$13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF
02-25-2003, 02:05 PM
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$13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF If I want to tune Ls1/Ls6 from 97-03 I need to pay $13,000??? WTF!!
What justifies this cost?? Is it ONLY b/c he is the only person on the market right now and can therefore charge whatever he wants?
I mean $3000 for just the '03 version!!! If you just paid that for the 01-02 version I would be pissed!! I can't believe the development of the '03 justifies that price, can it??? I mean GM must have general "tuning" maps that change somewhat over the years, but these prices seem to reflect monopoly pricing. Hmmm
damn we need more competition in here.
What justifies this cost?? Is it ONLY b/c he is the only person on the market right now and can therefore charge whatever he wants?
I mean $3000 for just the '03 version!!! If you just paid that for the 01-02 version I would be pissed!! I can't believe the development of the '03 justifies that price, can it??? I mean GM must have general "tuning" maps that change somewhat over the years, but these prices seem to reflect monopoly pricing. Hmmm
damn we need more competition in here.
02-25-2003, 02:12 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF You were probably looking at the pcm-unlocked version that can do any number of pcms. Or doing some heavy drugs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> . You should be seing a price of about $550 I believe for a single pcm license.
02-25-2003, 02:24 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF yup.. you were looking at the "shop" version. You can work on an unlimited number of cars with it. Hence it is cost prohibitive so that a small group of people can't buy it and basically cost a lot of business for the company. If it was cheap one person could buy it then charge $20 for usage and LS1edit would never sell another product in the area.
02-25-2003, 02:39 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF They are the only game in town, but for a tuning shop that is serious about their work, a $13k investment can pay back at a decent rate. That can be paid back in a matter of a few months (or less), and everything past that is $$ in your pocket.
If you think Carputing's pricing is expensive and wacky, try pricing out software like Oracle. "It's only software"...
If you can't afford it, don't play.
-Andrew
If you think Carputing's pricing is expensive and wacky, try pricing out software like Oracle. "It's only software"...
If you can't afford it, don't play.
-Andrew
02-25-2003, 02:59 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF Go back an re-read the pricing form. Total cost for puchasing 97-03 is $8500 after the $4500 discount for buying all the years in one shot.
Tim
Tim
02-25-2003, 04:21 PM
#6
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF You guys can't compare corporate software pricing to what ordinary people should pay for a product for personal use.
They are trying to get rich quick off the back of people who are desperate for a software solution. I can buy charging someone $550 for LS1-Edit. But, the jacked-up price to add a PCM license or get an upgrade is pure greed. And, there is no plan to give people bug fixes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> When you ask a question about that provision, you get the run-around … or just get ignored.
The corporate software and database you are quoting such high prices for are likely much better written. The only edge Carputing has is knowledge of the data transfer from PCM to PC and back. The interface is amateurish, there are no import/export functions between files and the code has been bugg for months. I paid for and got into what was called a beta and they cut my upgrade off at six months based on entry into the feature-starved, buggy version.
They only bother to scale it to a 640x480 screen resolution when many laptops are either 800x600 or 1024x768. That is because of the rudimentary skills that are required to create window and control resize routines are lacking. Here is an example that only took me a couple evenings to do:
http://www.blackls1ta.com/ls1_edit_shots.htm
http://www.blackls1ta.com/ls1_edit_dtc.htm
It could be better, I just took a first whack at it.
You can build an interface isolated from other code modules. I offered, without them divulging their top-secret code, to make their interface more user-friendly, resizable AND give them the code... one option as incentive ONLY being that I got upgrades at no cost. If I gave them the code methodology for nothing, that was fine. I requested that little return on my effort (free upgrades) and I got ignored.
Truth is, we who want to tune the PCM are stuck with Carputing for now because they are a monopoly.
But, being in the software business, I can tell you it is my opinion the way they handle sales of the software is a gouge.
