Tune "worth it" on a stock car?
Originally Posted by moehorsepower
I have seen from very mild factory tunes to agressive, straight from the factory....
)
Originally Posted by shudog
I disagree. On a stock car, I think you could get a mail order tune from one of the people on here for $199 and I think you'd see more than 10 rwhp.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by txhorns281
That's odd... b/c for almost every single year vehicle group that I've pulled a STOCK program from, be it F-Body, Y-Body, Truck, or anything else, the OEM parameters are pretty much verbatim across the board... (and yeh, I've done a few )
)Funny,I've noticed pretty big difference's between same model,year car's and truck's.It's pretty common to have two identical year model's with identical option's,stat's and have a totally different calibration.Not totally,but noticeable.
Alot of it depend's on what month the vehicle was made and it's service history.Some vehicle's have never had a cal update,some have had several.
I'm a dealership tech and download every stock file that come's through our lot(ford) that is GM.I pull the V8's to put in my file library and I pull the V6's to send to John @TC for development of the new def file's.From the one's I have compared (quite a few) it's a crapshoot what calibration a given vehicle will have depending on model year,option's,possible recall's performed or not.
Funny that you have noticed the opposite.
Oh yeah,do a search for car craft or gm high performance article on tuning the LS1 last year or so.The netted 50~hp on a totally stock LS1 camaro doing a tuning article to show the advantage's.
Originally Posted by playtoy_18
Funny,I've noticed pretty big difference's between same model,year car's and truck's.
Originally Posted by playtoy_18
Oh yeah,do a search for car craft or gm high performance article on tuning the LS1 last year or so.The netted 50~hp on a totally stock LS1 camaro doing a tuning article to show the advantage's.
I don't know why I bother...
Originally Posted by playtoy_18
Funny,I've noticed pretty big difference's between same model,year car's and truck's.It's pretty common to have two identical year model's with identical option's,stat's and have a totally different calibration.Not totally,but noticeable.
Alot of it depend's on what month the vehicle was made and it's service history.Some vehicle's have never had a cal update,some have had several.
I'm a dealership tech and download every stock file that come's through our lot(ford) that is GM.I pull the V8's to put in my file library and I pull the V6's to send to John @TC for development of the new def file's.From the one's I have compared (quite a few) it's a crapshoot what calibration a given vehicle will have depending on model year,option's,possible recall's performed or not.
Funny that you have noticed the opposite.
Oh yeah,do a search for car craft or gm high performance article on tuning the LS1 last year or so.The netted 50~hp on a totally stock LS1 camaro doing a tuning article to show the advantage's.
Alot of it depend's on what month the vehicle was made and it's service history.Some vehicle's have never had a cal update,some have had several.
I'm a dealership tech and download every stock file that come's through our lot(ford) that is GM.I pull the V8's to put in my file library and I pull the V6's to send to John @TC for development of the new def file's.From the one's I have compared (quite a few) it's a crapshoot what calibration a given vehicle will have depending on model year,option's,possible recall's performed or not.
Funny that you have noticed the opposite.
Oh yeah,do a search for car craft or gm high performance article on tuning the LS1 last year or so.The netted 50~hp on a totally stock LS1 camaro doing a tuning article to show the advantage's.
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Verdad Gallardo OK, bashing aside, let's think of this rationally....
Alot of people still think of this in the wrong light, tuning is NOT a modification! Tuning does not actually "add" power persay, it simply maximizes the current potential of a vehicle. Again, by some of the logic here, are we saying that a stock LS1 vehicle has a potential to make 350 rwhp??? And that with this magic tune you will achieve this??? And then there's another 50 rwhp left to harness in modifications? Give me a break!
MoeHP - If you got 38 rwhp from tuning on that C5, then fine, you found yourself a really strong car, and you're one of the best LSX tuners in the biz!
Assuming that LS1 vehicles all start at about a 300 rwhp baseline, if you guys know anything at all about tuning, you can't really have people starting to believe that they will nail a 330-350 rwhp dyno after tuning on stock trim with regularity. Are there exceptions to the rule??? Sure! Once in a blue moon there's a car that defies all logic. The purpose of this forum is indeed to help people, and guys, by spreading misinformation we're not helping anyone. For the original poster, who probably doesn't even notice that this thread has been raised from the dead again, I'd hate for you to go into a shop with your bone stock vehicle, and be heart broken when you didn't get the 30, 40, or 50 horses you were looking for and paid $400 for...
