frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

Yep no RTT for 98's from HPT I remember that post rather well and will pull it up if needed.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=142

There is the link.

regarding the efilive/roadrunner RTT for 98's.
I can dig up a core too if needed.
J

Alvin

iTrader: (2)

'

I think your missing the point of the roadrunner. It gives you REAL time tuning on ALL the tables inside the PCM. Have crazy problem like starting with the AC on? Well you can play with the AC tables and see INSTANTLY if you are helping, hurting, or not making a difference.

And wireless isn't just a cool factor thing.. I'll be damn if I put a wire thru the firewall on my Z06.. Instead i just pop the wireless roadrunner in and connect right to with with my bluetooth equipped laptop.

Don't have a blue tooth laptop? No big deal the dongles are cheap.

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

There are bundles of wires going through your firewall , don't get hung up on one.

So if I'm understanding this correctly Roadrunner is a stand alone PCM that connects directly to a laptop right? Does RR have it's own software or do you have to have EFI LIve to run it?

Checkmate

iTrader: (2)

This confuses me, RTT custom 1 bar OS and maf RTT?
I thought there was only 1 version of RTT.

Does one allow access to more tables?

bmfcamaro

iTrader: (1)

each operating system (1 bar enhanced maf, 1 bar enhanced sd, 2bar, and 3bar) can be used with the RTT, if the OS is supported for the pcm.

i think hptuners is the way to go for everyday people. efi seems to be suited for shops. thats just my opinion.

Black02SS

iTrader: (36)

While this thread wasn't intended to go this way, I will ask again, how is RTT possible for 1 bar without a wideband? The Std Version of HPT doesn't allow one to be intergrated into the interface.

Magnus

iTrader: (4)

the 1bar MAP sensor plugs into the PCM. The PCM does not care if you have a MPVI Std or a MPVI Pro interface.

Our VCM Enhancements work on every interface we have made. (2.5 bar on LS2 vehicles requires an MPVI interface to talk to the Gen4 based vehicles).

RTT is simply a function of our VCM Enhancements.

Customers who have had VCM Enhancement licenses before we released our newest version of VCM Enhancements (with RTT) can simply reapply the VCM Enhancement to their stock OS to take advantage of the new RTT capabilities of the new VCM Enhancements (Not all VCM Enhancements support RTT yet, the software will tell you if its supported or not).

For many of our customers, RTT is FREE.

With any VCM Suite order you place, there is enough licenses to apply RTT to at least two vehicles at no additional cost.

If you do not have additional credits to use for the license, we have RTT solutions that start at just $49.99 and use the factory controller hardware.

If you are new to tuning and need to play with tables to see their effect, then yes having access to every parameter in real time is something you can only get with the roadrunner.

We do not recommend changing parameters live or via reflashes unless you know what they do. You can cause damage this way.

If you are an experienced tuner though, you will know what parameters to change. Most of the parameters are parameters that don't require re-tuning, like shift points, rev limiters, speed limiters, fan points, etc...

Our RTT solution is dyno proven. We have demo'd it at several shops and have a continuous demo at the super chevy show and it shows that it will save you time (if you know how to tune) over any solution available.

Our solution gives you real time control over the spark and fueling tables without having to reflash. You can dial in these tables on the dyno without ever having to shut the car off, then reflash it in.. 30 seconds later you are done.

Its a lot easier to sit in the car, apply a VCM Enhancement with RTT (takes 2 or 4 minutes depending on OS) and just start tuning, then reflash your changes when you're done (30 seconds) than to change hardware imho..

This is like comparing apples to oranges though. Two seperate products designed with different functionality, and different price ranges.

Clearly though with all the RTT talk on all of the forums, it is an affordable real time tuning solution that our customers are enjoying. With the release of the auto-tune functionality, it will only get better.

foff667

iTrader: (2)

not everyone starts out with a wideband...and there are more then enough paramters to change in realtime with both the moates system or hptuners system without the need for one...idle parameters, cracker, follower, spark, ve/maf using trims, etc. but the egr integration is also still a viable option for some https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...t=egr+hptuners

JMBLOWNWS6

iTrader: (17)

All I have to say is the HP tuners RTT is working really well. And the new cable is awesome.

TAQuickness

iTrader: (28)

And then some, but then again,
Straight from the horses mouth

LostCauseZ06

iTrader: (4)

when is this said "auto tune" function going to be released?? jebus that would be NICE!! make sure you throw in options for safe, wild, or nitrous tunes

Alvin

iTrader: (2)

One thing that has always bothered me about RTT is what you deem important and unimportant for us to be able to modify. If you haven't had the need to touch something you normally don't in order to clear up an unusual problem than you haven't done enough cars.

On the HPtuners board right now there are post detailing cold start issues with speed density OS's. It is my belief that if they had a road runner they could try modifying IAT tables and with instant feedback they can know if they are going in the right direction or not.

I would say the best way to resolve the difference is to make a post where only product USERS are able to comment on the the product they are using.


Having used both I will say this.

RTT is a nice tool to straighten out the VE and Spark tables.

The roadrunner will allow you to tune the entire PCM real time.


I feel like a roadrunner would be a better solution to someone new to tuning and especially with hard to tune setups as it offers instant feedback. The only possiblity for real damage to be done while making real time changes is you running your car into something/body. The roadrunner is not for someone as a fit all solution who plans on tuning many vehicles unless that person buys a commercial license also.