It is the beginnings of a wonderful product. But, they are squandering the opportunity to make it into a truly stellar tool. If, or when, someone else ever takes the initiative to develop a like product the right way, they will be left in the dust. The lead developer could argue he is busy finding more tables to add to the product or whatever. That is good. But, minimal investment in someone actually experienced with developing real software could make it better for EVERYBODY... Carputing AND their customers.
There... I've wanted to say that for a long time. Whew! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I love what they brought to market... But, they have made some wrong, and greedy, turns.
Would I still have bought it? Yes. It’s the only game in town, if you want some control over your car’s PCM.
They are trying to get rich quick off the back of people who are desperate for a software solution. I can buy charging someone $550 for LS1-Edit. But, the jacked-up price to add a PCM license or get an upgrade is pure greed. And, there is no plan to give people bug fixes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> When you ask a question about that provision, you get the run-around … or just get ignored.
The corporate software and database you are quoting such high prices for are likely much better written. The only edge Carputing has is knowledge of the data transfer from PCM to PC and back. The interface is amateurish, there are no import/export functions between files and the code has been bugg for months. I paid for and got into what was called a beta and they cut my upgrade off at six months based on entry into the feature-starved, buggy version.
They only bother to scale it to a 640x480 screen resolution when many laptops are either 800x600 or 1024x768. That is because of the rudimentary skills that are required to create window and control resize routines are lacking. Here is an example that only took me a couple evenings to do:
http://www.blackls1ta.com/ls1_edit_shots.htm
http://www.blackls1ta.com/ls1_edit_dtc.htm
It could be better, I just took a first whack at it.
You can build an interface isolated from other code modules. I offered, without them divulging their top-secret code, to make their interface more user-friendly, resizable AND give them the code... one option as incentive ONLY being that I got upgrades at no cost. If I gave them the code methodology for nothing, that was fine. I requested that little return on my effort (free upgrades) and I got ignored.
Truth is, we who want to tune the PCM are stuck with Carputing for now because they are a monopoly.
But, being in the software business, I can tell you it is my opinion the way they handle sales of the software is a gouge.
It is the beginnings of a wonderful product. But, they are squandering the opportunity to make it into a truly stellar tool. If, or when, someone else ever takes the initiative to develop a like product the right way, they will be left in the dust. The lead developer could argue he is busy finding more tables to add to the product or whatever. That is good. But, minimal investment in someone actually experienced with developing real software could make it better for EVERYBODY... Carputing AND their customers.
There... I've wanted to say that for a long time. Whew! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I love what they brought to market... But, they have made some wrong, and greedy, turns.
Would I still have bought it? Yes. It’s the only game in town, if you want some control over your car’s PCM.
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02-26-2003, 09:45 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF Yeah.....they have buttons for everything. Looks like they just did a quick and dirty solution.
I'm a VB guy by the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I'm a VB guy by the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
02-26-2003, 10:04 PM
#9
Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF well, there are 2 choices.
1 buy it.
or 2, develop another method.
I know there is enough knowledge on this forum, that the second could be done, but for some reason, people are happy to buy the only available solution, and not work on building a better tool.
I mean, there is no real reason that the tuner, is not also a scan tool.
Ryan.
1 buy it.
or 2, develop another method.
I know there is enough knowledge on this forum, that the second could be done, but for some reason, people are happy to buy the only available solution, and not work on building a better tool.
I mean, there is no real reason that the tuner, is not also a scan tool.
Ryan.
02-27-2003, 01:10 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF Black LS1 T/A, I think you're a little harsh in your assessment.
1) True, the software isn't perfect, but can you name any software programs that are perfect?
2) Too expensive? That's relative. How many software programs do you encounter that are as empowering (and as powerful) as LS1 Edit? This program is allowing you to take the control of your car's pcm out of GM's hands. No small accomplishment.
3) I can only speak for myself, but product support has been nothing short of outstanding. I can give details if you like. I'm sorry your experience with Carputing hasn't been as good as mine, and I wonder why.
