FAST, MS, or BS3?
10-20-2005, 09:45 AM
#21
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 427
Scott,
We seem to run around on points here where you explain why I don't need what MS can't do. Or BS3 is just not good.
Parish's truck+MS= missfire at high boost.20+
My 352 LS1+Bs3=no missfire at 30+psi (at rpm's reaching 9000) Currently fastest/quickest ls1 on planet, using truck coils just like Parish.
MS has its place i'm sure.
BS3 has its place also.
Kurt
My friend that works with MS is Ray Burmley from here in Mi.
We seem to run around on points here where you explain why I don't need what MS can't do. Or BS3 is just not good.
Parish's truck+MS= missfire at high boost.20+
My 352 LS1+Bs3=no missfire at 30+psi (at rpm's reaching 9000) Currently fastest/quickest ls1 on planet, using truck coils just like Parish.
MS has its place i'm sure.
BS3 has its place also.
Kurt
My friend that works with MS is Ray Burmley from here in Mi.
Kurt -
This wasn't intended to be a pissing contest. I totally see why you run/sell aftermarket standalones. I did NOT say that "you" don't need what MS cannot do - but I *am* saying you're one of the few people who need/use SEFI and cylinder trims (which isn't really SEFI) for tuning. But I also think some guys just don't need to spend the money when all this can be done cheaper, as some people don't have your or your customers' budget. So please, RELAX - this isn't a sales competition, or a big ***** contest, or anything like that. I have nothing but respect for you, from where I sit...
that being said:
Are you trying to imply that if someone uses MS on a high-power combo, they're guaranteed to have a high-boost miss? Because we made the changes YOU recommended last night to the dwell settings and it appears our "miss" is gone. That miss has ZERO to do with megasquirt. We still have turbulence, or something that causes our MAP signal to be +/- 10 kpa from target, these are the types of issues ANY guy is going to run into when building a high-powered combo, I would think. I don't know anyone that builds big power and doesn't spend the majority of their time debugging issues.
I really hope I misunderstood the comparison you made above. If I didn't, then you should add some other "details..."
like, can you drive your 1900HP LS1 2400 miles across the country on pump fuel? You should have brought it on drag week, that would have been killer!!!!
If your implication is "MS = junk" - we're all entitled to our own opinions. It's proven itself as far as I am concerned, however!!
10-20-2005, 12:57 PM
#22
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
This is not a sales thing, although I do sell BS3 and FAST. You are claiming that the 3 systems listed are the same except for price. That is not true.
You are claiming MS can do anything the others can do. That is not true.
I am perfectly relaxed.
I have not tried to "imply" anything, i'm stating facts. Your claims that the MS can do it all need some testing to back them up. The only engine I see that is running on MS has a missfire at high boost. It is not running coil control with MS. You claim MS can run coil control.
I can give you many examples of engines with BS3 that don't miss at high boost, I chose my engine as it is here and I own it.
This thread was not started to find out which system can drive drag week better. Although I am confident that my engine/BS3 combo could survive drag week, the car its currently in would kill me.
Your clear question was: can you drive your 1900HP LS1 2400 miles across the country on pump fuel. My answer is Yes.
If your implication is "MS = junk" - we're all entitled to our own opinions. It's proven itself as far as I am concerned, however!!
Never said anything was junk. What I said was the two systems do not compare on ability.
Kurt
You are claiming MS can do anything the others can do. That is not true.
I am perfectly relaxed.
I have not tried to "imply" anything, i'm stating facts. Your claims that the MS can do it all need some testing to back them up. The only engine I see that is running on MS has a missfire at high boost. It is not running coil control with MS. You claim MS can run coil control.
I can give you many examples of engines with BS3 that don't miss at high boost, I chose my engine as it is here and I own it.
This thread was not started to find out which system can drive drag week better. Although I am confident that my engine/BS3 combo could survive drag week, the car its currently in would kill me.
Your clear question was: can you drive your 1900HP LS1 2400 miles across the country on pump fuel. My answer is Yes.
If your implication is "MS = junk" - we're all entitled to our own opinions. It's proven itself as far as I am concerned, however!!
Never said anything was junk. What I said was the two systems do not compare on ability.
Kurt
Originally Posted by dieselgeek
Kurt -
This wasn't intended to be a pissing contest. I totally see why you run/sell aftermarket standalones. I did NOT say that "you" don't need what MS cannot do - but I *am* saying you're one of the few people who need/use SEFI and cylinder trims (which isn't really SEFI) for tuning. But I also think some guys just don't need to spend the money when all this can be done cheaper, as some people don't have your or your customers' budget. So please, RELAX - this isn't a sales competition, or a big ***** contest, or anything like that. I have nothing but respect for you, from where I sit...
that being said:
Are you trying to imply that if someone uses MS on a high-power combo, they're guaranteed to have a high-boost miss? Because we made the changes YOU recommended last night to the dwell settings and it appears our "miss" is gone. That miss has ZERO to do with megasquirt. We still have turbulence, or something that causes our MAP signal to be +/- 10 kpa from target, these are the types of issues ANY guy is going to run into when building a high-powered combo, I would think. I don't know anyone that builds big power and doesn't spend the majority of their time debugging issues.
