EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit?
01-02-2002, 04:52 AM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Changes are not permanent, anything that is altered by EFIlive V5 automatically reverts to calibration defaults 5 seconds after EFIlive V5 stops "commanding" the PCM/ECM.
The spark and fuel tables that are displayed by the current EFIlive V5 program (and that will be modifiable in the next release) are not based on particular tables that are calibrated into the ECM/PCM.
The maps initiallay start out empty and are "filled in" as the engine parameters change. I.e. as the rpm and maf change, the spark advance and afr values are recorded and plugged into the display. With an accurate dyno the tuner can command the engine through all possible/resonable rpm and maf/map combinations to build a complete spark or fuel map.
The adjustable spark/fuel map feature will allow the tuner to command exact spark/fuel settings based on other engine parameters.
Say for example you thought that your engine was leaning out at a particular rpm/maf setting. You would set the fuel table to be based on RPM and MAF, then you alter the desired fuel for the specific RPM/MAF combinations and the ECM will ignore ALL internal tables and calculations and drive the injectors to supply the commanded fuel settings.
The same can be done with spark. Both fuel and spark can be commanded based on any two other engine parameters.
This feature is not a way to re-program the base spark and fuel tables directly. It's just a way for you to quickly and easily determine if changing the spark or fuel at a particular rpm or MAF or MAP will make any difference.
Ideally one would have the vehicle sitting on a dyno so that precises rpm and maf or map settings can be easily "dialled in". The dyno should be able to hold the rpm at a preset value and the tuner would change the throttle to obtain different maf/map readings. At each map/maf setting the fuel/spark can be increased/decreased and the torque delta can be measured by the dyno.
Once you have determined what the ideal fuel and or spark settings are for each rpm and maf/map combinations you can use other editing tools to change the base maps (with what you learned using EFIlive V5) in the flash memory and then re-flash your ECM/PCM.
If you know enough about the spark and fuel tables and what the format of the maps are then you can mirror the map layout in EFIlive V5 so that it matches a particular map in the calibration, which makes transferring the data considerably easier.
Don't forget though, that at WOT and full load, you can quickly turn your pride and joy into a bunch of melted pistons if you command too lean an afr for too long. EFIlive V5 does have safeguards built in but damage can occurr if care is not taken.
Regards
Paul
The spark and fuel tables that are displayed by the current EFIlive V5 program (and that will be modifiable in the next release) are not based on particular tables that are calibrated into the ECM/PCM.
The maps initiallay start out empty and are "filled in" as the engine parameters change. I.e. as the rpm and maf change, the spark advance and afr values are recorded and plugged into the display. With an accurate dyno the tuner can command the engine through all possible/resonable rpm and maf/map combinations to build a complete spark or fuel map.
The adjustable spark/fuel map feature will allow the tuner to command exact spark/fuel settings based on other engine parameters.
Say for example you thought that your engine was leaning out at a particular rpm/maf setting. You would set the fuel table to be based on RPM and MAF, then you alter the desired fuel for the specific RPM/MAF combinations and the ECM will ignore ALL internal tables and calculations and drive the injectors to supply the commanded fuel settings.
The same can be done with spark. Both fuel and spark can be commanded based on any two other engine parameters.
This feature is not a way to re-program the base spark and fuel tables directly. It's just a way for you to quickly and easily determine if changing the spark or fuel at a particular rpm or MAF or MAP will make any difference.
Ideally one would have the vehicle sitting on a dyno so that precises rpm and maf or map settings can be easily "dialled in". The dyno should be able to hold the rpm at a preset value and the tuner would change the throttle to obtain different maf/map readings. At each map/maf setting the fuel/spark can be increased/decreased and the torque delta can be measured by the dyno.
Once you have determined what the ideal fuel and or spark settings are for each rpm and maf/map combinations you can use other editing tools to change the base maps (with what you learned using EFIlive V5) in the flash memory and then re-flash your ECM/PCM.
If you know enough about the spark and fuel tables and what the format of the maps are then you can mirror the map layout in EFIlive V5 so that it matches a particular map in the calibration, which makes transferring the data considerably easier.