RTT also seems a bit slow to take updates. While a car is loaded for instance you can take a road runner and +/- values until you make peak torque, bucking stops, AFR's come inline etc.. While RTT seems to be more noticable when making these changes. In fact it took a change the wrong way one time and stalled the car on the freeway (my fault, shouldn't have been tuning in traffic.. I wasn't driving at least)

The major disadvantage to the road runner is the price.


Note that I'm not trying to endorse one product and bash another.. After all I own both. Its just occasionally I like to speak on things I have plenty of experience with.

joecar

You get what you pay for.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

But they always do, don't they

Everyone gets touchy when it comes to how they spent their money, me included. At the end of the day though, both products are light years ahead of what used to be available "back in the day"...

Black02SS

iTrader: (36)

Unfortunately yes.

Craig Moates

iTrader: (1)

Folks,

Quote: "This is like comparing apples to oranges though. Two separate products designed with different functionality, and different price ranges."

This is an important point to remember. The title of this thread is, after all, suggesting that a comparison be made.

In one case, you're talking about having total and absolute control over every aspect of the vehicle calibration. You're talking about being able to do it wirelessly at lightning speed. You're talking about being able to start (and end) with a stock (or custom) calibration strategy. An investment in serious tuning hardware which costs less than most people spend on a set of tires. A hardware solution, a true flash memory emulator, which supports the stock PCM as well as multiple software solutions. Diesel, LS1, 98 PCMs, V6(soon), you name it.

It's one of those things that once you've tried it, you wonder how you ever went without. Ever had something like that?

The Roadrunner is something which was intended to give you the opportunity to educate yourself (and others) on tuning techniques and parameter relationships through real-world experimentation. The Roadrunner was NOT designed to satisfy a generation of folks who are hooked on spoon-feeding and point-and-click satisfaction. It's not something which targets customers of products like SuperChips or Hypertech, it's not a quick-fix of pre-defined parameter selections. While auto-tuning is obviously possible (and planned) to a severe extent with the Roadrunner/EFILive combination, don't expect this sort of thing to subtract the need for human intervention and understanding from the tuning equation. It is a tool.

In the case of HPT RTT, you're looking at a fairly effective adaptation. While it is functionally limited and very different compared to the Roadrunner, it does what is intended. That is to provide the user the ability to tweak a few parameters and eventually propagate some of those tweaks into a tune file for reflash. This gives the 'feel' of on-the-fly tuning, and frankly is a novel and resourceful way to use existing hardware. It also matches well with the existing credit-based HPT licensing strategy.

There are those that would claim HPT, despite their successful marketing strategies, was starting to feel heat from the likes of EFILive, particularly from users who have had extensive experience with both systems. Could this have played into their decision to roll out RTT, apparently detracting from the advantage EFILive has with the Roadrunner alliance? Who knows, I don't think so though.

I've always been a bit amazed at how decisions are made almost exclusively on dollar cost. Sort of the $199 -vs- $200 mentality. Be that as it may, it's just human nature to save a fast nickel only to spend the slow dime later. That's not something which can be resolved here to be certain.

I'll admit that the PCM swap on the Vettes is a bit of a pain. However, if you have any trouble swapping your PCM on an F-Body in under 5 minutes, you need to close the hood and step away from the vehicle.

This is just my $0.10 even though I try to let this stuff run its course. You wouldn't want to adopt a Rat if you really want a Cat. They both do well as pets, but their differences will become clear particularly if they spend quality time together.

All in good spirit,
-Craig-

gameover

Hi Craig,

The reasons behind why RTT went the way it did are pretty simple, we had a number of options to choose from and we picked one that we thought was the best fit to our business and commercial situation. No doubt at one point the Roadrunner was one of the options (you know from the many emails we exchanged at the time) but for various reasons it didn't go down that way. We also assesed another hardware option but in the end, being tied to a 3rd party who was also working with our competitors (or even accidently creating another competitor) is obviously something that makes people nervous.

From a technical standpoint, we saw an opening and went for it. Of course there are pro's and con's of RTT and we aren't hiding them or trying to make outlandish technical comparisons to RR because they aren't the same thing.

In the end, i think its good for the LS1 community that the solutions are different in so many ways and we're not here debating bluetooth vs. 802.11, who's USB chipset is better, how long the batteries last or if red paint is better than blue

Cheers,

Chris...

Super Sport X2

I don't remember seeing a comparison sheet on our website Craig.....



-Ken

Black02SS

iTrader: (36)

I feel this comparison is necessary to help compliment the one that is part of the sticky here that Foff made. After all, if we are going to have a PDF that compares the two products, lets try and make it as accurate as possible.

slow

iTrader: (7)

Interesting posts by some on here.

There are benefits and negatives to both options. I've used the roadrunner for the 99+ LSx cars, with great results in the f-body applications, Using tuning knowledge I already had, within 10 minutes, I was able to do live tuning, and gained 15rwhp in the process, great drivability, ect.

I had another friend who I was helping them work on thier 99 vette, an option I could already do for free using the Roadrunner hardware I have. Well, installing it into a vette, is not an easy task, so they choose to use the HPT tuning solution. While I don't like the fact you can't change around too much without reflashing the OS with the option you like, doing fueling in real time, and idle in realtime made dialing in this heads/cam/stroker much easier than just guessing and flashing.

I look forward to the 98 roadrunners to become available.

Ryan



Ryan