I really hope I misunderstood the comparison you made above. If I didn't, then you should add some other "details..."
like, can you drive your 1900HP LS1 2400 miles across the country on pump fuel? You should have brought it on drag week, that would have been killer!!!!
If your implication is "MS = junk" - we're all entitled to our own opinions. It's proven itself as far as I am concerned, however!!
This wasn't intended to be a pissing contest. I totally see why you run/sell aftermarket standalones. I did NOT say that "you" don't need what MS cannot do - but I *am* saying you're one of the few people who need/use SEFI and cylinder trims (which isn't really SEFI) for tuning. But I also think some guys just don't need to spend the money when all this can be done cheaper, as some people don't have your or your customers' budget. So please, RELAX - this isn't a sales competition, or a big ***** contest, or anything like that. I have nothing but respect for you, from where I sit...
that being said:
Are you trying to imply that if someone uses MS on a high-power combo, they're guaranteed to have a high-boost miss? Because we made the changes YOU recommended last night to the dwell settings and it appears our "miss" is gone. That miss has ZERO to do with megasquirt. We still have turbulence, or something that causes our MAP signal to be +/- 10 kpa from target, these are the types of issues ANY guy is going to run into when building a high-powered combo, I would think. I don't know anyone that builds big power and doesn't spend the majority of their time debugging issues.
I really hope I misunderstood the comparison you made above. If I didn't, then you should add some other "details..."
like, can you drive your 1900HP LS1 2400 miles across the country on pump fuel? You should have brought it on drag week, that would have been killer!!!!
If your implication is "MS = junk" - we're all entitled to our own opinions. It's proven itself as far as I am concerned, however!!
10-20-2005, 01:20 PM
#23
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
????
I didn't claim *anything* about all these systems being the "same except for price" Because the fact is, MS has *far* more options than FAST, BS3, or any other commercial EMS available.
If you're only getting your information from your friend you claim "developed" the megasquirt, perhaps this is the problem.... because no one I know on the MS boards have ever heard of this guy, so perhaps he's pulling your leg a bit?? I've been near the core of MS development for over a year and never heard of him either.
Here is a list of features supported by MS, it will help if you take the time to read them. Then you'll understand that, in actuality, MS does a LOT more than a BS3 or FAST.
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
Brief example - does BS3 work with a Flex Fuel sensor? How about trailing spark on a Rotary engine? (that's not an LS-1, but I think we can call it an "engine" also). How well does BS3 or FAST work with a Mass Airflow Sensor? Can FAST or BS3 do a PWM idle air control motor? EGT logging?
As for you only seeing one MS engine. Again, does "engine = LS1" in this discussion? or can I show you the 300+ mph bonneville motorcycle that runs MS.... or the 7.0 sec Harley drag bike... how many airplanes run BS3 or FAST? How many BS3s or FAST's were sold last year? Over 10,000 megasquirt units were sold. I'd like to know how that compares form a market share standpoint. Fact is, grassroots motorsports is a BIG industry and LOTS of people are into DIY EFI.
Back to the original point. You are right - these systems do NOT compare on ability because the fact is, Megasquirt kicks the CRAP out of any commercial standalone when it comes to "ability."
Regarding LS1 coilpack control... Ls1 coils are triggered with a 5v signal. Simple enough. Once we take the time to get it working, we'll gladly document it for you and show you that, although we're not the fastest LS1 in the world, it will work just fine on an LS1 and any other engine out there...
-scott
I didn't claim *anything* about all these systems being the "same except for price" Because the fact is, MS has *far* more options than FAST, BS3, or any other commercial EMS available.
If you're only getting your information from your friend you claim "developed" the megasquirt, perhaps this is the problem.... because no one I know on the MS boards have ever heard of this guy, so perhaps he's pulling your leg a bit?? I've been near the core of MS development for over a year and never heard of him either.
Here is a list of features supported by MS, it will help if you take the time to read them. Then you'll understand that, in actuality, MS does a LOT more than a BS3 or FAST.
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
Brief example - does BS3 work with a Flex Fuel sensor? How about trailing spark on a Rotary engine? (that's not an LS-1, but I think we can call it an "engine" also). How well does BS3 or FAST work with a Mass Airflow Sensor? Can FAST or BS3 do a PWM idle air control motor? EGT logging?
As for you only seeing one MS engine. Again, does "engine = LS1" in this discussion? or can I show you the 300+ mph bonneville motorcycle that runs MS.... or the 7.0 sec Harley drag bike... how many airplanes run BS3 or FAST? How many BS3s or FAST's were sold last year? Over 10,000 megasquirt units were sold. I'd like to know how that compares form a market share standpoint. Fact is, grassroots motorsports is a BIG industry and LOTS of people are into DIY EFI.
