Scoggin Dickey

iTrader: (34)

You can edit the rev limiters and alot of other parameters in the Predator once you plug it in too....I could tell you EXACTLY what it has my rev limiter set to, because I set it myself.

I'm actually learning to use it better myself currently and DiabloSport's customer service has already been great when I had questions! Also, I don't blame them for not releasing EVERYTHING it changes in the PCM.....heck, alot of companies around here want you to run their camshaft and the like without even knowing duration or lift, and people buy them like crazy!!!

LS6Vette

Thanks, but what real world driving condition would call for this "abuse mode" to invoke and retarded spark to happen? I am really just learning all this electronic engine mgmt stuff.

Would it be like running against the rev limiter for more than a second? Or what would trigger it?

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

factory max torque is set for 350 ft-lbs. if the calculated torque is more than that, it starts to pull timing. doubt you would ever see that in real world, everyday driving.

another thing that will use engine torque management is wheel spin. if the PCM detects wheel spin via the ABS sensors, it will use the engine torque management table.

LS6Vette

This is exactly what makes me cautious about plugging in a tune to my z06 pcm without knowing what specifically it will do.

My factory "advertised" torque is 400 ft-lbs and I have a console button to turn traction control (wheel spin) and active handling OFF.

I don't want to introduce a tune that'll be a step backwards from my stock settings. So if the "standard" tune for an LS1 engine is what I get when I buy a Predator or Vinci then I am screwed.

And I can't get simple answers to whether I am buying something appropriate for an 04 z06 ls6 pcm.

Very frustrating & I appreciate your help.

sprayjunkie

There is no way that the Predator would take you a step 'backwards'.
The first thing the Predator does is save a copy of the tune on your PCM, and from that tunes calibration IDs and the VIN#, the Predator is able to determine what vehicle it is right down to year, make and model.
The Predator then selects the proper tune from its memory and writes it to the cars PCM.
We have tools like our U7198 that support F-bodies, Y-bodies and V8 powered trucks from 99-02. That is alot of applications, but the tunes for an F-body are completely different than those needed for a truck, hence they are very different.
There is no generic tuning going on here....long gone are the days of plugging in a one size fits all chip and hoping it works.
As I have stated here before, we do TONS of testing to determine the best, safest tune for every application we support, and this is all we do, so we strive to be the best at it.
BTW, there is a tune in the Predator called the factory hp tune which allows the Predator to install that tune unaltered (a copy of your factory tune) unless you choose to make changes to it...this would allow you and only you to know what changes had been made to your tune.
You could set the rev limiter where you want it, and add or remove timing as you'd like...etc.

Thanks
Mike

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

one thing to understand, i'm looking at my 1999 pontiac formula files to try and answer your questions. so, your Z06 PCM might have a higher max torque value. the handhelds do not go backwards. they only enhance what's already there.

overall, it sounds like you are going to talk yourself out of a handheld, no matter what any of us tell you.

here's EFILive's demo download page.
http://efilive.com/download.aspx

this will give you an idea of what you wil lbe getting yourself into with a full tuning suite.

either way, i'll be glad to help you through whatever choice you make in the tuning world.

LS6Vette

It's really quite the opposite, , I'm trying to talk myself into it. But when I get close, something comes up again, that makes me wonder.

Like I called Vinci & left a message on Monday & called again today during business hours & got a recording. Not returning calls promptly & not having enough staff to handle calls is a classic sign of a business that is going thru a rough patch or running on a shoestring & I'm supposed to buy their software & load it into my car?

I deal with many small businesses in my "day job" & know how to read between the lines.

If I lived down the street from either of these businesses, I'd just stick my head in the door & get a sense for how they are to do business with, but that's not possible from Calif.

Then I'll check one of the forums & see a bunch of problems with the handhelds. I'm sure a lot are user caused, but still, not comforting.

Anyway, thanks again for your posts.

beaSSt

If you use the search function on this forum you will find a ton of information on tuning in general and the Predator specifically. You can find lots of links to good tuning documents and many of the LS1Tech users share tuning sheets, etc.

