Trying to tune MAF
Originally Posted by LS1curious
no 100 x .70 = 30 + 100 + 130 although when dealing with precision numbers one should actually do the math correctly. However those injectors shouldn;t need that much extra time.
70 = 260
I did have an altered injector offset table when I tried your way. But, I highly doubt it was the culprit for the rich issue. I say that for several reasons:
1) I've seen rich-to-lean vs RPM issues (like Frost) with stock injector cars when tuning your way.
2) I've seen multiple posts here and other places claiming these injectors have an offset of roughly 0.8 miliseconds at 12V, which is roughly a 30% increase in offset over stock.
3) My changes were only a 20% increase....meaning at 14V, I added roughly 0.076 miliseconds.
Math: (0.379938)*(0.2)=0.075988ms (0.379938)+(0.075988)=0.455925ms
So, I went from a 0.0038 second offset (stock) to a 0.0046 second offset at 14V.
I did it in my SD tune too, which is working fine. It's a little rich down low because I have yet to dial in that part of the VE table. If I'm in decel, I'm into DFCO after 3 seconds. So, it's not too big of a deal. What I did notice after the change was my WOT AFR lean out a little. It wanted more fuel with the new offsets. So, I made the adjustment and my butt dyno says it's better.
1) I've seen rich-to-lean vs RPM issues (like Frost) with stock injector cars when tuning your way.
2) I've seen multiple posts here and other places claiming these injectors have an offset of roughly 0.8 miliseconds at 12V, which is roughly a 30% increase in offset over stock.
3) My changes were only a 20% increase....meaning at 14V, I added roughly 0.076 miliseconds.
Math: (0.379938)*(0.2)=0.075988ms (0.379938)+(0.075988)=0.455925ms
So, I went from a 0.0038 second offset (stock) to a 0.0046 second offset at 14V.
I did it in my SD tune too, which is working fine. It's a little rich down low because I have yet to dial in that part of the VE table. If I'm in decel, I'm into DFCO after 3 seconds. So, it's not too big of a deal. What I did notice after the change was my WOT AFR lean out a little. It wanted more fuel with the new offsets. So, I made the adjustment and my butt dyno says it's better.
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I wasn't putting a specific formula out there. Just giving an example of how you could work a percentage and actually be off.
Math is not my gig.
Math is not my gig.
Originally Posted by Frost
Wtf?? 100 x .70 = 30 + 100 + 130 .....this is NOT an equation, it's unbalanced. Work to the left and then the right of equals and get:
70 = 260
70 = 260
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If your tunning using the VE method with a modified OS then who knows whats happening to the PW values. I would go back to my earlier assumption that the injector size is to small for a factory cal.
You know I don't know why I do not specifically have that problem BTW. maybe something is very different in the software between your group and myself.
I had a car come to me about a week ago with the PE enable values set to zero at low TPS. I thought it was odd then i also noticed a few other odd offsets. I had to rework the Cal from scratch with a fresh GM flash. The car was tunned with LS1 edit do you think its possiable you could have a screwy or inccorect table format in the GUI ?
I am sure my memory locations are 100% correct BTW in the software I am using.
can you put the Bin file you where working with in a standard GM bin format ?
You know I don't know why I do not specifically have that problem BTW. maybe something is very different in the software between your group and myself.
I had a car come to me about a week ago with the PE enable values set to zero at low TPS. I thought it was odd then i also noticed a few other odd offsets. I had to rework the Cal from scratch with a fresh GM flash. The car was tunned with LS1 edit do you think its possiable you could have a screwy or inccorect table format in the GUI ?
I am sure my memory locations are 100% correct BTW in the software I am using.
can you put the Bin file you where working with in a standard GM bin format ?
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
I did have an altered injector offset table when I tried your way. But, I highly doubt it was the culprit for the rich issue. I say that for several reasons:
1) I've seen rich-to-lean vs RPM issues (like Frost) with stock injector cars when tuning your way.