Back to the original point. You are right - these systems do NOT compare on ability because the fact is, Megasquirt kicks the CRAP out of any commercial standalone when it comes to "ability."
Regarding LS1 coilpack control... Ls1 coils are triggered with a 5v signal. Simple enough. Once we take the time to get it working, we'll gladly document it for you and show you that, although we're not the fastest LS1 in the world, it will work just fine on an LS1 and any other engine out there...
-scott
Last edited by dieselgeek; 10-20-2005 at 01:27 PM.
10-20-2005, 03:25 PM
#24
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
The thread was about a LT1. My examples because of your friend are LS1.
I am always open to new systems that push my customers or my engines faster, better or cheaper. MS does none of the above.
You seem to want to attack people's devices or me personally. I don't see any reason to continue.
Thanks
Kurt
I am always open to new systems that push my customers or my engines faster, better or cheaper. MS does none of the above.
You seem to want to attack people's devices or me personally. I don't see any reason to continue.
Thanks
Kurt
Originally Posted by dieselgeek
????
I didn't claim *anything* about all these systems being the "same except for price" Because the fact is, MS has *far* more options than FAST, BS3, or any other commercial EMS available.
If you're only getting your information from your friend you claim "developed" the megasquirt, perhaps this is the problem.... because no one I know on the MS boards have ever heard of this guy, so perhaps he's pulling your leg a bit?? I've been near the core of MS development for over a year and never heard of him either.
Here is a list of features supported by MS, it will help if you take the time to read them. Then you'll understand that, in actuality, MS does a LOT more than a BS3 or FAST.
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
Brief example - does BS3 work with a Flex Fuel sensor? How about trailing spark on a Rotary engine? (that's not an LS-1, but I think we can call it an "engine" also). How well does BS3 or FAST work with a Mass Airflow Sensor? Can FAST or BS3 do a PWM idle air control motor? EGT logging?
As for you only seeing one MS engine. Again, does "engine = LS1" in this discussion? or can I show you the 300+ mph bonneville motorcycle that runs MS.... or the 7.0 sec Harley drag bike... how many airplanes run BS3 or FAST? How many BS3s or FAST's were sold last year? Over 10,000 megasquirt units were sold. I'd like to know how that compares form a market share standpoint. Fact is, grassroots motorsports is a BIG industry and LOTS of people are into DIY EFI.
Back to the original point. You are right - these systems do NOT compare on ability because the fact is, Megasquirt kicks the CRAP out of any commercial standalone when it comes to "ability."
Regarding LS1 coilpack control... Ls1 coils are triggered with a 5v signal. Simple enough. Once we take the time to get it working, we'll gladly document it for you and show you that, although we're not the fastest LS1 in the world, it will work just fine on an LS1 and any other engine out there...
-scott
I didn't claim *anything* about all these systems being the "same except for price" Because the fact is, MS has *far* more options than FAST, BS3, or any other commercial EMS available.
If you're only getting your information from your friend you claim "developed" the megasquirt, perhaps this is the problem.... because no one I know on the MS boards have ever heard of this guy, so perhaps he's pulling your leg a bit?? I've been near the core of MS development for over a year and never heard of him either.
Here is a list of features supported by MS, it will help if you take the time to read them. Then you'll understand that, in actuality, MS does a LOT more than a BS3 or FAST.
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra
Brief example - does BS3 work with a Flex Fuel sensor? How about trailing spark on a Rotary engine? (that's not an LS-1, but I think we can call it an "engine" also). How well does BS3 or FAST work with a Mass Airflow Sensor? Can FAST or BS3 do a PWM idle air control motor? EGT logging?
As for you only seeing one MS engine. Again, does "engine = LS1" in this discussion? or can I show you the 300+ mph bonneville motorcycle that runs MS.... or the 7.0 sec Harley drag bike... how many airplanes run BS3 or FAST? How many BS3s or FAST's were sold last year? Over 10,000 megasquirt units were sold. I'd like to know how that compares form a market share standpoint. Fact is, grassroots motorsports is a BIG industry and LOTS of people are into DIY EFI.
Back to the original point. You are right - these systems do NOT compare on ability because the fact is, Megasquirt kicks the CRAP out of any commercial standalone when it comes to "ability."
Regarding LS1 coilpack control... Ls1 coils are triggered with a 5v signal. Simple enough. Once we take the time to get it working, we'll gladly document it for you and show you that, although we're not the fastest LS1 in the world, it will work just fine on an LS1 and any other engine out there...
-scott
10-20-2005, 03:38 PM
#25
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kurt, give me a break.
I didn't attack you personally.
You said MS doesn't do the same things as the above systems - and I showed you that it actually does more - then no reply. With exception of direct coilpack control of the LS-1 specific coilpacks (hate to break it to you, but there are MS'd 2JZs running - guess what - LS1 truck coilpacks to 35+psi).