I guess what trumps anything said here is that if you feel like you got something for your money, then you win everytime. I apoligize for any snide comments made, done
Alot of people still think of this in the wrong light, tuning is NOT a modification! Tuning does not actually "add" power persay, it simply maximizes the current potential of a vehicle. Again, by some of the logic here, are we saying that a stock LS1 vehicle has a potential to make 350 rwhp??? And that with this magic tune you will achieve this??? And then there's another 50 rwhp left to harness in modifications? Give me a break!
MoeHP - If you got 38 rwhp from tuning on that C5, then fine, you found yourself a really strong car, and you're one of the best LSX tuners in the biz!
Assuming that LS1 vehicles all start at about a 300 rwhp baseline, if you guys know anything at all about tuning, you can't really have people starting to believe that they will nail a 330-350 rwhp dyno after tuning on stock trim with regularity. Are there exceptions to the rule??? Sure! Once in a blue moon there's a car that defies all logic. The purpose of this forum is indeed to help people, and guys, by spreading misinformation we're not helping anyone. For the original poster, who probably doesn't even notice that this thread has been raised from the dead again, I'd hate for you to go into a shop with your bone stock vehicle, and be heart broken when you didn't get the 30, 40, or 50 horses you were looking for and paid $400 for...
I guess what trumps anything said here is that if you feel like you got something for your money, then you win everytime. I apoligize for any snide comments made, done
Originally Posted by txhorns281
OK, bashing aside, let's think of this rationally....
Alot of people still think of this in the wrong light, tuning is NOT a modification! Tuning does not actually "add" power persay, it simply maximizes the current potential of a vehicle. Again, by some of the logic here, are we saying that a stock LS1 vehicle has a potential to make 350 rwhp??? And that with this magic tune you will achieve this??? And then there's another 50 rwhp left to harness in modifications? Give me a break!
MoeHP - If you got 38 rwhp from tuning on that C5, then fine, you found yourself a really strong car, and you're one of the best LSX tuners in the biz!
Assuming that LS1 vehicles all start at about a 300 rwhp baseline, if you guys know anything at all about tuning, you can't really have people starting to believe that they will nail a 330-350 rwhp dyno after tuning on stock trim with regularity. Are there exceptions to the rule??? Sure! Once in a blue moon there's a car that defies all logic. The purpose of this forum is indeed to help people, and guys, by spreading misinformation we're not helping anyone. For the original poster, who probably doesn't even notice that this thread has been raised from the dead again, I'd hate for you to go into a shop with your bone stock vehicle, and be heart broken when you didn't get the 30, 40, or 50 horses you were looking for and paid $400 for...
I guess what trumps anything said here is that if you feel like you got something for your money, then you win everytime. I apoligize for any snide comments made, done
Alot of people still think of this in the wrong light, tuning is NOT a modification! Tuning does not actually "add" power persay, it simply maximizes the current potential of a vehicle. Again, by some of the logic here, are we saying that a stock LS1 vehicle has a potential to make 350 rwhp??? And that with this magic tune you will achieve this??? And then there's another 50 rwhp left to harness in modifications? Give me a break!
MoeHP - If you got 38 rwhp from tuning on that C5, then fine, you found yourself a really strong car, and you're one of the best LSX tuners in the biz!
Assuming that LS1 vehicles all start at about a 300 rwhp baseline, if you guys know anything at all about tuning, you can't really have people starting to believe that they will nail a 330-350 rwhp dyno after tuning on stock trim with regularity. Are there exceptions to the rule??? Sure! Once in a blue moon there's a car that defies all logic. The purpose of this forum is indeed to help people, and guys, by spreading misinformation we're not helping anyone. For the original poster, who probably doesn't even notice that this thread has been raised from the dead again, I'd hate for you to go into a shop with your bone stock vehicle, and be heart broken when you didn't get the 30, 40, or 50 horses you were looking for and paid $400 for...