You also need to have some logging software to tune correctly. You need to know what your engine is doing and how your tuning is affecting this. The PC-based tuning programs can do this and there are a number of other logging applications you can buy and use to log your engine and drivetrain parameters through your OBDII port.

As for Diablo, I can't say enough about the support I have received from them and Mike (SprayJunkie) has also been excellent.

Some of your questions are kind of like asking Coke for their formula before you decide if you want to drink one or not.........

Joe Vinci

iTrader: (3)

First of all, we have been in business for 39 years and we are a multi-faceted business. The biggest problem we are having is that we transferred phone services and the transition has been far from seamless. The two companies are not cooperating with each other and because we are keeping our same phone numbers we have not been receiving calls. We are able to grab voice mail (finally) and return calls. We have also contracted to work with Crane Cams doing r&d and on an aggressive new engine product development program, so our techs and main personnel have been at Crane and return to the shop in the evening. This is keeping us so busy that we have temporarily put our installation business on hold. Our internet sales and shipping department are processing orders as usual, but will not be answering the phones when they come on line. Unfortunately, it looks like the number transfers could take up to another week to complete. However, we will be returning phone calls in the evenings between 7pm and 10pm. If you have any technical questions, leave a message and the best time in those hours to call and we will get back to you. Also you can email us at info@vincihighperformance.com or pm me on this site. Thanks, Joe.

LS6Vette

Thanks for your post.



A Coke won't cost me over $400 & it also does not have the capability (if something goes wrong) to disable my engine. It just seems like a roll of the dice using one of these, where you'll either get a nice result, or no result, or have problems that kill your car.

And I may still roll the dice, but I don't think it's silly to be asking a lot of questions considering these possibilities.

It's not like selecting & buying new wiper blades, huh?

Sneakyws6

I really think you are going to get to the point over just over worrying about what a handheld or a tuning suite will or can do for you.

There has to be over 10 users on this site that are running the Predator. I have had mine since 2001 or 2. Thats 5-6 years now and I have had no issues. The predator will work just fine and yes you may have a Z06 but it essence it is not some sort of supercar with a supercomputer and or motor. It runs the same basic block, heads, and intake setup that every other Lsx based F-body and Y-body run.

Some of the info you are asking for I think any company might have a hard time either producing and or providing just because of the nature of the request.

You traction control program is nothing more than the ECM using the ABS sensors to determine if the rear wheels are turning faster than the front. Then the ECM can either change the spark table to decrease power, cut fuel to decrease power, or apply brakes or force the gas pedal up to force the car to slow its accleration. The stability program uses all of the above and YAW sensors and thru algrythems (sp) formulas applies the brakes on what wheel will be needed to correct the stability of the car.

Have you checked to see if the company you are getting the Predator from would be willing to return it if yo are not happy? It really seems the only way you are going to be able to make a good decision is if you can actually play with the unit and see what it does to the car.

If you are worrying about the tuner harming the car, then that is a dead issues as I dont see any of the handheld tuners making any kind of adjustments that are going to "kill" any car no matter if it is a F-body or a Y-body.

LS6Vette

Hi Mike,

Now we are getting close to some specifics on how the tuner works. You say the Predator selects a specific tune (from it's built in "data base" of tunes) appropriate & tested for my pcm (based on vin#)

IF somebody at Diablo "wanted to" they could look up & tell a customer SPECIFICALLY & COMPLETELY what that tune was going to affect in the pcm.

So either A) It's a secret

or

B) Nobody has time to do it.

That's where I'm getting my hesitation to use one of these. I'm all for letting companies do business any way they want to, to their benefit or detriment.

There are potential customers who just have to know a little more than the average car/truck owner.

And I guess for most of your business the marketing claims & the posts on forums like "Dude, I plugged it in & it was awesome" is good enough. So I guess that's a decent business model.

I was just hoping that, if I asked, there might be a bit more detail available.

I guess I've beaten this dead horse enough, time to give it a rest.

Thanks.