Even in your most recent post you say MS does not push engines better, faster, or cheaper. You are wrong about the "cheaper" part. In fact, I think it's a bit misleading of you to discuss Engine Management Systems "pushing engines harder, faster" - are you implying that any EMS might make more power on a given motor than another EMS??? Certainly you don't think there's some "magic" in one that gives an advantage over the other? Last time I checked, they all did the exact same thing!
It sounds to me like the only valid argument in all your threads is that MS isn't controlling LS1 coilpacks on an LS1 engine yet. Believe me, this thread is new motivation for me to get it done. Then what will you have to say?
I don't mean to sound hostile, but if I post misinformation (MS doesn't do staged injection?), make claims that are incorrect (how about that MS developer you know??), give out bogus references (parish+ms=misfire - when parish's spark is not even controlled by MS???), I will EXPECT someone to call me out on it. I'm kinda disappointed in the nonsequitur argument tactics. I expected more, I guess, from the builder of the fastest LS1 on the planet... People are going to take you seriously, so maybe you should consider being a little more "complete" when you try to make comparisons to other EMSs.
disappointedly,
-scott
I didn't attack you personally.
You said MS doesn't do the same things as the above systems - and I showed you that it actually does more - then no reply. With exception of direct coilpack control of the LS-1 specific coilpacks (hate to break it to you, but there are MS'd 2JZs running - guess what - LS1 truck coilpacks to 35+psi).
Even in your most recent post you say MS does not push engines better, faster, or cheaper. You are wrong about the "cheaper" part. In fact, I think it's a bit misleading of you to discuss Engine Management Systems "pushing engines harder, faster" - are you implying that any EMS might make more power on a given motor than another EMS??? Certainly you don't think there's some "magic" in one that gives an advantage over the other? Last time I checked, they all did the exact same thing!
It sounds to me like the only valid argument in all your threads is that MS isn't controlling LS1 coilpacks on an LS1 engine yet. Believe me, this thread is new motivation for me to get it done. Then what will you have to say?
I don't mean to sound hostile, but if I post misinformation (MS doesn't do staged injection?), make claims that are incorrect (how about that MS developer you know??), give out bogus references (parish+ms=misfire - when parish's spark is not even controlled by MS???), I will EXPECT someone to call me out on it. I'm kinda disappointed in the nonsequitur argument tactics. I expected more, I guess, from the builder of the fastest LS1 on the planet... People are going to take you seriously, so maybe you should consider being a little more "complete" when you try to make comparisons to other EMSs.
disappointedly,
-scott
10-20-2005, 03:59 PM
#26
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
I've been reading this thread, and Scott you come across like this is a right/wrong kind of thing. Fact is, the MS is not as complete solution as a BS3. If it was you would not have needed to use EFILive to change the dwell time of the coils. So technically for Jim's truck you need MS + HPT or EFILive. Just be fair.
I have owned a FAST, now a BS3, and I had a TSI from AU. All have their pros and cons.
Kurt is not a BS3 salesman, he's a solution provider. Heck he helped Magnus and I wire up my FAST, and when I had misfire problems, he helped figure out why. Scott you just seem like you are getting a bit carried away.
I have owned a FAST, now a BS3, and I had a TSI from AU. All have their pros and cons.
Kurt is not a BS3 salesman, he's a solution provider. Heck he helped Magnus and I wire up my FAST, and when I had misfire problems, he helped figure out why. Scott you just seem like you are getting a bit carried away.
10-20-2005, 04:03 PM
#27
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
I've been reading this thread, and Scott you come across like this is a right/wrong kind of thing. Fact is, the MS is not as complete solution as a BS3. If it was you would not have needed to use EFILive to change the dwell time of the coils. So technically for Jim's truck you need MS + HPT or EFILive. Just be fair.
I have owned a FAST, now a BS3, and I had a TSI from AU. All have their pros and cons.
Kurt is not a BS3 salesman, he's a solution provider. Heck he helped Magnus and I wire up my FAST, and when I had misfire problems, he helped figure out why. Scott you just seem like you are getting a bit carried away.
I have owned a FAST, now a BS3, and I had a TSI from AU. All have their pros and cons.
Kurt is not a BS3 salesman, he's a solution provider. Heck he helped Magnus and I wire up my FAST, and when I had misfire problems, he helped figure out why. Scott you just seem like you are getting a bit carried away.
Well PSJ, let me make a bunch of misinformed quotes about YOUR combo and we'll see how YOU respond.
You're all entitled to your own misopinions - have fun tuning!
-scott
10-20-2005, 04:10 PM
#28
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
Scott, you still seem hot.