Regards
1) True, the software isn't perfect, but can you name any software programs that are perfect?
2) Too expensive? That's relative. How many software programs do you encounter that are as empowering (and as powerful) as LS1 Edit? This program is allowing you to take the control of your car's pcm out of GM's hands. No small accomplishment.
3) I can only speak for myself, but product support has been nothing short of outstanding. I can give details if you like. I'm sorry your experience with Carputing hasn't been as good as mine, and I wonder why.
Regards
02-27-2003, 05:33 PM
#11
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF I didn't say I've had a bad expereince with Carputing related to customer service when it came to them, say, replacing a defective cable or in the time it took them to get product to me.
I SAID, I don't like that they have cut me off from BUG FIXES or UPDATES on a product that looks NO DIFFERENT from when it was in Beta.
I SAID their jacking the price up for adding licenses is greedy. I SAID the interface is amateurish and hasn't changed since Beta.
If that's harsh, it's only true.
As for the price of a tune, they don't tune my car... they provide the tool to do it.
I don't pay $550 for products that are MUCH more usr friendly and feature rich. The ONLY thing sustaining the price and policy of LS1-Edit is the monopoly for a needed product. Period!
I SAID, I don't like that they have cut me off from BUG FIXES or UPDATES on a product that looks NO DIFFERENT from when it was in Beta.
I SAID their jacking the price up for adding licenses is greedy. I SAID the interface is amateurish and hasn't changed since Beta.
If that's harsh, it's only true.
As for the price of a tune, they don't tune my car... they provide the tool to do it.
I don't pay $550 for products that are MUCH more usr friendly and feature rich. The ONLY thing sustaining the price and policy of LS1-Edit is the monopoly for a needed product. Period!
02-27-2003, 09:42 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF I suggested that they offer an SDK so that software dudes (like me) can make a better interface and they can control the 'back end'. A small cottage industry could develop with creative ideas to improve the product. After all 99% of the time is spent massaging the data and 1% up/downloading. I do have to say though that I am happy with it. But I could be happier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
02-28-2003, 12:03 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF The reason I don't do one myself is I have no specific knowledge of how to extract and replace data in the tables and where they are.
If it wasn't so expensive, upgrade/bug fixes cut off and inferior in design, I still wouldn't bother. With the work developing such an application would take, it is better to pay for it being done than to build one unless (some reasons I can immediately think of):
1) The available product is inferior or has shortcomings in some way (features, interface, reliability, performance)
2) It is too expensive
3) Product support is lacking or unavailable
They are skating on thin ice.
I hope they improve in some areas and keep it viable or it will succumb to the first reasonable (effective/inexpensive) alternative that pops up.
If it wasn't so expensive, upgrade/bug fixes cut off and inferior in design, I still wouldn't bother. With the work developing such an application would take, it is better to pay for it being done than to build one unless (some reasons I can immediately think of):
1) The available product is inferior or has shortcomings in some way (features, interface, reliability, performance)
2) It is too expensive
3) Product support is lacking or unavailable
They are skating on thin ice.
I hope they improve in some areas and keep it viable or it will succumb to the first reasonable (effective/inexpensive) alternative that pops up.
02-28-2003, 12:19 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The ONLY thing sustaining the price and policy of LS1-Edit is the monopoly for a needed product. Period! [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup. I would love to hear them explain why the price for just the '03 is $3000 for the tuner version. Did things really change that much that they had to put iun a huge amount of time to understand it versus the other years???
First to market gets the spoils for a time I guess, nothing wrong with that, I just think their pricing and update cost are a total **** raping with NO lube!!!
First to market gets the spoils for a time I guess, nothing wrong with that, I just think their pricing and update cost are a total **** raping with NO lube!!!
02-28-2003, 08:56 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF BTW, I assume you mean "cut off" from the newest version in work...I thought Ken said EVERYBODY got version 1.21, the last officially distributed.
