Can our cars Run on e85
Don't bank on making power from the octane. It is rated 105 octane, but that is summerblend. Winter blend likely is much lower probably around 96 octane. Remember, you only get E65-E70 in the winter. It is more variable than gasoline, where, at least I believe, the octane is consistent. E85 it is not. Don't expect to be able to time it for 105 octane. I have seen real world I can get around 4-6 degrees more timing at WOT than with 87 octane (reverse cooled), which typically works for me fairly well with 93 octane when I can't get E85.
With a turbo, yes, you can get more power, the alcohol will do WELL. Think of it as intercooled fuel. It will absorb a lot more heat and make a much denser charge. I would bet you can run closer to 12 psi boost without an intercooler with E85 vs gas. General rule of thumb is 10 psi and below, intercoolers don't make you much if any more power than without. The intake plumbing and turbo lag increase dramatically when you add several feet to the intake tract.
With a turbo, yes, you can get more power, the alcohol will do WELL. Think of it as intercooled fuel. It will absorb a lot more heat and make a much denser charge. I would bet you can run closer to 12 psi boost without an intercooler with E85 vs gas. General rule of thumb is 10 psi and below, intercoolers don't make you much if any more power than without. The intake plumbing and turbo lag increase dramatically when you add several feet to the intake tract.
Originally Posted by Hennytime
there was a thread on some ford power site where svt sponsored a 95 turbo build up and it made 100rwhp more on e85 vs 93 octane gasoline...i think they said e85 was 115octane
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,130
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From: Tranås, Sweden
Originally Posted by RamAirRocket
I tried that, it doesn't work on the OBD1 LT1 PCM well at all. The transition from open loop to closed loop would cause a large bog until the PCM realized that it isn't going to make fuel for an E85 9.8:1 AFR vs a 14.7:1 AFR gas engine.
2 ways to do it, but I feel that the Injector Constant way did solve a lot more problems than the other way, which is how I went about it first.
Try both ways, see how it goes. Your PCM might be a lot faster than mine, as mine is a 12 years old design.
2 ways to do it, but I feel that the Injector Constant way did solve a lot more problems than the other way, which is how I went about it first.
Try both ways, see how it goes. Your PCM might be a lot faster than mine, as mine is a 12 years old design.
I can't change stoich (well, AFR really) in mine in closed loop, only open. Sorry, though you were changing it there. My PCM is far more limited.
Out of curiosity, what would it take for my to modify my LT1 to a FlexFuel PCM? As I have the optispark, which I hope to replace soon, and I want to put LS1 coils on, it would be ideal to convert it to "true" E85 compatibility.
Probably have to wait a while till the pcm costs come down. Heck, it would be ideal to pickup the Flex Fuel 5.3L LS1, trans and PCM and put it all in as a conversion....
Originally Posted by D_Run
Yes... But since changing the Stoich if what happens in the Tahoe Flexifuel PCM (controlled by a sensor in the tank) i´l think i´l stay with it.
Probably have to wait a while till the pcm costs come down. Heck, it would be ideal to pickup the Flex Fuel 5.3L LS1, trans and PCM and put it all in as a conversion....
The factory I used to work at produced E85 and after watching some tests in their lab, I won't use it on a car not designed for it. Informing others that it safe to do so is also ill advised. Not my car though so do as you wish.
Why? What is bad about it? If you add water to it, yes it can be bad, but I have never once heard of a single legit source with showing anything bad of it. You hear the stories of clogged fuel injectors and crap on intake valves, but they are 20 year old stories and not a one has any proof, just an ancient hearsay story.
What do you know about it? What tests?
What do you know about it? What tests?
Originally Posted by gillbot
The factory I used to work at produced E85 and after watching some tests in their lab, I won't use it on a car not designed for it. Informing others that it safe to do so is also ill advised. Not my car though so do as you wish.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Texas
Originally Posted by gillbot
The factory I used to work at produced E85 and after watching some tests in their lab, I won't use it on a car not designed for it. Informing others that it safe to do so is also ill advised. Not my car though so do as you wish.
Id be intrested in more info on these tests...
I am looking for cold hard data that says this is a bad idea. Most of it is just people who don't like the idea that they would not be supporting the middle east for oil. Or that possibly, change is GOOD.
Like Methanol, yes, it is harsh stuff, but still, with effort I would use if I needed to.