Let me say, if I was doing a new combo right now... I would do HPT, and see how that went. I never wanted an aftermarket solution, it's what I had to do to make 900 hp and get down the track. I don't even know if HPT can support say 900rwhp but I'd be trying it before I ditched the stock pcm. Would I try the MS? Probably not, only because it sounds pretty custom to me. If a guy sold it as a LS1 package I'd probably be more enthused. After what I went through to make the FAST work I'm leery of stuff that can be used on a Ford, a Harley, and a Viper... That's like how the FAST was marketed.
I'm not a BS3 sales guy either.
Let me say, if I was doing a new combo right now... I would do HPT, and see how that went. I never wanted an aftermarket solution, it's what I had to do to make 900 hp and get down the track. I don't even know if HPT can support say 900rwhp but I'd be trying it before I ditched the stock pcm. Would I try the MS? Probably not, only because it sounds pretty custom to me. If a guy sold it as a LS1 package I'd probably be more enthused. After what I went through to make the FAST work I'm leery of stuff that can be used on a Ford, a Harley, and a Viper... That's like how the FAST was marketed.
I'm not a BS3 sales guy either.
10-20-2005, 05:19 PM
#29
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Originally Posted by dieselgeek
Kurt, give me a break.
I didn't attack you personally.< I disagree.>
You said MS doesn't do the same things as the above systems - and I showed you that it actually does more - then no reply. With exception of direct coilpack control of the LS-1 specific coilpacks (hate to break it to you, but there are MS'd 2JZs running - guess what - LS1 truck coilpacks to 35+psi).< I was reffering to your use on Parish truck>
Even in your most recent post you say MS does not push engines better, faster, or cheaper. You are wrong about the "cheaper" part. In fact, I think it's a bit misleading of you to discuss Engine Management Systems "pushing engines harder, faster" - are you implying that any EMS might make more power on a given motor than another EMS??? Certainly you don't think there's some "magic" in one that gives an advantage over the other? Last time I checked, they all did the exact same thing!<I'm talking about all engine components that are better or cheaper with same ability's. The ability to adjust my spark on individual cylinders makes my car faster>
It sounds to me like the only valid argument in all your threads is that MS isn't controlling LS1 coilpacks on an LS1 engine yet. Believe me, this thread is new motivation for me to get it done. Then what will you have to say?
<Now that it will work for my customers, how much is it.>
I don't mean to sound hostile, but if I post misinformation (MS doesn't do staged injection?), make claims that are incorrect (how about that MS developer you know??), give out bogus references (parish+ms=misfire - when parish's spark is not even controlled by MS???), I will EXPECT someone to call me out on it. I'm kinda disappointed in the nonsequitur argument tactics. I expected more, I guess, from the builder of the fastest LS1 on the planet... People are going to take you seriously, so maybe you should consider being a little more "complete" when you try to make comparisons to other EMSs.
< The fact that I know someone you don't does not make or break the ability's of either system. You stated that the builder of BS3 told you the software has bugs, I called the builder, he says he did not. I did not claim that Parish has MS control of coils. I wonder when you say it does more than all others why it does not fire his coils. Its a question. You say its going to do it soon. And you say it does more than all others. This may be true, but it does not have a simple function that I would need for my customers at this time. These are observations. When I am asked a question, I give an answer. The thread was which one is better for a LT1 with the thought in mind that his friend has a FAST for a LT1 he can buy used.>
disappointedly,
-scott
I didn't attack you personally.< I disagree.>
You said MS doesn't do the same things as the above systems - and I showed you that it actually does more - then no reply. With exception of direct coilpack control of the LS-1 specific coilpacks (hate to break it to you, but there are MS'd 2JZs running - guess what - LS1 truck coilpacks to 35+psi).< I was reffering to your use on Parish truck>
Even in your most recent post you say MS does not push engines better, faster, or cheaper. You are wrong about the "cheaper" part. In fact, I think it's a bit misleading of you to discuss Engine Management Systems "pushing engines harder, faster" - are you implying that any EMS might make more power on a given motor than another EMS??? Certainly you don't think there's some "magic" in one that gives an advantage over the other? Last time I checked, they all did the exact same thing!<I'm talking about all engine components that are better or cheaper with same ability's. The ability to adjust my spark on individual cylinders makes my car faster>
It sounds to me like the only valid argument in all your threads is that MS isn't controlling LS1 coilpacks on an LS1 engine yet. Believe me, this thread is new motivation for me to get it done. Then what will you have to say?
<Now that it will work for my customers, how much is it.>
I don't mean to sound hostile, but if I post misinformation (MS doesn't do staged injection?), make claims that are incorrect (how about that MS developer you know??), give out bogus references (parish+ms=misfire - when parish's spark is not even controlled by MS???), I will EXPECT someone to call me out on it. I'm kinda disappointed in the nonsequitur argument tactics. I expected more, I guess, from the builder of the fastest LS1 on the planet... People are going to take you seriously, so maybe you should consider being a little more "complete" when you try to make comparisons to other EMSs.