I guess what trumps anything said here is that if you feel like you got something for your money, then you win everytime. I apoligize for any snide comments made, done
Originally Posted by moehorsepower
I agree, this is why I say I see anywhere from 10 to 30 RWHP gains, I have seen stock LS1's as low as 285 RWHP all the way up to 315 RWHP, as you say they are all different, I tell my customers you either have a good one or a slug, Hard to believe, But I tuned a 02 SS with Headders ONLY and it made 385 RWHP!!! If I had not done this myself I would not of believed it, of course no one elese did. This was only a one time occurence. Another customer had bolt ons and he made 360 RWHP, But this was at 6800 RPM and still climbing, I did not want to push the motor to that limit or beyond..again rare instances. But in the tuning, what I mean by mild to aggressive, I have seen total timing as low as 26* and as high as 29* in F-body to F-body,same year model. I have seen A/F from in the high 11's to low 13's same thing on LT1's, Timing as low as 33* and as much as 38*. I guess most of the cars I did were built on Fridays and Mondays LOL.. It is alway a risk in the performance dept, you might gain a little or you might gain a lot.Thanks Tx for your input, Hopes this clears things for all.
From that there is only 10 horses, give or take a few in either direction, to be had from that stage and this is how a good majority of LSX vehicles will behave. I like sticking to the averages instead of the extremes, it keeps people in touch with realistic goals, and if they happen to be an extreme case then all the better for them! Assuming that people have a run of the mill LS1 powered car (high probability), my original comparitive post was to show the $$$ to HP ratio of doing other things that would yield the same performance value.
If I have 3 or 4 options to yield relatively the same amount of net HP in the end, why would I not want to go the cheapest route? You can't argue with that one!
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
An engine/powertrain as a unit only has so much potential due to a number of variable's.Everything being equal,an NA 350 cuin has an operational limit that it will stop producing power due to several reason's.Even at max VE,everything remaining equal,tuning will be the one thing that separate's them.
Of course we're talking about a factory built engine,so there are more variable's then you can count.Ring gap,deck height's,combustion chamber volume,actual rocker ratio,weight difference's in the rotating assembly.
The tolerance's the factory has for these thing's aren't as tight as an engine builder's would be.To even put one on a level playing field it would need to be blueprinted to closer tolerance's.
So to compare tuning between 2 identical car's that are built by a factory is just absurd anyway.It's the definition of a crapshoot,was the motor built on a monday or a friday?Was a shitty supervisor on duty..again too many variable's.
Tuning the ECM is just that,Tuning.
Your maximizing the efficiency of the engine to realize it's full potential,no amount of tuning can make up for poor cylinder efficiency,a bad head casting or weak valve spring's.If you can't pull more than a few horsepower from a stock tune,maybe your tuning is substandard.Or,to put it nicer,maybe the other's tuning is more advanced.
Of course i'm not a master tuner by any mean's,and make no horsepower claim's whatsoever.I consider myself a novice,and can't probrably pull more than a few horsepower from a tune.
I do know people more knowledgable than I that can pull some nice horsepower from a stock tune.Hell even a hypercrap claim's 15hp,and that's with a generic tune.
I try to be more openminded with tuning,because of all the variable's and unknown's you never know what you might run up against.
Of course we're talking about a factory built engine,so there are more variable's then you can count.Ring gap,deck height's,combustion chamber volume,actual rocker ratio,weight difference's in the rotating assembly.
The tolerance's the factory has for these thing's aren't as tight as an engine builder's would be.To even put one on a level playing field it would need to be blueprinted to closer tolerance's.
So to compare tuning between 2 identical car's that are built by a factory is just absurd anyway.It's the definition of a crapshoot,was the motor built on a monday or a friday?Was a shitty supervisor on duty..again too many variable's.
Tuning the ECM is just that,Tuning.
Your maximizing the efficiency of the engine to realize it's full potential,no amount of tuning can make up for poor cylinder efficiency,a bad head casting or weak valve spring's.If you can't pull more than a few horsepower from a stock tune,maybe your tuning is substandard.Or,to put it nicer,maybe the other's tuning is more advanced.
Of course i'm not a master tuner by any mean's,and make no horsepower claim's whatsoever.I consider myself a novice,and can't probrably pull more than a few horsepower from a tune.
I do know people more knowledgable than I that can pull some nice horsepower from a stock tune.Hell even a hypercrap claim's 15hp,and that's with a generic tune.
I try to be more openminded with tuning,because of all the variable's and unknown's you never know what you might run up against.