There was a place in southern OK/Northern Texas near Witicha Falls that when I called him 15 years ago said bring containers and he would give me all the methanol I wanted. wish I still lived there!!
Like Methanol, yes, it is harsh stuff, but still, with effort I would use if I needed to.
There was a place in southern OK/Northern Texas near Witicha Falls that when I called him 15 years ago said bring containers and he would give me all the methanol I wanted. wish I still lived there!!
Originally Posted by D_Run
Sounds like bullshit 
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Originally Posted by D_Run
Sounds like bullshit
Accelerated corrosion and severe seal failures were what we were experiencing, and it was NOT over a 20 year period. Not to mention part fatigue on quite a few components. Just stating my thoughts on the matter and results I saw first hand.
Edit: We had to do some serious R&D to correct these issues as well. Components that were not designed to handle E85 were failing quickly and repeatedly. ONCE AGAIN, I am just stating info from OUR tests. If you want to run it, that's your buisness.
I stand behind my statement that telling others it is ok to run it in their vehicle that was NOT designed for it is ill advised.
Sorry if I don't know your background. Is this in automotive designed parts and applications?
I was going to get a jar and put some E85 in it with some injector o-rings and a rubber hose and see how long it takes them to deteriorate.
Any issues with steel? I know that where there is E85 present that they use Stainless. I will be looking for a stainless fuel filter if they used it in production.
Being I have so little rubber and my friend who has run a 98 Malibu 3.1L in school with E85 for 4 years with nothing but E85, sitting most of the time, as they only went 20K miles in that period with no rubber failures at all, I figured I am not doing too badly.
Fuel Press Reg and Inj O-Rings are alll I can find that isn't steel or plastic. Maybe the lines to rails might have an o-ring.
Anywhere else I need to look?
I'm not bashing, sorry if I came across that way. I just want to know from experience what issues are real vs what is not.
I was going to get a jar and put some E85 in it with some injector o-rings and a rubber hose and see how long it takes them to deteriorate.
Any issues with steel? I know that where there is E85 present that they use Stainless. I will be looking for a stainless fuel filter if they used it in production.
Being I have so little rubber and my friend who has run a 98 Malibu 3.1L in school with E85 for 4 years with nothing but E85, sitting most of the time, as they only went 20K miles in that period with no rubber failures at all, I figured I am not doing too badly.
Fuel Press Reg and Inj O-Rings are alll I can find that isn't steel or plastic. Maybe the lines to rails might have an o-ring.
Anywhere else I need to look?
I'm not bashing, sorry if I came across that way. I just want to know from experience what issues are real vs what is not.
Originally Posted by gillbot
Wow, I GO TO WORK for one day and someone jumps all over me. Whatever.... I really don't give a **** if anyone here believes me or not. I have nothing to prove to anyone here.
Accelerated corrosion and severe seal failures were what we were experiencing, and it was NOT over a 20 year period. Not to mention part fatigue on quite a few components. Just stating my thoughts on the matter and results I saw first hand.
Edit: We had to do some serious R&D to correct these issues as well. Components that were not designed to handle E85 were failing quickly and repeatedly. ONCE AGAIN, I am just stating info from OUR tests. If you want to run it, that's your buisness.
I stand behind my statement that telling others it is ok to run it in their vehicle that was NOT designed for it is ill advised.
Accelerated corrosion and severe seal failures were what we were experiencing, and it was NOT over a 20 year period. Not to mention part fatigue on quite a few components. Just stating my thoughts on the matter and results I saw first hand.
Edit: We had to do some serious R&D to correct these issues as well. Components that were not designed to handle E85 were failing quickly and repeatedly. ONCE AGAIN, I am just stating info from OUR tests. If you want to run it, that's your buisness.
I stand behind my statement that telling others it is ok to run it in their vehicle that was NOT designed for it is ill advised.
The summary of the report that I saw was that Viton seals and Stainless Steel were required. As far as times to deterioration, metals used and whatnot, all that data was analyzed by the chemists, of which I am not. I was NOT part of this research, I was just a car guy going to the lab to nib since I would have liked to run the fuel in my car also. I was told by a friend in the lab to only use it in a car designed for it. Period.
