Filling these cells is hard !
11-02-2005, 07:22 PM
#22
I was thinking about the hill thing on the way home tonight. Seems like it would be great going up the hill, but then I would need to turn around and go back down, which for a car geared with 4.30's wouldn't take very long.
I used to live in Bakersfield Ca, the hill going up over the mountains to LA would be perfect - 2 mile climb from 500 ft to 5000 ft, almost straight up !
I plan to give it a try this weekend
I used to live in Bakersfield Ca, the hill going up over the mountains to LA would be perfect - 2 mile climb from 500 ft to 5000 ft, almost straight up !
I plan to give it a try this weekend
11-02-2005, 07:42 PM
#23
Originally Posted by TRex
I was thinking about the hill thing on the way home tonight. Seems like it would be great going up the hill, but then I would need to turn around and go back down, which for a car geared with 4.30's wouldn't take very long.
I used to live in Bakersfield Ca, the hill going up over the mountains to LA would be perfect - 2 mile climb from 500 ft to 5000 ft, almost straight up !
I plan to give it a try this weekend
I used to live in Bakersfield Ca, the hill going up over the mountains to LA would be perfect - 2 mile climb from 500 ft to 5000 ft, almost straight up !
I plan to give it a try this weekend
You can hit some very low-load (low kPa) cells going down hills with light throttle. With braking you can slowly increase the load. Works great.
Good Luck! Let us know how it goes for you.
11-03-2005, 09:48 PM
#29
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
Okay...try this method:
1. Set the OLFA table to 1.0 across the entire board.
2. Set PE to whatever you want to shoot for as your final AFR across the entire RPM range. Make sure the PE entry values are what you want as well (I have mine kick in around 35% TPS or so).
3. Set PE enrichment rate to 4.00 (so it comes on instantly).
4. Put your car into open loop, and make sure the MAF is disabled. Easy way to disable the MAF: Set the fail freq. to 0, AND 0 out the entire MAF table. It'll send it into SD mode in a hurry, so there will be no guessing whether or not your MAF is having any input on your tune at the time.
5. Do the standard AFR % Error histogram until you get your VE table in line. Smooth it, but make sure you are only smoothing the cells that are being hit regularly. You don't want your data skewed by some of the outlying VE table values.
If you don't want to use the MAF, just re-enable closed loop operation.
If you want to use the MAF, leave it in open loop, but re-enable the MAF by resetting the fail freq. to the factory value, and put in the MAF table of your choice. Then make yourself a nice MAF % error histogram, and do some more runs. This will bring it back in line with the VE table so they aren't conflicting with each other.
Then you can re-enable closed loop and be on your way.
What this does for you:
1. It keeps you from wasting an extraordinary amount of gas by setting your entire OLFA table to 1.0 instead of the really rich 1.13 (well, not really rich, but for cruising, it is overkill).
2. It gives you a more real world tune since PE will be enabling when it normally would be during normal driving conditions.
1. Set the OLFA table to 1.0 across the entire board.
2. Set PE to whatever you want to shoot for as your final AFR across the entire RPM range. Make sure the PE entry values are what you want as well (I have mine kick in around 35% TPS or so).
3. Set PE enrichment rate to 4.00 (so it comes on instantly).
4. Put your car into open loop, and make sure the MAF is disabled. Easy way to disable the MAF: Set the fail freq. to 0, AND 0 out the entire MAF table. It'll send it into SD mode in a hurry, so there will be no guessing whether or not your MAF is having any input on your tune at the time.
5. Do the standard AFR % Error histogram until you get your VE table in line. Smooth it, but make sure you are only smoothing the cells that are being hit regularly. You don't want your data skewed by some of the outlying VE table values.
If you don't want to use the MAF, just re-enable closed loop operation.
If you want to use the MAF, leave it in open loop, but re-enable the MAF by resetting the fail freq. to the factory value, and put in the MAF table of your choice. Then make yourself a nice MAF % error histogram, and do some more runs. This will bring it back in line with the VE table so they aren't conflicting with each other.