< The fact that I know someone you don't does not make or break the ability's of either system. You stated that the builder of BS3 told you the software has bugs, I called the builder, he says he did not. I did not claim that Parish has MS control of coils. I wonder when you say it does more than all others why it does not fire his coils. Its a question. You say its going to do it soon. And you say it does more than all others. This may be true, but it does not have a simple function that I would need for my customers at this time. These are observations. When I am asked a question, I give an answer. The thread was which one is better for a LT1 with the thought in mind that his friend has a FAST for a LT1 he can buy used.>
disappointedly,
-scott
Kurt
10-20-2005, 10:10 PM
#30
Originally Posted by 427
You have a ton of passion for the MS. That is a good thing. You have a friend with a fast truck that also has alot of passion. I will do my best to be on Dragweek next year so you can show me all the ability's I can sell my customers.
Kurt
Kurt
10-21-2005, 09:08 AM
#31
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoah guys, nut it down a notch or two 
This thread has strayed from "What EMS for an LT1" so I'm thinking we should split and move it -- I want to continue the discussion
I have a vendor wanting to come on board selling MegaSquirt kits, right now. I'm trying to work with John and Tony to make that happen. MS is really a community-built and community-supported product. I don't expect it to compete in the "plug and play" market because of that. I WOULD like to see OUR community customize and "package" the unit to where it does, which is really not difficult to accomplish at all.
There's a lot of things the MS can do, and a lot of things it COULD do. The COULD list is limited only by the community, which is a huge strength. With the BS3/FAST/AEM/etc. you're at the mercy of the vendor, but you also generally get a product more targeted directly to what you're doing. There's benefits to each, there's detriments to each.
Kurt, John: I'd love nothing more than to put a fully built and configured MegaSquirt in your hands to evaluate. I think it would at least give you an appreciation for the fact a "cheap" unit can provide such a large amount of stability, ease of use, and performance.
This thread has strayed from "What EMS for an LT1" so I'm thinking we should split and move it -- I want to continue the discussion
I have a vendor wanting to come on board selling MegaSquirt kits, right now. I'm trying to work with John and Tony to make that happen. MS is really a community-built and community-supported product. I don't expect it to compete in the "plug and play" market because of that. I WOULD like to see OUR community customize and "package" the unit to where it does, which is really not difficult to accomplish at all.
There's a lot of things the MS can do, and a lot of things it COULD do. The COULD list is limited only by the community, which is a huge strength. With the BS3/FAST/AEM/etc. you're at the mercy of the vendor, but you also generally get a product more targeted directly to what you're doing. There's benefits to each, there's detriments to each.
Kurt, John: I'd love nothing more than to put a fully built and configured MegaSquirt in your hands to evaluate. I think it would at least give you an appreciation for the fact a "cheap" unit can provide such a large amount of stability, ease of use, and performance.
10-21-2005, 09:55 AM
#32
9 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Andrews, Texas
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOW.... you guys are making my head hurt. sooooo... i guess i'll ask again, which setup would everyone go w/ if they were in my shoes? the FAST system i'm looking at has already been setup on a LT1 and tuned on a LT1 and the guy installing it knows how to set it up on my car. the MS sounds much funner since i can learn with it, but don't have anyone locally to help me with it. I can only think of one person locally that is running the BS3, but he's a die hard ford guy and i think we'd clash pretty bad. just looking for what everyone would do in my shoes.
sooooo... i guess i'll ask again, which setup would everyone go w/ if they were in my shoes? the FAST system i'm looking at has already been setup on a LT1 and tuned on a LT1 and the guy installing it knows how to set it up on my car. the MS sounds much funner since i can learn with it, but don't have anyone locally to help me with it. I can only think of one person locally that is running the BS3, but he's a die hard ford guy and i think we'd clash pretty bad. just looking for what everyone would do in my shoes.
10-21-2005, 10:04 AM
#33
Launching!
Originally Posted by Brains
I have a vendor wanting to come on board selling MegaSquirt kits, right now. I'm trying to work with John and Tony to make that happen. MS is really a community-built and community-supported product. I don't expect it to compete in the "plug and play" market because of that. I WOULD like to see OUR community customize and "package" the unit to where it does, which is really not difficult to accomplish at all.
I'm a long time professional software developer and CTO. I definitely understand the passion that drives community-based projects, but there is usually a bias toward flexibility and ultimate capability, over simplicity and out-of-the-box usability. Plug-and-play is a capability, too.
10-21-2005, 10:14 AM
#34
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ultimately YOU have to make the decision, but lets try to bullet-point each solution. I don't know as much about the FAST or BS3 systems, so other folks please add in that info.
MegaSquirt:
Build it yourself, or buy prebuilt for a few bucks more.
Build your own wiring harness, or splice into your factory harness
VERY easy for a beginner to tune quickly
Not weatherproof, unit must be mounted inside car
2nd unit required to control automatic transmission, again need to build your own harness.
Dash cluster not controlled by MS, if you want to keep factory gauges might need to retain factory PCM.