Don't forget though, that at WOT and full load, you can quickly turn your pride and joy into a bunch of melted pistons if you command too lean an afr for too long. EFIlive V5 does have safeguards built in but damage can occurr if care is not taken.
Regards
Paul
01-03-2002, 11:28 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Paul-
Thanks for jumping on and giving us a little more detailed info about your product. It cleared up a bunch of questions I had. So it appears that EFILive would be used to collect data and test many quick temporary changes and then a PCM editing program such as LS1 edit would be used to make the changes stick.
I would like to see a distributor offer these two programs together in a reduced rate package eventualy <HINT HINT> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
Matt
Thanks for jumping on and giving us a little more detailed info about your product. It cleared up a bunch of questions I had. So it appears that EFILive would be used to collect data and test many quick temporary changes and then a PCM editing program such as LS1 edit would be used to make the changes stick.
I would like to see a distributor offer these two programs together in a reduced rate package eventualy <HINT HINT> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
Matt
01-21-2002, 04:38 AM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Y-man, we have plans for EFIlive V5 along the lines you are suggesting. Integrated scan-tool, tuning and re-flashing/programming.
A bit of good news just in, you wanted a reduced rate, how's this for starters:
EFIlive V5 is now only $195.00
Check out www.starrperformance.com.au
Regards
Paul
A bit of good news just in, you wanted a reduced rate, how's this for starters:
EFIlive V5 is now only $195.00
Check out www.starrperformance.com.au
Regards
Paul
01-21-2002, 07:40 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Paul-
Would it be the same deal for the later versions of software with the PCM flash capability, the software is free to download, it uses the same connector that you'd purchase now?
Matt
P.S. Just printed out the order form to send in. What credit cards do you take (visa,MC,Discover)?
Would it be the same deal for the later versions of software with the PCM flash capability, the software is free to download, it uses the same connector that you'd purchase now?
Matt
P.S. Just printed out the order form to send in. What credit cards do you take (visa,MC,Discover)?
01-21-2002, 11:06 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Paul-
Do you have any samples of logged data to play around on the software with? I thought that was what the EFIliveV5Data.zip file was, but it just looks like it's the carbon fiber gauges.
Matt
Do you have any samples of logged data to play around on the software with? I thought that was what the EFIliveV5Data.zip file was, but it just looks like it's the carbon fiber gauges.
Matt
01-22-2002, 05:52 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? I'm just finding out about the credit cards now - I'll get back to you on that.
The sample data files will be posted shortly.
We are currently collecting a set of sample data files that shows the difference when sensors are good and when they are bad. And explanations of how to interpret the charts - what to look for etc.
The sample data files will be posted shortly.
We are currently collecting a set of sample data files that shows the difference when sensors are good and when they are bad. And explanations of how to interpret the charts - what to look for etc.
01-22-2002, 05:58 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? The modifying (on the fly) of spark and fuel values will work with the current hardware. I'm not sure if there will be a charge or not for the software upgrade. Hopefully not but I can't speak for Starr Performance - in the end they set the prices (I just help develop the software).
The re-flash capability will require new hardware and obviously a charge to cover the new hardware.
The re-flash capability will require new hardware and obviously a charge to cover the new hardware.
01-23-2002, 04:10 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Any well designed PCM scanner does "data fast packets" instead of sending a packet per function you want monitored, it requests several functions within one packet.
Sometimes though if the PCM is very busy this can cause packets getting missed, esp if the scanner is also requesting if there is any DTC info stored.
The Ease scanners allow you to turn off fast packets and also to turn off query of DTCs when you want to assure obtaining the most pps.
In any case the PCM has a single cpu, single thread process and 1 bus, thus it can be too busy and not have enough clock time to also service the volume of data requested by the scanner.
Of scanners I have tested, most fail due to a lousy protocol that does not mesh well with G.Ms.
Bi-directional is nothing new, the G.M Tech-II does it, its needed so a tech can turn a function on or off to test it, like turning off an injector and then see if RPMs change or not.