Then you can re-enable closed loop and be on your way.
What this does for you:
1. It keeps you from wasting an extraordinary amount of gas by setting your entire OLFA table to 1.0 instead of the really rich 1.13 (well, not really rich, but for cruising, it is overkill).
2. It gives you a more real world tune since PE will be enabling when it normally would be during normal driving conditions.
something to add to this....
not many people do this because they dont understand how the car works in open loop.
you must tune the OLFA tabel when you are done...
my table ended up being richer at176 and below, being 1 at 194 and being rich again at 212 and above
If you watch your fueling from a cold start you will see them being way lean until you get up to full operating temperature and above it you need more fuel as well....
by setting the whole table to 1 to begin with you can tune that whoe temp region and it will for the most part transfer across evenly to the map portions in teh other cells...
look at my 3 pics below...
1 is the 1.0 table
2 is the recalibrated table
3 is how i got there...
I'm working on a write up of how to do this...
basically you need to be able to get to where you can hit cruise control with the fans on,heater on high to slow down the heat up process....
cruise control cause it will guarantee not a whole lot of fueling changes and will usually keep you out of PE.. and it usually guarantees you are staing in the same RPM..so your "tuned in cells" are being looked at for every temp range and it becomes a "somewhat controlled constant"
I have not been able to do anything below 68 yet on my table cause It hasnt been that cold yet since I have gotten done.
it is also important that you use a constant for your AFR error because telling it to look at commanded will not work cause the commanded will be always changing with temperature as you adjust these tables to get it correct...
so by telling it you want stoich...you have anothet constant variable that you have to work with.
if you tune the whoel temp row to 1.0...then it transfers across teh same in theory when you change temperatures....
11-04-2005, 07:16 AM
#30
Hmmmmmmmm...I'm still trying to grasp what you are trying to do. My OLFA table looks kinda similar, only I set it so that it starts up rich (1.13), and leans out to 1.0 by the 170-190 point. I'm guessing you are setting up the OLFA table to get a stoich value even on startup, and maintain that by doing the calculations yourself, since you can't just say "give me 1.0 from startup until operating temps" since there are some funky back calculations. Is that even remotely close to what you are doing?
I thought being a little rich on startup helped get up to operating temps a little faster...maybe that's not the case?
Are you just trying to conserve as much fuel as possible?
I thought being a little rich on startup helped get up to operating temps a little faster...maybe that's not the case?
Are you just trying to conserve as much fuel as possible?
11-04-2005, 07:20 AM
#31
Oh, and when I set everything to 1.0 across the board, the car is already warmed up. I only tune it when I'm at operating temps, since that is where the car will spend the majority of its time. I think I forgot to mention that, and may be a source of confusion. Since I'm already in open loop, I leave PE enabled with the transitions I use in my final tune so that when I'm tuning the VE table, those PE transitions are reflected in as "real world" of terms as they can possibly be. I think that's all I was trying to get at...I try to tune it like I drive it.
11-04-2005, 08:00 AM
#32
part of the reason behind the OLFA table is because at colder temperatures teh engine burns fuel differently...and at cooler temperatures...while it may be commanding 1.13...its not really seeing 13:1ish at the wideband...its seeing way leaner....
by tuning in the OLFA table you guarantee that you have proper fueling at all
Engine Operating temperatures....
you also have to go thru and do the PE adder vs ECT if your car has that table
tune your car in at full operating temperature.....
then go out the next day and log from a cold start...
use the OLFA table and AFR.....and se how lean you are at cold startup with the table at 1.0...
it will be quite suprising.
teh idea here is that you are supposed to be tuning your entire vehicle....not just tuning 1 spot of the vehicle...
these tables become extremely important when you start to add Forced induction..especially if its a daily driver and sometimes teh person has to leave for work in the morning without allowing a proper warm up because they overslept.....