Bank-to-bank injector firing, or batch fire staged injection modes
Ignition control will work with optispark, or you can convert to EDIS for coil per cyl.
Boost control
Nitrous control, multi stage
PWM or stepper idle air motor control
FAST XFI:
Built-in wideband controller
Sequential injection
Individual cylinder correction
Boost control
Multiple calibration support, switchable on the fly
BigStuff3 (info from 427):
Direct plug and play with high quality sealed harness.(this assumes factory map sensor is being used, we change the plug here for 2/3 bar map on customer request)
Direct stand alone ability with individual cylinder control timing/fuel
Will not run factory dash.
Not watertight.
Will interface with "Racepak" dash to give live moniter of all function to driver w/o laptop.(OPTION)
Dual wideband (OPTION)
Full trans control, no additional boxes needed. Plug and play(OPTION)
Internal data logging w/o laptop. (OPTION)
MegaSquirt:
Build it yourself, or buy prebuilt for a few bucks more.
Build your own wiring harness, or splice into your factory harness
VERY easy for a beginner to tune quickly
Not weatherproof, unit must be mounted inside car
2nd unit required to control automatic transmission, again need to build your own harness.
Dash cluster not controlled by MS, if you want to keep factory gauges might need to retain factory PCM.
Bank-to-bank injector firing, or batch fire staged injection modes
Ignition control will work with optispark, or you can convert to EDIS for coil per cyl.
Boost control
Nitrous control, multi stage
PWM or stepper idle air motor control
FAST XFI:
Built-in wideband controller
Sequential injection
Individual cylinder correction
Boost control
Multiple calibration support, switchable on the fly
BigStuff3 (info from 427):
Direct plug and play with high quality sealed harness.(this assumes factory map sensor is being used, we change the plug here for 2/3 bar map on customer request)
Direct stand alone ability with individual cylinder control timing/fuel
Will not run factory dash.
Not watertight.
Will interface with "Racepak" dash to give live moniter of all function to driver w/o laptop.(OPTION)
Dual wideband (OPTION)
Full trans control, no additional boxes needed. Plug and play(OPTION)
Internal data logging w/o laptop. (OPTION)
Last edited by Brains; 10-21-2005 at 01:47 PM.
10-21-2005, 10:23 AM
#35
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 71CamaroLS1
The plug-and-play aspect gets to the heart of this discussion. I have a BS3 in my project. We plugged it in, following the directions and pictures in the manual, cut the power and ground leads to length and attached them to the battery, cranked the engine and it fired right up, using the pre-programmed settings.
I'm a long time professional software developer and CTO. I definitely understand the passion that drives community-based projects, but there is usually a bias toward flexibility and ultimate capability, over simplicity and out-of-the-box usability. Plug-and-play is a capability, too.
I'm a long time professional software developer and CTO. I definitely understand the passion that drives community-based projects, but there is usually a bias toward flexibility and ultimate capability, over simplicity and out-of-the-box usability. Plug-and-play is a capability, too.
1. +12V ignition
2. Ground
3. Fuel injectors, bank 1
4. Fuel injectors, bank 2
5. Throttle position sensor
6. Engine coolant temp sensor
7. Intake air temp sensor
8. Wideband O2 sensor
9. Vacuum line to onboard MAP sensor
The install took mere minutes after the harness was built, and it was/is plug and play. Switching back to the stock PCM can be done in about 45 seconds since the stock harness was not cut at all. It fired and idled immediately on the first twist of the key. Tuning part throttle and up to low boost (part throttle boost) took about 20 minutes on the street. The biggest downfall is the car is still using the factory PCM for spark, which means stopping the car to reflash spark. The fuel can be tuned in real time without stopping.
10-21-2005, 11:09 AM
#36
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 71CamaroLS1
The plug-and-play aspect gets to the heart of this discussion. I have a BS3 in my project. We plugged it in, following the directions and pictures in the manual, cut the power and ground leads to length and attached them to the battery, cranked the engine and it fired right up, using the pre-programmed settings. We spent far more time plumbing the fuel system than installing the ECU. 90 minutes of time on a DynoJet was enough to dial in pretty much all of the fuel and spark maps, using the BS3 software which worked perfectly for me. When I had a question on the software, John Meany emailed me a response in less than 15 minutes. The time I didn't spend piecing together a custom EFI setup is time I am now spending on the dozen other major things the car needs done.
I'm a long time professional software developer and CTO. I definitely understand the passion that drives community-based projects, but there is usually a bias toward flexibility and ultimate capability, over simplicity and out-of-the-box usability. Plug-and-play is a capability, too.
I'm a long time professional software developer and CTO. I definitely understand the passion that drives community-based projects, but there is usually a bias toward flexibility and ultimate capability, over simplicity and out-of-the-box usability. Plug-and-play is a capability, too.
