9 Widebands Tested within, Innovate wins accuracy
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
#21
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I wrote dynojet an email. I will copy and past. You gotta read bottom up.
Quote:
You're correct, sensor accuracy / error is very critical, that's why over 4500 Dynojet dynos all over the world use the same technology that's incorporated in the WBC. We make a living manufacturing and selling dynos and power enhancement devices (ie. Power Commanders), and each one of these systems / devices relies on accurate AFR readings. The sensor that most company's use is the same family of sensor that we've used since 1997, so we have years of testing and confidence in our product.
I will agree that a shortcoming of the WBC is that there isn't a way to diagnose the sensor integrity. When used with unleaded fuel, the sensor is designed (by Bosch) to provide years of trouble free, accurate readings. We do allow the end user to "calibrate the sensor", in fact, the only way to do this is to remove the "trim / cal resistor" and allow the software to "skew", or compensate for a sensor that is reading incorrectly or failing. It's best to replace the sensor at a service interval that makes sense based on your driving style and application. I personally have supercharged and turbocharged vehicles, and as a matter of habit, I'll change the sensor every 12k miles or yearly, whatever comes first.
I'll check into the latency of the 0-5v output for data acquisition purposes. This test indicated the 0-5v analog output, which you would use to send the signal to a separate device (datalogger, etc etc), had a latency of 500ms. I've posed this question to our engineering group to see if they have any feedback.
Regards,
Dan Hourigan
From: dewmanshu [mailto:dewmanshu@deweygibson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:04 PM
To: tech@widebandcommander.com
Cc: dewey@bowenelectric.net
Subject: comparing different widebands
You guys have any input on this article by FordMuscle Magazine?
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php
I have owned your wideband for almost 2 years and I gotta say, that data depresses me. Nothing in the world would bother me more when it comes to tuning my truck than an error adjustment on my wideband. That could cause me to blow my motor. I am not bitching, too much, but curious what your take is.
Please respond “to all” so I can get this at work as well.
Dewey Gibson
Quote:
Thanks for passing this along Dewey, we appreciate it. I wasn't aware of this test, and I am a little concerned with the outcome myself. I can guarantee you that when we perform random sampling with "calibrated gas" (13.083 AFR petrol / .89 lambda), the sensor included with each WBC is +/- .05 AFR. Bosch actually "calibrates" each and every sensor that goes out the door, the critical "trim / cal resistor" value is actually unique to each sensor. Since we only perform random sampling on the sensor, we are actually relying of Bosch's QC measures, and to be frank, they're quite good at what they do.
You're correct, sensor accuracy / error is very critical, that's why over 4500 Dynojet dynos all over the world use the same technology that's incorporated in the WBC. We make a living manufacturing and selling dynos and power enhancement devices (ie. Power Commanders), and each one of these systems / devices relies on accurate AFR readings. The sensor that most company's use is the same family of sensor that we've used since 1997, so we have years of testing and confidence in our product.
I will agree that a shortcoming of the WBC is that there isn't a way to diagnose the sensor integrity. When used with unleaded fuel, the sensor is designed (by Bosch) to provide years of trouble free, accurate readings. We do allow the end user to "calibrate the sensor", in fact, the only way to do this is to remove the "trim / cal resistor" and allow the software to "skew", or compensate for a sensor that is reading incorrectly or failing. It's best to replace the sensor at a service interval that makes sense based on your driving style and application. I personally have supercharged and turbocharged vehicles, and as a matter of habit, I'll change the sensor every 12k miles or yearly, whatever comes first.
I'll check into the latency of the 0-5v output for data acquisition purposes. This test indicated the 0-5v analog output, which you would use to send the signal to a separate device (datalogger, etc etc), had a latency of 500ms. I've posed this question to our engineering group to see if they have any feedback.
Regards,
Dan Hourigan
Vice President
Dynojet Research Inc.
Dynojet Research Inc.
From: dewmanshu [mailto:dewmanshu@deweygibson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:04 PM
To: tech@widebandcommander.com
Cc: dewey@bowenelectric.net
Subject: comparing different widebands
You guys have any input on this article by FordMuscle Magazine?
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php
I have owned your wideband for almost 2 years and I gotta say, that data depresses me. Nothing in the world would bother me more when it comes to tuning my truck than an error adjustment on my wideband. That could cause me to blow my motor. I am not bitching, too much, but curious what your take is.
Please respond “to all” so I can get this at work as well.
Dewey Gibson
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
#22
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more response
Quote:
Dan Hourigan
Vice President
Dynojet Research Inc.
From: Dewey Gibson [mailto:dewey@bowenelectric.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'Danny Hourigan'; 'Dewey (home) Gibson'
Subject: RE: comparing different widebands
Dan,
I appreciate your response, as I know that you know (Saturday Night skit in the working there) your response, be it good or bad is very important. I will pass your response on to fellow performance colleagues and forum moderators if you don’t mind. I am a moderator on performancetrucks.net and I can tell you, wideband units are a common topic. Ground offset being a HUGE factor in my opinion. I certainly agree, Bosch QC appears to be good at what they call a profession. If you’re interested, a link to a thread on our forum is here LINKY or http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=395805 I am sure, knowing the forum world, this article is running every where by now, and to be honest, your product’s pricing not being favorable-I’d imagine this article isn’t going to do your sales much good. Quiet frankly, not to kiss ***, but I like your software (ease of) and instructions are pretty simple and detailed. I’d only ask that your controller wouldn’t close the relay when it’s powered down.