Forced Induction with an overly lean fuel mixture spells BROKEN MOTOR...
by tuning in the OLFA table you guarantee that you have proper fueling at all
Engine Operating temperatures....
you also have to go thru and do the PE adder vs ECT if your car has that table
tune your car in at full operating temperature.....
then go out the next day and log from a cold start...
use the OLFA table and AFR.....and se how lean you are at cold startup with the table at 1.0...
it will be quite suprising.
teh idea here is that you are supposed to be tuning your entire vehicle....not just tuning 1 spot of the vehicle...
these tables become extremely important when you start to add Forced induction..especially if its a daily driver and sometimes teh person has to leave for work in the morning without allowing a proper warm up because they overslept.....
Forced Induction with an overly lean fuel mixture spells BROKEN MOTOR...
11-04-2005, 08:07 AM
#33
Originally Posted by soundengineer
part of the reason behind the OLFA table is because at colder temperatures teh engine burns fuel differently...and at cooler temperatures...while it may be commanding 1.13...its not really seeing 13:1ish at the wideband...its seeing way leaner....
by tuning in the OLFA table you guarantee that you have proper fueling at all
Engine Operating temperatures....
you also have to go thru and do the PE adder vs ECT if your car has that table
tune your car in at full operating temperature.....
then go out the next day and log from a cold start...
use the OLFA table and AFR.....and se how lean you are at cold startup with the table at 1.0...
it will be quite suprising.
teh idea here is that you are supposed to be tuning your entire vehicle....not just tuning 1 spot of the vehicle...
these tables become extremely important when you start to add Forced induction..especially if its a daily driver and sometimes teh person has to leave for work in the morning without allowing a proper warm up because they overslept.....
Forced Induction with an overly lean fuel mixture spells BROKEN MOTOR...
by tuning in the OLFA table you guarantee that you have proper fueling at all
Engine Operating temperatures....
you also have to go thru and do the PE adder vs ECT if your car has that table
tune your car in at full operating temperature.....
then go out the next day and log from a cold start...
use the OLFA table and AFR.....and se how lean you are at cold startup with the table at 1.0...
it will be quite suprising.
teh idea here is that you are supposed to be tuning your entire vehicle....not just tuning 1 spot of the vehicle...
these tables become extremely important when you start to add Forced induction..especially if its a daily driver and sometimes teh person has to leave for work in the morning without allowing a proper warm up because they overslept.....
Forced Induction with an overly lean fuel mixture spells BROKEN MOTOR...
11-04-2005, 11:35 AM
#34
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SE I am gonna have to disagree for a few reasons.
Have you tried commanding a steady timing value from a cold start to warm up? If you havent are you aware timing will affect how your WB sees the fueling. Take a look at the spark ect table. The pcm is pull at least 4* of timing from a dead cold start till about 149* F. The reason this makes a difference is because the reduced timing is allowing unburnt oxygenated gases into the exhaust stream when the exhaust valuve cracks open. To your WB this o2 is read as being a lean condition even though it really isnt lean at all. I hve seen this at least 2 times in the past while tuning
Situation 1 My car
With no changes made in fueling AT ALL I pulled 2* of timing from the HO table and the car read 4% LEANER. Put the 2* back 5 minutes later and everything fell back into line.
Situation 2
A guy called me while trying to dyno a STS turbo car. He kept making pulls and the more pulls he made the leaner the WB read. After every pull he added more and more fuel to the car to compesate but it didnt make anymore power and it didnt richen the car up at all. Over 15% more fuel was added to no avail. I loooked at his logs and saw the IAT temps were in excess of 130*. Well the spark IAT table also pulls timing for excessively hot temps. I told him to 0 out that table for the pulls and put a fan at the back to cool the turbo and re-dyno. The next pull when the pcm wasnt pulling timing for the IAT's all the fuel he added mysteriously came back and the car was able to be dynoed and no more false lean conditions because of the computer fooling around with spark.