This feature is for test proposes and only allow one change at a time, thus if you tell the scanner to turn off 1 injector, if you then select another injector, the first one is turned back on.
This is a temp change ( a poke into memory) and as soon as the scanner is dropped from the link, all changes are gone.
Ease allows you to mix and match features.
they have versions that run on laptops, pocket P/C, or PDA ( I have all three)
They have generic OBD-II, enhanced to see all G.M did beyond what EPA required.
They all you to add features such as allow scanning chassie and body functions, do bi-directional, the pro version works on several car makers.
Also they have features for "through the air" capturing, black box, instead of a computer hooked to PCM, the box has LEDS you see, it records and then you upload the recordings to a desktop P/C to analyze or replay.
You can buy one version and later upgrade or add more features to what Ease version you have now.
After using the crappy autotap, you'll find the Ease G.M enhanced powertrain scanner a much better PCM scan tool.
Ease is one of the very few that also sell G.M SPS flash tool, it is what G.M uses to replace or update customer's PCMs. It comes with a C.D of all G.M models and the flashes for each.
This is not for custom programming, but for replacing stock flash.
So that's the difference with a vendor soley into the PCM scan tool market, lot of features and options.
John
Sometimes though if the PCM is very busy this can cause packets getting missed, esp if the scanner is also requesting if there is any DTC info stored.
The Ease scanners allow you to turn off fast packets and also to turn off query of DTCs when you want to assure obtaining the most pps.
In any case the PCM has a single cpu, single thread process and 1 bus, thus it can be too busy and not have enough clock time to also service the volume of data requested by the scanner.
Of scanners I have tested, most fail due to a lousy protocol that does not mesh well with G.Ms.
Bi-directional is nothing new, the G.M Tech-II does it, its needed so a tech can turn a function on or off to test it, like turning off an injector and then see if RPMs change or not.
This feature is for test proposes and only allow one change at a time, thus if you tell the scanner to turn off 1 injector, if you then select another injector, the first one is turned back on.
This is a temp change ( a poke into memory) and as soon as the scanner is dropped from the link, all changes are gone.
Ease allows you to mix and match features.
they have versions that run on laptops, pocket P/C, or PDA ( I have all three)
They have generic OBD-II, enhanced to see all G.M did beyond what EPA required.
They all you to add features such as allow scanning chassie and body functions, do bi-directional, the pro version works on several car makers.
Also they have features for "through the air" capturing, black box, instead of a computer hooked to PCM, the box has LEDS you see, it records and then you upload the recordings to a desktop P/C to analyze or replay.
You can buy one version and later upgrade or add more features to what Ease version you have now.
After using the crappy autotap, you'll find the Ease G.M enhanced powertrain scanner a much better PCM scan tool.
Ease is one of the very few that also sell G.M SPS flash tool, it is what G.M uses to replace or update customer's PCMs. It comes with a C.D of all G.M models and the flashes for each.
This is not for custom programming, but for replacing stock flash.
So that's the difference with a vendor soley into the PCM scan tool market, lot of features and options.
John
01-23-2002, 05:34 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? [quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>
So that's the difference with a vendor soley into the PCM scan tool market, lot of features and options.
John</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's the difference in price as well. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Autotap may not be as powerfull, but it serves most of the people on these boards well enough for it's price. And with EFIlive's price, I think they'll be a great match for autotap. Isn't Ease like $650 and up? Maybe I'm thinking of one of the others. I'm sure it's a great product though - just maybe a bit overkill for most ECM lurkers.
<strong>
So that's the difference with a vendor soley into the PCM scan tool market, lot of features and options.
John</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's the difference in price as well. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Autotap may not be as powerfull, but it serves most of the people on these boards well enough for it's price. And with EFIlive's price, I think they'll be a great match for autotap. Isn't Ease like $650 and up? Maybe I'm thinking of one of the others. I'm sure it's a great product though - just maybe a bit overkill for most ECM lurkers.
01-23-2002, 06:59 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Ease versions start at just under $300 and its the top of the line Pro versions go at the price you speak of,
The G.M enhanced version is like $315.