I don't think this experience is the normal one for a standalone EMS installation... congrats on it being so easy, but I've done around 10 non-megasquirt installations in the last year, and each was for an owner who'd already purchased a system that was advertised as "plug & play." but found themselves over their head in short order. And found themselves hanging with little or no ability to get technical support form the manufacturers. Your experience with BS3 does not mirror what I've read *on this very board* about others trying to get technical answers from them.
IF you're a CTO (I'm also an I/T exec), then you are familiar with the Linux versus Windows debate over the past 5-7 years. In my eyes, MS versus "the big dogs" is the *exact* same dilemna. THe little guy is marred by the marketing tactics of the big dogs, such that a prospecting user of that technology can't sift through the hype and BS to get to the facts of what will or won't work best for his/her application.
Kurt, no hard feelings, because again - if I were you I'd have the same thoughts on EMS. But I am not a commercial EMS installer, I'm a hobbyist. I've had major success with Megasquirt on all the major engines that people are modifying today, import and domestic. The last remaining thing I want to conquer is LS1 spark control on the MS and I will admit, after our posts yesterday, I went straight to my electronics guru and we p-spice'd a model of a control module, based on Brains' suggestions, for a $19 add-on device to MS that gives SEQUENTIAL spark control of LS1 coilpacks. It should also be usable on many, if not all , COPs, and I am testing this early next week on Parish's truck. Thanks for the motivation, and I apologize for getting too passionate for you,
-scott
10-21-2005, 12:23 PM
#37
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
I'm not sure what class I would run. Probably be a gen3, not much chance of turbocharged(bummer) with my coming year obligations and lack of funds.
The car that might go would be our Powertour car, it is a 72 Nova with no real good looks but enough power to keep it fun.
I did my driving test this year to get my land speed "A"(200-249mph) liscence and set a record at 204mph at Maxton this year. I would like to upgrade to a AA for over 250mph this year at Bonneville. I was originally planning on attempting 300mph with a gen3 turbo on gasoline, but a death at Bonneville this year made me think that working slowly up to that goal would be better.
Kurt
The car that might go would be our Powertour car, it is a 72 Nova with no real good looks but enough power to keep it fun.
I did my driving test this year to get my land speed "A"(200-249mph) liscence and set a record at 204mph at Maxton this year. I would like to upgrade to a AA for over 250mph this year at Bonneville. I was originally planning on attempting 300mph with a gen3 turbo on gasoline, but a death at Bonneville this year made me think that working slowly up to that goal would be better.
Kurt
Originally Posted by parish8
what car/class are you doing. i need to stay out of that class if i want to win
10-21-2005, 12:34 PM
#38
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
Well I look at it like this:
Plug'n Play
1) BS3
2) TSI
4) FAST
3) MS
-BS3 does not require custom harness, FAST does. MS does not control spark.
Cheapest solution:
1) MS ($300 + $500 for EFI or HPT)
2) TSI ($1000)
2) BS3 ($2000)
3) FAST ($2000 + major custom wiring cost)
I think the FAST costs the most if you need to buy a custom harness from Mac. I could be wrong, please correct.
Plug'n Play
1) BS3
2) TSI
4) FAST
3) MS
-BS3 does not require custom harness, FAST does. MS does not control spark.
Cheapest solution:
1) MS ($300 + $500 for EFI or HPT)
2) TSI ($1000)
2) BS3 ($2000)
3) FAST ($2000 + major custom wiring cost)
I think the FAST costs the most if you need to buy a custom harness from Mac. I could be wrong, please correct.
10-21-2005, 12:37 PM
#39
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 12,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually John, MS does control spark - just not sequential coil-per-cylinder. You have to run it in a waste-spark mode in some arrangement (EDIS or other). With a distributor car you just hook it up and go, however.
All that is about to change, I got my dev board last night from Digikey and can put my code to work -- this will be a simple add-on to the MS to make it plug-and-play with the LS1 coil packs.
All that is about to change, I got my dev board last night from Digikey and can put my code to work -- this will be a simple add-on to the MS to make it plug-and-play with the LS1 coil packs.
10-21-2005, 01:08 PM
#40
hmm.
aftermarket harness..
aftermarket controllers..
all that seems rather unnecessary.... IF someone could write a nice, fully optioned OS for the GM PCM... its powerful, it has plenty of memory, of course it has the needed I/O hardware...and since it really is just a computer, it can be programmed to be easy to tune, flexible or whatever..
would be nice if someone was working on that... you know, just plug it in, flash the new BIN... then start tuning... you could even write in a on-the-fly editing setup similar to MSs....
aftermarket harness..
aftermarket controllers..
all that seems rather unnecessary.... IF someone could write a nice, fully optioned OS for the GM PCM... its powerful, it has plenty of memory, of course it has the needed I/O hardware...and since it really is just a computer, it can be programmed to be easy to tune, flexible or whatever..
would be nice if someone was working on that... you know, just plug it in, flash the new BIN... then start tuning... you could even write in a on-the-fly editing setup similar to MSs....