Check your timing vales and lock them in at a set value with an OLFA table of 1 and see if your results change the next time you log the car from a dead cold
Have you tried commanding a steady timing value from a cold start to warm up? If you havent are you aware timing will affect how your WB sees the fueling. Take a look at the spark ect table. The pcm is pull at least 4* of timing from a dead cold start till about 149* F. The reason this makes a difference is because the reduced timing is allowing unburnt oxygenated gases into the exhaust stream when the exhaust valuve cracks open. To your WB this o2 is read as being a lean condition even though it really isnt lean at all. I hve seen this at least 2 times in the past while tuning
Situation 1 My car
With no changes made in fueling AT ALL I pulled 2* of timing from the HO table and the car read 4% LEANER. Put the 2* back 5 minutes later and everything fell back into line.
Situation 2
A guy called me while trying to dyno a STS turbo car. He kept making pulls and the more pulls he made the leaner the WB read. After every pull he added more and more fuel to the car to compesate but it didnt make anymore power and it didnt richen the car up at all. Over 15% more fuel was added to no avail. I loooked at his logs and saw the IAT temps were in excess of 130*. Well the spark IAT table also pulls timing for excessively hot temps. I told him to 0 out that table for the pulls and put a fan at the back to cool the turbo and re-dyno. The next pull when the pcm wasnt pulling timing for the IAT's all the fuel he added mysteriously came back and the car was able to be dynoed and no more false lean conditions because of the computer fooling around with spark.
Check your timing vales and lock them in at a set value with an OLFA table of 1 and see if your results change the next time you log the car from a dead cold
11-04-2005, 12:54 PM
#36
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Here is a log of the car warming up with a rock solid 28* of timing. The car didn like it and surged really bad during the warm up. None the less the values at 68* and 86* I attributed it to the WB warming up nevermind the AFR Error take note of how CLOSE the AFR error stayed while the car warmed up. I have a high capacity radiator and even with the fans turned off the car really doesnt get above 180* so i couldnt go to much further without sitting there for the rest of the night
These are one of the reason everyone always said to start logging when the car is at full temp.
These are one of the reason everyone always said to start logging when the car is at full temp.
11-04-2005, 08:11 PM
#37
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Here is a log of the car warming up with a rock solid 28* of timing. The car didn like it and surged really bad during the warm up.
I have thought about that and decided that a car bucking means the timing is not correct...
tried it once to see what would happen cause I saw the table that had some spark removed and wonered what would happen IF I zero'd it
had the same surging results..decided that I didnt want to screw with that table and didnt check AFR when I did it.but I do understand that pulling spark makes the wideband see leaner
did you also know that people are adding spark to the stock table and in my 2002 OS there is a table that adds spark based on AFR Multiplier.....
and I would see that as a better place to add instead of adding a generic amount to the whole table...It can also be used to pull timing at any given AFR..so you coul deffectively pull timing there as well if you needed to...its RPM and commanded AFR based
this sound lik eyou and I should get to gether and try to find a better solution for all of this as I like the way your mind works and I can see some good potential from a collaboration of minds on finding newer and possibly better ways to make these LS1's rock solid in open loop as well as closed loop
11-04-2005, 08:16 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by soundengineer
I
did you also know that people are adding spark to the stock table and in my 2002 OS there is a table that adds spark based on AFR Multiplier.....
did you also know that people are adding spark to the stock table and in my 2002 OS there is a table that adds spark based on AFR Multiplier.....
11-04-2005, 08:27 PM
#39
In My 2002 V8 Fbody OS...
mine is blank right now as I have not had any time to play with it on my car...havent had any real free time inbetween sound gigs and 2 month old baby
hell..I'm working a show as we speak..LOL
mine is blank right now as I have not had any time to play with it on my car...havent had any real free time inbetween sound gigs and 2 month old baby
hell..I'm working a show as we speak..LOL
Last edited by soundengineer; 11-04-2005 at 08:34 PM.
11-04-2005, 08:36 PM
#40
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I found it for the EFILive people that are intrested its table B5908. My take on it is i dialed my car in a full operating temp and the car at 40 shouldnt consume to much more air at 176 so if you eliminate timing from the mix i think the table would need minor tweaking....