There is a lot more use of a scanner once you lean to use them. Being the PCM calculates the delivered torque, thus you can compute the flywheel HP and max torque as close to what a chassie dyno would and saves you the costs of having to get on a dyno.
But being able to tune in the AFR is a big plus for those adding mods and want best performance tune and a decent scanner is your eyes into the powertrain to do that type of tuning.
John
[quote]Originally posted by 98blackSS:
<strong>
That's the difference in price as well. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Autotap may not be as powerfull, but it serves most of the people on these boards well enough for it's price. And with EFIlive's price, I think they'll be a great match for autotap. Isn't Ease like $650 and up? Maybe I'm thinking of one of the others. I'm sure it's a great product though - just maybe a bit overkill for most ECM lurkers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The G.M enhanced version is like $315.
There is a lot more use of a scanner once you lean to use them. Being the PCM calculates the delivered torque, thus you can compute the flywheel HP and max torque as close to what a chassie dyno would and saves you the costs of having to get on a dyno.
But being able to tune in the AFR is a big plus for those adding mods and want best performance tune and a decent scanner is your eyes into the powertrain to do that type of tuning.
John
[quote]Originally posted by 98blackSS:
<strong>
That's the difference in price as well. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Autotap may not be as powerfull, but it serves most of the people on these boards well enough for it's price. And with EFIlive's price, I think they'll be a great match for autotap. Isn't Ease like $650 and up? Maybe I'm thinking of one of the others. I'm sure it's a great product though - just maybe a bit overkill for most ECM lurkers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
01-23-2002, 08:24 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? I have a few questions on this subject...It seems to me that Autotap is the most popular scan tool used on these forums...If someone was to have EFILive or Ease would the online help from here be available???? Theres nothing worse than having a problem and not being able to figure it out or get help on it..Are all of these programs user friendly and explanatory???How is the customer service from Ease, EFILive, and Autotap??? Does anyone have a web page for Ease?? Id like to purchase one of these scan tools but If I come to a problem that I cant figure out or solve Id like to know that there is someone to help me with it..here or customer service...Im sure im not the only person with these concerns..TIA
-Dave
-Dave
01-23-2002, 09:41 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Dave,
I believe the Ease website is http://www.obd2.com/
If money were no object, I'd love to have the wireless.
I believe the Ease website is http://www.obd2.com/
If money were no object, I'd love to have the wireless.
01-23-2002, 11:10 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Ease is a well known tool, they make tools for G.M's use. They are on the SAE board for OBD-II thus they know what a scanner should do.
Smog stations now also use Ease for the new I/M 240 tests.
Many of us help each other on scan recording and e-mail recordings to help analyze.
You can e-mail me anytime for help, I use scanners everyday.
Autotap has a forum but if you check it many times either they never answer you at all or take weeks before they do.
Autotap window's version crashes and most are forced to use the DOS version whereas the Ease works in windows and with over 1,000 traces has not crashed or lost data on me yet.
With products coming out to allow you to change PCM code yourelf soon ( I start BETA testing one in about a week) you'll need a trusted scanner to know if your code changes are good or not.
If it will help anyone I can get you a 10% discount on any Ease product, as if you were a teammate, if its the PDA or laptop versions.
John
[quote]Originally posted by Psycho Dave:
<strong>I have a few questions on this subject...It seems to me that Autotap is the most popular scan tool used on these forums...If someone was to have EFILive or Ease would the online help from here be available???? Theres nothing worse than having a problem and not being able to figure it out or get help on it..Are all of these programs user friendly and explanatory???How is the customer service from Ease, EFILive, and Autotap??? Does anyone have a web page for Ease?? Id like to purchase one of these scan tools but If I come to a problem that I cant figure out or solve Id like to know that there is someone to help me with it..here or customer service...Im sure im not the only person with these concerns..TIA
-Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
Smog stations now also use Ease for the new I/M 240 tests.
Many of us help each other on scan recording and e-mail recordings to help analyze.
You can e-mail me anytime for help, I use scanners everyday.
Autotap has a forum but if you check it many times either they never answer you at all or take weeks before they do.