I know after reading a good bit on some of the GN boards, some have had luck running it and some have not. Personally, I'd rather not take the risk. If something could fail and cause damage or worse yet a fire, I'll pass over saving a few $ here and there.
I know after reading a good bit on some of the GN boards, some have had luck running it and some have not. Personally, I'd rather not take the risk. If something could fail and cause damage or worse yet a fire, I'll pass over saving a few $ here and there.
Some negative thoughts on Ethanol fuels
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...427_493909.htm
I haven't honestly read it all yet. And much info is 11 years old, things have changes a lot in our PCM's since then. (well, not mine! It is 12 years old!!)
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...427_493909.htm
I haven't honestly read it all yet. And much info is 11 years old, things have changes a lot in our PCM's since then. (well, not mine! It is 12 years old!!)
http://e85fuel.com/index.php
IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR GASOLINE TO OPERATE ON E85?
Yes. However, there are no conversions or aftermarket parts that have been certified by the EPA as meeting the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties. No aftermarket conversion company has taken the initiative to certify an E85 kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on 85 percent ethanol.
The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex. Additionally, the production of vehicles by auto manufacturers that are capable of operating on unleaded gasoline or E85 (flexible fuel vehicles) at little or no additional cost over the gasoline only model, provide little incentive for a conversion company to undertake the very expensive and time consuming task of aftermarket certification.
Yes. However, there are no conversions or aftermarket parts that have been certified by the EPA as meeting the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties. No aftermarket conversion company has taken the initiative to certify an E85 kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on 85 percent ethanol.
The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex. Additionally, the production of vehicles by auto manufacturers that are capable of operating on unleaded gasoline or E85 (flexible fuel vehicles) at little or no additional cost over the gasoline only model, provide little incentive for a conversion company to undertake the very expensive and time consuming task of aftermarket certification.
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
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From: Texas
See, I think that folks aren't looking at what you can do with E85.
Its pretty hard to find down here. But, look at it as "poor man's race gas". Its 85% Ethanol which has an octane of 129 + 15% 87 Octane regular gas. Think about CR. you can make up the power loss by increasing the CR.
Now, I'm not aware of summer and winter blends (as its summer here year round ). Anyhow, keep in mind each point of compression is worth 4% in HP. Since most folks find in a N/A you can pretty safely run 12.5 - 13.5:1 on 104 racing unleaded can you see where upping the compression of your ls1 from say 2 full points and picking up *5 HP might be advantageous?
In a boosted application, yes it'd help out quite a bit based on its tendancy to cool the incoming charge think of alcohol injection used to keep down KR on pump gas motors. Also, on methanol (not ethanol) you see about 5% more power in an N/A application. But, because of methanol's properties under a boosted application you see about 12-15% more HP vs gasoline. I suspect ethanol is similar, but don't have hard data.
BTU's per gallon for Methanol are ound 50% of that of gasoline, but BTU's per gallon of Ethanol vs gasoline are only about 10% lower.
I think too many folks are thinking to gasoline centric, and aren't thinking about what you can do to maximize the performance of a vehicle on alcohol. If you think about what you can do with it, it realy does open some doors to do some pretty cool stuff.
As for destroying all your parts. I've worked around alcohol dragsters for years. I know what methanol does to certain parts. Again, I'm not sure how corrosive E85 is vs conventional gasoline. But in some fuel systems a few changes might have to be made. But, we're not talking rocket science.
Its pretty hard to find down here. But, look at it as "poor man's race gas". Its 85% Ethanol which has an octane of 129 + 15% 87 Octane regular gas. Think about CR. you can make up the power loss by increasing the CR.
Now, I'm not aware of summer and winter blends (as its summer here year round
). Anyhow, keep in mind each point of compression is worth 4% in HP. Since most folks find in a N/A you can pretty safely run 12.5 - 13.5:1 on 104 racing unleaded can you see where upping the compression of your ls1 from say 2 full points and picking up *5 HP might be advantageous?In a boosted application, yes it'd help out quite a bit based on its tendancy to cool the incoming charge think of alcohol injection used to keep down KR on pump gas motors. Also, on methanol (not ethanol) you see about 5% more power in an N/A application. But, because of methanol's properties under a boosted application you see about 12-15% more HP vs gasoline. I suspect ethanol is similar, but don't have hard data.
