certain RPM ranges... you can change spark at certain areas based on load and RPM instead of changing everything ... Plus a full tuner gives you lots of access to all of the misc tables that are really needed for part throttle driveability (a tune is not just WOT ... a good tune is also part throttle for driveability)
Plus if you're tuning once and that's it till changes... no sense even buying the predator or anything ... have it tuned and be done...
The Predator is a decent handheld... but it doesn't compare to the full blown tuners available as far as flexibility, what it can change, and precision (ala HP tuners, Flashscan or even LS1 Edit)
I've never seen the Diablo Tuner program (that lets them make tunes and upload w/a predator) ... anyone know what it's capabilities are?
The Predator gives you the ability to adjust fuel and timing over several different rpm ranges depending on the vehicle being tuned.
I love the idea of this being a sticky. I do work for Diablosport and will add any info as I get the chance. So far, everything looks good, but I will read through it today to make sure.
Thanks
Mike
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From: sofla
Originally Posted by sobaka79
thanks, that clarifies alot,
to get a custome tune for my car from diablo, what do i need to do? where would i need to go?
to get a custome tune for my car from diablo, what do i need to do? where would i need to go?
Thanks
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From: Commerce Twp, MI
Originally Posted by sprayjunkie
The Diablosport CMR software is, I would guess, just about as in-depth as anything else out there. The software does allow for fine tuning, cell by cell. We do custom tuning in house here at Diablosport, and we have LSX powered vehicles making big power on blowers, turbos and N20. We have Ford powered vehicles making in excess of 1000rwhp using N20 and a blower on the stock PCM tuned through a Predator. There is no limit (so far) as to what can be done.
The Predator gives you the ability to adjust fuel and timing over several different rpm ranges depending on the vehicle being tuned.
I love the idea of this being a sticky. I do work for Diablosport and will add any info as I get the chance. So far, everything looks good, but I will read through it today to make sure.
Thanks
Mike
The Predator gives you the ability to adjust fuel and timing over several different rpm ranges depending on the vehicle being tuned.
I love the idea of this being a sticky. I do work for Diablosport and will add any info as I get the chance. So far, everything looks good, but I will read through it today to make sure.
Thanks
Mike
I believe the point horist was trying to make was focused on the user end. Yes, the CMR software offers a great deal of capability in the many tables and details within the PCM. But, not to the users who buy the handhelds. Only to the "dealers" who shell out the thousands of dollars to buy the software. The handhelds are limited to the functions he listed. So, you can go spend a little more on a full tuning suite (like what EFI Live or HPT offers) and have all of the access of the CMR software for a fraction of the cost.....OR.....you can spend the same amount on a Predator + the cost the "authorized dealer" charges you to tune your car once. Mod your car two or three times after the initial tune and I doubt that CMR dealer will retune you for free, whereas if you owned your own tuning suite you could handle your own business until the car is sold or dies.
most of us cant even properly use the available tuning features, why would i step up to something i am clueless about? i bet 90+% of the user end is not knowledgeable enough to use it safely.
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From: Commerce Twp, MI
Originally Posted by sobaka79
most of us cant even properly use the available tuning features, why would i step up to something i am clueless about? i bet 90+% of the user end is not knowledgeable enough to use it safely.
If there is anything we miss as an end user is the experience/knowledge that the guys in the shop have. The funny thing is, I've found that if you talk to them and show some interest, they'll be happy to share a few tips with you here and there.
In the end, it comes down to what kind of person you are and to some degree your intelligence (or should I say problem solving skills). If you aren't intimidated by a computer and can see relationships in a virtual system, then you are more than capable of tuning your own car. If you're the type of person that wants to drop off his car, have someone do all of the work/tuning, and then pick it up turn-key without understanding why some issues occur and what they mean....then a tuning suite is not for you.
what kind of predator did you use? i got mine and it seems to have more otions like 0-2k , 2k-4k & 4k-7k, for fuel and spark and adjustable 1% increments... are we using the same unit? or has predator changed anything?
i realize that if you could adjust every 50 rpm, you could have a better tuned car, but with the PCM adjusting everything, is it worth it for i mildy modded bolt on car??
i realize that if you could adjust every 50 rpm, you could have a better tuned car, but with the PCM adjusting everything, is it worth it for i mildy modded bolt on car??
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From: sofla
Originally Posted by sobaka79
what kind of predator did you use? i got mine and it seems to have more otions like 0-2k , 2k-4k & 4k-7k, for fuel and spark and adjustable 1% increments... are we using the same unit? or has predator changed anything?
i realize that if you could adjust every 50 rpm, you could have a better tuned car, but with the PCM adjusting everything, is it worth it for i mildy modded bolt on car??
i realize that if you could adjust every 50 rpm, you could have a better tuned car, but with the PCM adjusting everything, is it worth it for i mildy modded bolt on car??
Thanks
Mike