(edit: checked my records, what Ken actually said was everybody got version 1.1. That jibes with what everyone is saying here)
Tell us more, Black LS1 T/A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
This is the only part of LS1edit I don't care for - the cut-off on "updates". Many of the things that are going to be viewed by Ken as "upgrades" are going to be viewed by users as "bug fixes" or things that were "left out" of earlier releases.
That is the Microsoft business model...release buggy and undocumented software..charge for fixes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Plum Crazy Rob ]</small>
(edit: checked my records, what Ken actually said was everybody got version 1.1. That jibes with what everyone is saying here)
Tell us more, Black LS1 T/A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
This is the only part of LS1edit I don't care for - the cut-off on "updates". Many of the things that are going to be viewed by Ken as "upgrades" are going to be viewed by users as "bug fixes" or things that were "left out" of earlier releases.
That is the Microsoft business model...release buggy and undocumented software..charge for fixes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Plum Crazy Rob ]</small>
02-28-2003, 10:21 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF NO... not everybody got V1.21.
I was an early buyer and my updates expired with V1.11!
I'll know better next time to be a beta tester and early adopter.
I bought it early and added 3 more vehicles. So, I spent quite a bit. The only saving grace is that I didn't have to pay the RIDICULOUS $50 shipping & handling fee! LOLs
It SUCKS to be stuck at V1.11 and KNOW that it has the original bugs in it. Example: MISSING DTCs for 98s!!! Yeah, they fixed it all in V1.21 but I have to Pay another $100+ for bug fixes, screen sizing flexibility and a whole lot of truck stuff and other stuff I'll never use.
MANY people offer them help with their website, with the program, with payment methods, but since day one (early 90's??) they seem to like to run on bare bones yet rake us for the cost.
Heck, even Microsoft makes things pretty when they can't fix bugs, etc.. for the next version. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Although, when you think about it, they have NO REASON to do ANYTHING but the MINIMUM.
Besides, by the time someone comes out with a competitive product, the LS1 market (especially now that the Fbodies are dead) will fizzle to where it wouldn't be worth it. THEY know this!
The LARGER issue are the LS1 buyers themselves. AS CHIKN said, because of the net craze, etc, the LS1 crowd is WILLING TO PAY OUTRAGEOUS prices for preformance products. Everyone gets caught up with trying to beat someone elses time accross the country because they read it on the net or listening to the "top dawgz", etc.. etc..
Heck, WE are BENDING OVER for the manufacturers and they KNOW THIS. Just look at all the "LS1 Specific" shops that have opened over the past few years and are thriving! Some people change out their $500 cams like underwear!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
So, WHY oh WHY are you guys SHOCKED by the cost of LS1Edit again? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I was an early buyer and my updates expired with V1.11!
I'll know better next time to be a beta tester and early adopter.
I bought it early and added 3 more vehicles. So, I spent quite a bit. The only saving grace is that I didn't have to pay the RIDICULOUS $50 shipping & handling fee! LOLs
It SUCKS to be stuck at V1.11 and KNOW that it has the original bugs in it. Example: MISSING DTCs for 98s!!! Yeah, they fixed it all in V1.21 but I have to Pay another $100+ for bug fixes, screen sizing flexibility and a whole lot of truck stuff and other stuff I'll never use.
MANY people offer them help with their website, with the program, with payment methods, but since day one (early 90's??) they seem to like to run on bare bones yet rake us for the cost.
Heck, even Microsoft makes things pretty when they can't fix bugs, etc.. for the next version. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Although, when you think about it, they have NO REASON to do ANYTHING but the MINIMUM.
Besides, by the time someone comes out with a competitive product, the LS1 market (especially now that the Fbodies are dead) will fizzle to where it wouldn't be worth it. THEY know this!
The LARGER issue are the LS1 buyers themselves. AS CHIKN said, because of the net craze, etc, the LS1 crowd is WILLING TO PAY OUTRAGEOUS prices for preformance products. Everyone gets caught up with trying to beat someone elses time accross the country because they read it on the net or listening to the "top dawgz", etc.. etc..