2) I've seen multiple posts here and other places claiming these injectors have an offset of roughly 0.8 miliseconds at 12V, which is roughly a 30% increase in offset over stock.
3) My changes were only a 20% increase....meaning at 14V, I added roughly 0.076 miliseconds.
Math: (0.379938)*(0.2)=0.075988ms (0.379938)+(0.075988)=0.455925ms
So, I went from a 0.0038 second offset (stock) to a 0.0046 second offset at 14V.
I did it in my SD tune too, which is working fine. It's a little rich down low because I have yet to dial in that part of the VE table. If I'm in decel, I'm into DFCO after 3 seconds. So, it's not too big of a deal. What I did notice after the change was my WOT AFR lean out a little. It wanted more fuel with the new offsets. So, I made the adjustment and my butt dyno says it's better.
1) I've seen rich-to-lean vs RPM issues (like Frost) with stock injector cars when tuning your way.
2) I've seen multiple posts here and other places claiming these injectors have an offset of roughly 0.8 miliseconds at 12V, which is roughly a 30% increase in offset over stock.
3) My changes were only a 20% increase....meaning at 14V, I added roughly 0.076 miliseconds.
Math: (0.379938)*(0.2)=0.075988ms (0.379938)+(0.075988)=0.455925ms
So, I went from a 0.0038 second offset (stock) to a 0.0046 second offset at 14V.
I did it in my SD tune too, which is working fine. It's a little rich down low because I have yet to dial in that part of the VE table. If I'm in decel, I'm into DFCO after 3 seconds. So, it's not too big of a deal. What I did notice after the change was my WOT AFR lean out a little. It wanted more fuel with the new offsets. So, I made the adjustment and my butt dyno says it's better.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
If your tunning using the VE method with a modified OS then who knows whats happening to the PW values. I would go back to my earlier assumption that the injector size is to small for a factory cal.
You know I don't know why I do not specifically have that problem BTW. maybe something is very different in the software between your group and myself.
I had a car come to me about a week ago with the PE enable values set to zero at low TPS. I thought it was odd then i also noticed a few other odd offsets. I had to rework the Cal from scratch with a fresh GM flash. The car was tunned with LS1 edit do you think its possiable you could have a screwy or inccorect table format in the GUI ?
I am sure my memory locations are 100% correct BTW in the software I am using.
can you put the Bin file you where working with in a standard GM bin format ?
You know I don't know why I do not specifically have that problem BTW. maybe something is very different in the software between your group and myself.
I had a car come to me about a week ago with the PE enable values set to zero at low TPS. I thought it was odd then i also noticed a few other odd offsets. I had to rework the Cal from scratch with a fresh GM flash. The car was tunned with LS1 edit do you think its possiable you could have a screwy or inccorect table format in the GUI ?
I am sure my memory locations are 100% correct BTW in the software I am using.
can you put the Bin file you where working with in a standard GM bin format ?
Unfortunately, we don't have the capability to save in .bin format anymore. I think that was a result of the competitive bullsh!t that lies between the software vendors. We can still read .bin files. But, we can't save our tunes as .bin files and because of this, our effective knowledge base has been divided.
Too bad they (the software vendors) can't give us that functionality back...I know I'm not the only one who wants that back. 
BTW, I'm not trying to call BS on you not knowing why I see the reverse of what you do. But, I can assure you that I haven't made any ludacris changes like setting my PE enable to zero at low TP%. I try to apply logical changes based on my understanding of how the tables interact. Thanks to the generous amount of description coded into EFI Live, I'm able to understand those interactions.
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Send me what ya got Pm me for contact info. I should be able to import it.
I know how that goes. No blame here,just curiosity about potential software issues.Seen it a few times.
Well then start the email campaign. My take on it is that there are already to so many vendors out there and the information can be had if you know who to talk to there is really no point in the exclsivity of software providers anymore. Plus it would be nice to be able to cross communicate.