Sneakyws6

I just dont think honestly that any tuning company is going to give away proprietary secrets that can be used by other companies because it was asked for.

If you want to know what the tune is going to do I really think that the tuning suites is going to be your better answer as like was posted you can see exactly what you are doing to the vechile before the tune is uploaded into the ECM.

LS6Vette

Thanks for the post Joe, hope you get the situation squared away soon.

LS6Vette

Thanks Sneaky (and no, it's not that I think my car is so "special". If I had an old El Camino - I know no pcm -I'd still want to know what was going to happen to it before I put a new part on)

I really don't want to or have the time to learn a suite & then learn what to change using it. Like I said b4, my fun is the driving, not the tuning.

I may just buy one & plug it in & cross my fingers. If either Vinci or Diablo were to give me the specifics on MY PCM (04 z06 & I will give the vin offline if needed) then that'll be my choice. They appear to be comparable, in general. I'm sure some specific features vary.

But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting, there has been ample opportunity for either company to provide the info requested.

If I plug either in, be assured I will post in detail, how good or bad it was.

sprayjunkie

Here is the deal.
There is no issue with not wanting to tell you about the changes made in the tunes. The thing is, there are SO MANY changes made to these tunes, that it would take days for me to try to explain it all.
When adding timing in these vehicles, you must alter several tables to tell the PCM under what conditions it should command what level of timing. You dont just go in and type in 26° and then you're done. You must also set all of your modifiers and adaptive tables, like how much timing do you want the PCM to pull when the IATs get real high, or when the coolant temps rise? At what load % and RPM do you want to command full timing when at WOT? All of these changes must be made to effectively tune a vehicle, and then some.
There are just as many (more?) changes like these that need to be made in the fueling tables, and we haven't even touched on things like throttle response and torque management.
Again, if you have any SPECIFIC changes you would like to know about, let me know and I'll see what info I can get for you, but saying "I need to know more" is not gonna cut it...unless the explanation I just gave is enough to see how complicated this really is.
I'll post up some info on where the rev limiters are set a little later.

Thanks
Mike

sprayjunkie

Thanks for calling LS6Vette, makes it a bit easier to explain these things, rather than try to type it all up.
I know we'll be hearing from you as soon as you get that new Predator(s?)!!

Thanks
Mike

Sneakyws6

Sprayjunkie

Are there any adjustments that we can or should make to the torque abuse section for the Ls1 cars that have the new firmware. I see that in there and after hearing everyone talk about makes me wonder if there is anything to be gained from messing with that section of the tune.

sprayjunkie

I have all of the TM parameters disabled in my 99 Z28, and I love the way the tranny feels.
We generally recommend that in the trucks you leave the TM upshift abuse mode on, and disable the other two if you desire, but in the F-bodies, it is fine to turn them all off.
FWIW, there is enough TM removed in the tunes that it will rarely, if ever, get in your way as it is.

Thanks

LS1_TA_2002

I think he needs to look at ALL of the tables involved in order to appreciate what is going on. I'm in Cali also LS6Vette. I have HPTuners software if you're ever in or near San Diego let me know and I'll show you how intricate these PCM's are.
P.S. If you had the Predator why didn't you do at least two 1/4mi. passes? One before the tune and one after. Surely, this couldn't have 'blown' up your engine. Or go and pay for a couple of dyno pulls? To see if there is any HP/TQ change. It seems that you're a fairly knowledgeable guy, but you seem to think that the factory already does their job of 'tuning' the PCM. Remember they are tuning a compromise between performance and 'EMISSIONS'. While handhelds veer their tune towards MAX safe power at the cost of elevated emissions. Yes, this aggressive approach to release more power from your stock engine is not without consequence. On ANY race application one must concede longevity over practicality, in other words, more power equals less engine life, but the same thing can be said about road/drag racing, which it seems you like doing. Regardless, if this power comes from a handheld tuner, stroker kit, or a blower one must be prepared for any negative outcomes. When in doubt just remeber this famous quote, "racing IS breaking". Hope this helps.