Heck, WE are BENDING OVER for the manufacturers and they KNOW THIS. Just look at all the "LS1 Specific" shops that have opened over the past few years and are thriving! Some people change out their $500 cams like underwear!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
So, WHY oh WHY are you guys SHOCKED by the cost of LS1Edit again? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
02-28-2003, 10:28 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF Oh and NO $13K for a shop version is not to expensive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> QUIT COMPLAINING you fools or it'll be $20K for the next release! lols
Besides, could you imagine all the wannabe tuners out their screwing up peoples cars if it WAS cheap? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
$550 for a personal version is a great price for what it does. Still not high enough to keep it out of hands that shouldn't use it however. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Besides, what good does complaining do about a company in control of a market? Heck, we have complete world countries and millions of people that complain about Microsoft products and where has that gotten us? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: JAS ]</small>
Besides, could you imagine all the wannabe tuners out their screwing up peoples cars if it WAS cheap? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
$550 for a personal version is a great price for what it does. Still not high enough to keep it out of hands that shouldn't use it however. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Besides, what good does complaining do about a company in control of a market? Heck, we have complete world countries and millions of people that complain about Microsoft products and where has that gotten us? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: JAS ]</small>
02-28-2003, 10:45 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JAS:
<strong> but since day one (early 90's??) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Day one was December '99 for the original LT1Edit from Carputing.
I was running pre-LT1Edit in July/August of '99. I was either Alpha Tester #2 or #1 on the software. I think Len Sabatine may have been before me, but not by much. (edit - oops, had the wrong guy in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
They really have come a long way in 3 years, trust me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> But still, it's just the 2 guys, supporting LT1's, OBDII LT1's, and LS1 / LS6 / LM7 / yada yada yada variants. Remember, just because you see a single interface, doesn't mean the software is all the same. They have to build editor definition files for EVERY engine variant out there, for all the different years. It's a helluva lot of work to support all of the platforms that they do. It'd be different if all GM calibrations were the same, but they are not.
-Andrew
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Camaroholic ]</small>
<strong> but since day one (early 90's??) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Day one was December '99 for the original LT1Edit from Carputing.
I was running pre-LT1Edit in July/August of '99. I was either Alpha Tester #2 or #1 on the software. I think Len Sabatine may have been before me, but not by much. (edit - oops, had the wrong guy in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
They really have come a long way in 3 years, trust me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> But still, it's just the 2 guys, supporting LT1's, OBDII LT1's, and LS1 / LS6 / LM7 / yada yada yada variants. Remember, just because you see a single interface, doesn't mean the software is all the same. They have to build editor definition files for EVERY engine variant out there, for all the different years. It's a helluva lot of work to support all of the platforms that they do. It'd be different if all GM calibrations were the same, but they are not.
-Andrew
<small>[ February 28, 2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Camaroholic ]</small>
02-28-2003, 10:57 AM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF WOW, now I even more impressed. I thought they have been doing various cal software for a long time.
No, I'm not debating the complexity of the product, etc. Obviously, it's not easy or everyone would be doing it.
I am impressed with Ken that he picked up VB just to do LT1Edit and had the _____ to put what he learned about the PCM to a very lucrative business!
However, when you start boldly charging people $50 shipping/handling fee, then it's just a tad bit more than bending the customer over personally.
No, I'm not debating the complexity of the product, etc. Obviously, it's not easy or everyone would be doing it.
I am impressed with Ken that he picked up VB just to do LT1Edit and had the _____ to put what he learned about the PCM to a very lucrative business!
However, when you start boldly charging people $50 shipping/handling fee, then it's just a tad bit more than bending the customer over personally.
02-28-2003, 01:37 PM
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Re: $13,000 for LS1Edit 97-03???WTF If that $50 fee is totally bogus (shipping and handling), and it appears that way, they should have just increased the price $50, and dropped the s&h fee. There would be a lot less complaining.