Thats of course assuming that EFI live is actually correct in there understanding of the code itself. its like the VE percentage thing. not really so easy to do considering all the variables that go into the Ve table calculation. I tried for the longest time to come up with a way to resolve the VE tables to its real elemtn Grs/Sec/cyl but came up empty.however the cranking Ve table is actually in Ve pecentages. wierd eh ?
You only work with what your given and I don not fualt anyone for that. Get me a copy of the file let me have a peak at what your doing.
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Well, I started from a stock file (we have lots for EFI Live at www.holdencrazy.com) when I tackled my car (SD w/ stock OS) since the old tune was 'jacked' to say the least. If I can't change an unseen table with my software, then the person I got the stock tune from couldn't see it either. So, I know I started from scratch.
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Unfortunately, we don't have the capability to save in .bin format anymore. I think that was a result of the competitive bullsh!t that lies between the software vendors. We can still read .bin files. But, we can't save our tunes as .bin files and because of this, our effective knowledge base has been divided. Too bad they (the software vendors) can't give us that functionality back...I know I'm not the only one who wants that back.
Too bad they (the software vendors) can't give us that functionality back...I know I'm not the only one who wants that back.
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
BTW, I'm not trying to call BS on you not knowing why I see the reverse of what you do. But, I can assure you that I haven't made any ludacris changes like setting my PE enable to zero at low TP%. I try to apply logical changes based on my understanding of how the tables interact. Thanks to the generous amount of description coded into EFI Live, I'm able to understand those interactions.
You only work with what your given and I don not fualt anyone for that. Get me a copy of the file let me have a peak at what your doing.
Last edited by LS1curious; Jun 14, 2007 at 09:55 AM.
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From: So.Cal.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
Yes the code must stay off list and be kept 100% confidential.IE do not share.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
there is a ton of stuff to shift through. If you can be patient its honestly gonna take about 2 weeks to dig all of it out. Its sort of all over the place in bit and pieces. . Damn code writers.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
As for the smart *** on the EFi live forums saying his Ve values were gonna be over 100%. Your gonna find out that the VE values aren't in percentages. They are Scalar Values
I know Paul knows it's not in percent.
Cheers
Joe
Last edited by joecar; Jun 14, 2007 at 11:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by LS1curious
You only work with what your given and I don not fualt anyone for that. Get me a copy of the file let me have a peak at what your doing.
For my attempt at your way, I was targeting an AFR of 15:1 for MAPs 20-65kPa, 14.75@70kPa, 14.5@75kPa, 14@80kPa, 13.5@85kPa, and 13:1 for 90-100kPa. For PE, I was targeting 12.6:1 across the board.
For my SD tune, what's commanded by the PCM is the target AFR and the WBO2 is within +/-2% more than 90% of the time.
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I can see here where this could be going wrong. Once i get a peak at the files i will know more.
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
Files sent...
For my attempt at your way, I was targeting an AFR of 15:1 for MAPs 20-65kPa, 14.75@70kPa, 14.5@75kPa, 14@80kPa, 13.5@85kPa, and 13:1 for 90-100kPa. For PE, I was targeting 12.6:1 across the board.
For my SD tune, what's commanded by the PCM is the target AFR and the WBO2 is within +/-2% more than 90% of the time.
For my attempt at your way, I was targeting an AFR of 15:1 for MAPs 20-65kPa, 14.75@70kPa, 14.5@75kPa, 14@80kPa, 13.5@85kPa, and 13:1 for 90-100kPa. For PE, I was targeting 12.6:1 across the board.
For my SD tune, what's commanded by the PCM is the target AFR and the WBO2 is within +/-2% more than 90% of the time.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
I can see here where this could be going wrong. Once i get a peak at the files i will know more.