Thanks again,
Dewey Gibson
Quote:
That's fine, feel free to share this with your colleagues and forum moderators. You're right, when passing the data via the 0-5v output, the potential creating a ground offset is critical. I've had plenty of SCT Xcal2 owners notice a .2-.3 difference because of the ground offset, but the HPT device seems to be spot on. It is very important to make sure the WBC software and datalogs match the 3rd party device datalogs.
Normally you can find the WBC for $429, as that's the minimum advertised price. I really do think, even to this day, that we offer more "bang for the buck" with all of the features that we offer.
WBC v2.0 is on the horizon (SEMA), and it will be a rather low cost wideband controller with a 0-5v and CAN output ($200-$250). The 0-5v could be sent out to a data acquisition device, or even drive a low cost gauge. The other option, which really blows open the possibilities, is to send the CAN output to this:
powercommander 3 usb(non sposnor link removed)
This thing is $300 and opens a lot of doors for us. It's geared towards the Powercommander line of products, as it allows you to store fuel maps, upload the maps to the Powercommander, as well as datalog the various channels that are tied into the system. We do plan on developing a specific version of software for the LCD display that's more "WBC v2.0 friendly", so that will be cool.
Regards,
----------------
Normally you can find the WBC for $429, as that's the minimum advertised price. I really do think, even to this day, that we offer more "bang for the buck" with all of the features that we offer.
WBC v2.0 is on the horizon (SEMA), and it will be a rather low cost wideband controller with a 0-5v and CAN output ($200-$250). The 0-5v could be sent out to a data acquisition device, or even drive a low cost gauge. The other option, which really blows open the possibilities, is to send the CAN output to this:
powercommander 3 usb(non sposnor link removed)
This thing is $300 and opens a lot of doors for us. It's geared towards the Powercommander line of products, as it allows you to store fuel maps, upload the maps to the Powercommander, as well as datalog the various channels that are tied into the system. We do plan on developing a specific version of software for the LCD display that's more "WBC v2.0 friendly", so that will be cool.
Regards,
----------------
Dan Hourigan
Vice President
Dynojet Research Inc.
From: Dewey Gibson [mailto:dewey@bowenelectric.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:32 AM
To: 'Danny Hourigan'; 'Dewey (home) Gibson'
Subject: RE: comparing different widebands
Dan,
I appreciate your response, as I know that you know (Saturday Night skit in the working there) your response, be it good or bad is very important. I will pass your response on to fellow performance colleagues and forum moderators if you don’t mind. I am a moderator on performancetrucks.net and I can tell you, wideband units are a common topic. Ground offset being a HUGE factor in my opinion. I certainly agree, Bosch QC appears to be good at what they call a profession. If you’re interested, a link to a thread on our forum is here LINKY or http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=395805 I am sure, knowing the forum world, this article is running every where by now, and to be honest, your product’s pricing not being favorable-I’d imagine this article isn’t going to do your sales much good. Quiet frankly, not to kiss ***, but I like your software (ease of) and instructions are pretty simple and detailed. I’d only ask that your controller wouldn’t close the relay when it’s powered down.
Thanks again,
Dewey Gibson
07-02-2007, 09:45 PM
#23
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and....
Quote:
Dewey, one thing I just learned about the "latency"..............
"We have an averaging function of air-fuel that is software selectable. We have a default averaging set so that the gauge does not bounce around. Averaging to signal from sensor then sent to gauge and 0-5 v out. Lowering the averaging number lowers the delay to almost nothing on all outputs.
I don't have the software in front of me, but I believe there is a setting called "sensitivity", and according to the engineers, that setting effects both the gauge latency, as well as the 0-5v output.
Hope this helps,
__________________
Quote:
Dewey, one thing I just learned about the "latency"..............
"We have an averaging function of air-fuel that is software selectable. We have a default averaging set so that the gauge does not bounce around. Averaging to signal from sensor then sent to gauge and 0-5 v out. Lowering the averaging number lowers the delay to almost nothing on all outputs.
I don't have the software in front of me, but I believe there is a setting called "sensitivity", and according to the engineers, that setting effects both the gauge latency, as well as the 0-5v output.
Hope this helps,
----------------
Dan Hourigan
Dan Hourigan
__________________
07-02-2007, 10:03 PM
#25
The problem with cal against the Bosch's factory resistor is that the WB O2 drifts from the factory cal (all of them do this over time), and if an independent free-air cal cannot be made, it's accuracy will drift with the sensor. I know that the Innovate products can be cal'd in fresh air, so I guess they are "looking around" the factory's cal resistor through programming via one approach or another... FWIW