BTU's per gallon for Methanol are ound 50% of that of gasoline, but BTU's per gallon of Ethanol vs gasoline are only about 10% lower.
I think too many folks are thinking to gasoline centric, and aren't thinking about what you can do to maximize the performance of a vehicle on alcohol. If you think about what you can do with it, it realy does open some doors to do some pretty cool stuff.
As for destroying all your parts. I've worked around alcohol dragsters for years. I know what methanol does to certain parts. Again, I'm not sure how corrosive E85 is vs conventional gasoline. But in some fuel systems a few changes might have to be made. But, we're not talking rocket science.
Originally Posted by gillbot
Last edited by BanditTA; May 4, 2006 at 07:37 AM.
Thing about it is, they are mostly comparing OLD cars, like old carb cars to those that run E85.
Honestly, I have combed over my fuel system, and can only find 2, possibly 3 places there is any rubber. I have a plastic tank, plastic lines, steel lines, aluminum rails. There is a rubber diaphram in the fuel press reg, the o-rings on the injectors (mine are 2001 LS6) and possibly in the plastic lines where they connect to the fuel rails might have an o-ring.
I still need even larger injectors, mine are not near large enough. I need closer to 40 lbs/hr. GM has around 36 lb/hr from what I hear in the 5.3L FFV's. I don't think the LT1 is as efficient as the LS1 FFV and I might make some mods to it later on, so I would prefer to have larger to make sure I have enough headroom for power mods.
Honestly, I have combed over my fuel system, and can only find 2, possibly 3 places there is any rubber. I have a plastic tank, plastic lines, steel lines, aluminum rails. There is a rubber diaphram in the fuel press reg, the o-rings on the injectors (mine are 2001 LS6) and possibly in the plastic lines where they connect to the fuel rails might have an o-ring.
I still need even larger injectors, mine are not near large enough. I need closer to 40 lbs/hr. GM has around 36 lb/hr from what I hear in the 5.3L FFV's. I don't think the LT1 is as efficient as the LS1 FFV and I might make some mods to it later on, so I would prefer to have larger to make sure I have enough headroom for power mods.
Originally Posted by BanditTA
Great info!! GM had an article a few months back that went to dealers stating the differences in flexfuel vehicles. What others have already stated these vehicles have different tanks, lines, injectors, tuning etc. 1500 dollars worth of difference. I wouldn't run the risk
Originally Posted by BanditTA
Great info!! GM had an article a few months back that went to dealers stating the differences in flexfuel vehicles. What others have already stated these vehicles have different tanks, lines, injectors, tuning etc. 1500 dollars worth of difference. I wouldn't run the risk
I'd love to run it in my car but to me, the risks or cost of upgrading isn't worth it.
Agreed. I have been studying my fuel system and am pretty familliar with what is and is not there.
Is there anyway to identify viton rubber? Is it black or red or?
Is there anyway to identify viton rubber? Is it black or red or?
Originally Posted by gillbot
That's the only point I was trying to make. I hate it when I see someone tell another person it's fine to run it. There's a little more to it than that. As long as the person knows ALL of the risks, have at it!
I'd love to run it in my car but to me, the risks or cost of upgrading isn't worth it.
I'd love to run it in my car but to me, the risks or cost of upgrading isn't worth it.
yes, one must be quite sure their vehicles fuel system components are up to snuff, while not nearly as nasty as methanol, ethanol over the long term can eat certain rubber components.
I would think it would be relatively easily once the parts are identified, to lookup the part # on the flex fuel vehicles with 5.3L motor for example and see if the part # are any different, and if so, order them and replace them.
The big issue is making sure you injectors can handle the 40% increased flow rate...
I would think it would be relatively easily once the parts are identified, to lookup the part # on the flex fuel vehicles with 5.3L motor for example and see if the part # are any different, and if so, order them and replace them.
The big issue is making sure you injectors can handle the 40% increased flow rate...
Originally Posted by RamAirRocket
Agreed. I have been studying my fuel system and am pretty familliar with what is and is not there.
Is there anyway to identify viton rubber? Is it black or red or?
Is there anyway to identify viton rubber? Is it black or red or?
VitonŽ fluoroelastomer is the most specified fluoroelastomer, well known for its excellent (400°F/200°C) heat resistance. VitonŽ offers excellent resistance to aggressive fuels and chemicals and has worldwide ISO 9000 registration.