I've read this whole thread several times, and it comes down to (for me) that we need proper values for aftermarket injectors BEFORE we can properly start tuning. I have the Ford SVO 42's. I understand wanting to keep some things secret (hard earned knowledge) but imagine how much better we would all be if we were starting out properly with the right values for the injectors. So with that being said I'm very curious what values we should be using......
For reference I've been using the ones posted on page 3 of this post https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...1&page=3&pp=40 since 2005.
For reference I've been using the ones posted on page 3 of this post https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...1&page=3&pp=40 since 2005.
Last edited by Viper; Jun 14, 2007 at 04:46 PM.
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treat em like 58-60pph injectors
Originally Posted by Viper
I've read this whole thread several times, and it comes down to (for me) that we need proper values for aftermarket injectors BEFORE we can properly start tuning. I have the Ford SVO 42's. I understand wanting to keep some things secret (hard earned knowledge) but imagine how much better we would all be if we were starting out properly with the right values for the injectors. So with that being said I'm very curious what values we should be using......
For reference I've been using the ones posted on page 3 of this post https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...1&page=3&pp=40 since 2005.
For reference I've been using the ones posted on page 3 of this post https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...1&page=3&pp=40 since 2005.
So just use the spreadsheet (all that 95% of us have access to) and plug in 58 at 43.5psi?
And Marcin, your overdue for a new post on your blog, love reading it!
And Marcin, your overdue for a new post on your blog, love reading it!
Last edited by Viper; Jun 14, 2007 at 05:18 PM.
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yeah basically. I usually recomend using actual siemnes decka injectors becuase there are actual ratings for them out there. Honeslty the avg head cam car could run the 32pph injectors found on the new ls2 and run with stock ls2 injector variables. aside from the issue with hieght and plug its a nice cheap proven injector. and the flow data is accurate
Originally Posted by Viper
So just use the spreadsheet (all that 95% of us have access to) and plug in 58 at 43.5psi?
Thanks, it may be worth it to try the LS2 injectors as it's one thing to have the right values for flow rate vs kpa, but the offsets are an unknown as are default injector pulsewidth and minimum pulsewidth's for the SVO 42's. I used the 3 table values from a 2002 Z06 but they don't match up properly to a SVO 42.
"aside from the issue with hieght and plug its a nice cheap proven injector"
What is the issue, will they fit in my 99 fuel rail? LS6 intake?
"aside from the issue with hieght and plug its a nice cheap proven injector"
What is the issue, will they fit in my 99 fuel rail? LS6 intake?
Last edited by Viper; Jun 14, 2007 at 05:27 PM.
Probably old news to most, but to adapt the LS2 injectors you need these (2nd from bottom) http://www.katechengines.com/street_...tail.php?id=21
and ls2 fuel rails.
and ls2 fuel rails.
This is me in the photo and what I am thinking regarding the conversation.
Going back to page 1, Why would my MAF Airflow not be effected when I do the special mult with the AFR Error? Below 5000 or 6000 hz it changes nicely, above those does no good.
To be tuning or "dialing in" the MAF at 6k hz and up when at WOT should the MAF Airflow vs Output Freq be changed or does the VE or PE dial it in?
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the ls2/ls1 has differing mechanical and electrical properties. more akin to what the code was written to control. Those are also a much higher PW precision event to event then the lazzy and slow SVo injectors.
Originally Posted by Viper
Thanks, it may be worth it to try the LS2 injectors as it's one thing to have the right values for flow rate vs kpa, but the offsets are an unknown as are default injector pulsewidth and minimum pulsewidth's for the SVO 42's. I used the 3 table values from a 2002 Z06 but they don't match up properly to a SVO 42.
"aside from the issue with hieght and plug its a nice cheap proven injector"
What is the issue, will they fit in my 99 fuel rail? LS6 intake?
"aside from the issue with hieght and plug its a nice cheap proven injector"
What is the issue, will they fit in my 99 fuel rail? LS6 intake?