Autotap window's version crashes and most are forced to use the DOS version whereas the Ease works in windows and with over 1,000 traces has not crashed or lost data on me yet.
With products coming out to allow you to change PCM code yourelf soon ( I start BETA testing one in about a week) you'll need a trusted scanner to know if your code changes are good or not.
If it will help anyone I can get you a 10% discount on any Ease product, as if you were a teammate, if its the PDA or laptop versions.
John
[quote]Originally posted by Psycho Dave:
<strong>I have a few questions on this subject...It seems to me that Autotap is the most popular scan tool used on these forums...If someone was to have EFILive or Ease would the online help from here be available???? Theres nothing worse than having a problem and not being able to figure it out or get help on it..Are all of these programs user friendly and explanatory???How is the customer service from Ease, EFILive, and Autotap??? Does anyone have a web page for Ease?? Id like to purchase one of these scan tools but If I come to a problem that I cant figure out or solve Id like to know that there is someone to help me with it..here or customer service...Im sure im not the only person with these concerns..TIA
-Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
01-23-2002, 11:14 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? The wireless would be cool for when on a racetrack and powertrain is being scanned/recorded from the pit area or if you had a repair shop and had the customer go for a short test drive to see how the car is doing but recording from the shop or several wireless units in shop all going to one main base scanner.
John
[quote]Originally posted by OCD4V8:
<strong>Dave,
I believe the Ease website is http://www.obd2.com/
If money were no object, I'd love to have the wireless.</strong><hr></blockquote>
John
[quote]Originally posted by OCD4V8:
<strong>Dave,
I believe the Ease website is http://www.obd2.com/
If money were no object, I'd love to have the wireless.</strong><hr></blockquote>
01-24-2002, 01:11 PM
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Re: EFIlive V5 (OBD-II) another LS1 Edit? Hi Psycho Dave,
EFIlive offers email and phone support. Emails will be answered witin 24 hours - usually a lot faster than that. As one of the developers of EFIlive V5 I involve myself in the support process.
I feel so strongly about providing great after sales support that I include my own private email address (not at Starr Performance). This way I can "see" any issues being logged and respond quickly. Usually the probelem is solved with a single email.
As you can see we also monitor lists like this one (LS1TECH) to see if anyone is having trouble with the product - and help out.
Regards
Paul
[quote]Originally posted by Psycho Dave:
<strong>I have a few questions on this subject...It seems to me that Autotap is the most popular scan tool used on these forums...If someone was to have EFILive or Ease would the online help from here be available???? Theres nothing worse than having a problem and not being able to figure it out or get help on it..Are all of these programs user friendly and explanatory???How is the customer service from Ease, EFILive, and Autotap??? Does anyone have a web page for Ease?? Id like to purchase one of these scan tools but If I come to a problem that I cant figure out or solve Id like to know that there is someone to help me with it..here or customer service...Im sure im not the only person with these concerns..TIA
-Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: EFIliveV5 ]</p>
EFIlive offers email and phone support. Emails will be answered witin 24 hours - usually a lot faster than that. As one of the developers of EFIlive V5 I involve myself in the support process.
I feel so strongly about providing great after sales support that I include my own private email address (not at Starr Performance). This way I can "see" any issues being logged and respond quickly. Usually the probelem is solved with a single email.
As you can see we also monitor lists like this one (LS1TECH) to see if anyone is having trouble with the product - and help out.
Regards
Paul
[quote]Originally posted by Psycho Dave:
<strong>I have a few questions on this subject...It seems to me that Autotap is the most popular scan tool used on these forums...If someone was to have EFILive or Ease would the online help from here be available???? Theres nothing worse than having a problem and not being able to figure it out or get help on it..Are all of these programs user friendly and explanatory???How is the customer service from Ease, EFILive, and Autotap??? Does anyone have a web page for Ease?? Id like to purchase one of these scan tools but If I come to a problem that I cant figure out or solve Id like to know that there is someone to help me with it..here or customer service...Im sure im not the only person with these concerns..TIA
-Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: EFIliveV5 ]</p>
