How much is too rich?
Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
Roadrunner and rtacs would be nice, but not needed. Its definately tunable...
With a 114 LSA it ought to idle pretty nice
With a 114 LSA it ought to idle pretty nice
Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
Is it cammed? Does it lope? If so you cant really trust the wideband reading at idle. If its a smooth idle motor, well, then its way too lean at idle.
BTW 10.5:1 A/F is way too rich. I would verify all your radings with another wideband. Take it to a dyno maybe?
BTW 10.5:1 A/F is way too rich. I would verify all your radings with another wideband. Take it to a dyno maybe?
Originally Posted by yobabiesdaddy2001
Why wouldnt the wideband be reliable at idel. I think that statement is inaccurate.
Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
Yeah, that chops pretty hard. It dont sound like a 114. I see why its an open loop tune. Dont trust the wideband at idle. It sees way too much oxygen. Thats also why you cant make it idle in closed loop. It really screws with the 02s. You should be able to make it run in closed loop, just have to make it idle in open. She sounds real nice, tho...
Originally Posted by sampson
It does make life easier and makes getting a perfect tune easier. Most people will stop with "ok" results if they do not have real time programing.
Originally Posted by Doc
I don't disagree that it will be "tunable." How fast and to what degree of satisfaction do you want to settle for? RR and RTACS make no excuses and deliver. As a unpaid 98 owner that has the aforementioned products I will attest to their value. My car idles @ ~ 650rpms.
And yes, I'm in total agreement that a RR makes the job faster, and most of the time with better results.
Originally Posted by Doc
The percieved/demonstrated thought process on this phenomenom is that larger/bolder cam durations/cycles can elude wideband O2's at idle with their exhuast cycles.
A wideband will show an A/F ratio of up to 18:1 at idle with a big enough cam, caused by the level of 02. When in reality the acctual A/F may be as low as 12:1. What you really need to be looking at is CO. Widebands dont measure CO.
Unless everybody wants to go out and spend 7 grand on a gas analyzer, and then spend a bunch of time learning to understand it, widebands will have to do for most.
Most think that a gas analyzer isnt needed except for emissions testing. I'm here to tell ya its one of the best tuning tools there is.
Where a wideband could be compared to looking out a window, using a gas analyzer is like opening the door and going outside. No comparison.
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So back to my original question. Lets say for arguments sake that my AFR readings are correct.
Does anyone think that I'll gain truckloads of power by leaning it up from 10.6:1 to 12.5:1? Or are we just talking about 10 hp or so. If its only 10 hp, then I may not bother. If its like 30 hp or more, I may want a retune.
What is everyones opinion?
Does anyone think that I'll gain truckloads of power by leaning it up from 10.6:1 to 12.5:1? Or are we just talking about 10 hp or so. If its only 10 hp, then I may not bother. If its like 30 hp or more, I may want a retune.
What is everyones opinion?
Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
Not doggin your tuning abilities, but your camshaft is pretty easy to make idle at 650. 228/114, no big deal really. I'm used to having to smooth out choppy idle, cam surge and everything else that goes with the bigger 110 LSA cams.
And yes, I'm in total agreement that a RR makes the job faster, and most of the time with better results.
And yes, I'm in total agreement that a RR makes the job faster, and most of the time with better results.
I have gas analyzers at my disposal in my laboratory where I work supporting F/A-18s. FWIW, The common WBO2's that are around today are pretty darn good for what they cost to aquire and maintain.
The key to this whole nugget is understanding how the GM PCM works. It is "nice" and not "necessary" but if you spend some quality time with a RR you will begin to understand alot of things that you would never have any idea of how the PCM reacts to changes put upon it in real time. Yes, many folks have made up many strategies that have produced stellar track times and what not but at what .
If you are purely in a persuit of the truth, then get EFI Live, a RR and a Fuel Pressure sensor and you will find tuning Nirvana.
A roadrunner is very hi on my list of must have. Hopefully in the next couple weeks. Eventually I'll end up with both versions. I have been using an emulator for chip cars for quite some time. Also have been tuning the stand alones for a long time too. So I am pretty familiar with the RTT stuff. I know that EFIlive is offering the automated tuning, and am pretty excited about trying it out.
Not doubting the power of the RR, but I wouldnt think I need one to have a good understanding of PCM operation. My background is as a driveability and emissions specialist. I picked up the tuning thang VERY quickly. I have a pretty good grasp of PCM function. Not to say owning/using a RR wont be enlightening.
PS widebands do work pretty well, but have their limitations, as I stated somewhere else. You want to talk about tuning nirvana, break out one of your gas analyzers and check out one of the pigs you were talking about. You would probably be real suprised at what those things blow out at idle. Spend a day with a car with a big cam, a wideband, and a 4 or 5 gas, and you will have a totally different opinion of wideband operation.
Not doubting the power of the RR, but I wouldnt think I need one to have a good understanding of PCM operation. My background is as a driveability and emissions specialist. I picked up the tuning thang VERY quickly. I have a pretty good grasp of PCM function. Not to say owning/using a RR wont be enlightening.
PS widebands do work pretty well, but have their limitations, as I stated somewhere else. You want to talk about tuning nirvana, break out one of your gas analyzers and check out one of the pigs you were talking about. You would probably be real suprised at what those things blow out at idle. Spend a day with a car with a big cam, a wideband, and a 4 or 5 gas, and you will have a totally different opinion of wideband operation.
Last edited by edcmat-l1; Feb 19, 2007 at 09:35 PM.
