pcm tuning software is overpriced
Tuning software is a tool.
Like all tools, you get what you pay for.
Coverage, Tech Support, Starter Files (if the company offers them), Live Training, A real facility, (dyno, tech support, engineering) all costs money.
I work for a tuning company, and we have quite a few people involved in the operation, we cannot afford to give software away, and cover overhead on such an organization. All companies are not just people on the internet making software
Ryan
Ryan
Like all tools, you get what you pay for.
Coverage, Tech Support, Starter Files (if the company offers them), Live Training, A real facility, (dyno, tech support, engineering) all costs money.
I work for a tuning company, and we have quite a few people involved in the operation, we cannot afford to give software away, and cover overhead on such an organization. All companies are not just people on the internet making software
Ryan
Ryan
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
actually...duumas...when you work for a shop and your not the owner or manager, you dont care what the software cost. you do what your told and dont ask questions. and i will retract my previous statement about tuning all kinds of "stuff." most of the vehicles our shop tuned used there own op systems, such as fast's efi, and accels dfi. also done a couple of deisels using bullydogs systems. the suzuki motorcycles are done with a homemade cable connector and a ecm flash that is downloadable. (suzuki is the only ecm you can flash, the rest you have to send it off. )
Software does cost money to write and support. But the true reason is supply and demand. They have found a price that some are willing to pay, and that is what they charge. (Notice how all of them are around the same price, that is not an accident.) If they lowered the price, volume would increase, but profits would not, because profit per piece (software package sold) would decrease.
Is it the true cost plus some reasonable profit? Of course not, the profit is huge, especially after startup costs. At the beginning, the profit is not there, because they have to recover development costs. But afterwards, profit ramps up and stays up, because the startup costs have been recovered.
Does it go down after time, like all other technologies when they mature? Of course not, they are making money hand over fist. Why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Do I know what I am talking about? Yes, I write software for a living. The owners make lots of money, and I stay employed. Win-win, AFAIAC.
Deal with it, you have no choice.
Is it the true cost plus some reasonable profit? Of course not, the profit is huge, especially after startup costs. At the beginning, the profit is not there, because they have to recover development costs. But afterwards, profit ramps up and stays up, because the startup costs have been recovered.
Does it go down after time, like all other technologies when they mature? Of course not, they are making money hand over fist. Why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Do I know what I am talking about? Yes, I write software for a living. The owners make lots of money, and I stay employed. Win-win, AFAIAC.
Deal with it, you have no choice.
Software does cost money to write and support. But the true reason is supply and demand. They have found a price that some are willing to pay, and that is what they charge. (Notice how all of them are around the same price, that is not an accident.) If they lowered the price, volume would increase, but profits would not, because profit per piece (software package sold) would decrease.
Is it the true cost plus some reasonable profit? Of course not, the profit is huge, especially after startup costs. At the beginning, the profit is not there, because they have to recover development costs. But afterwards, profit ramps up and stays up, because the startup costs have been recovered.
Does it go down after time, like all other technologies when they mature? Of course not, they are making money hand over fist. Why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Do I know what I am talking about? Yes, I write software for a living. The owners make lots of money, and I stay employed. Win-win, AFAIAC.
Deal with it, you have no choice.
Is it the true cost plus some reasonable profit? Of course not, the profit is huge, especially after startup costs. At the beginning, the profit is not there, because they have to recover development costs. But afterwards, profit ramps up and stays up, because the startup costs have been recovered.
Does it go down after time, like all other technologies when they mature? Of course not, they are making money hand over fist. Why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Do I know what I am talking about? Yes, I write software for a living. The owners make lots of money, and I stay employed. Win-win, AFAIAC.
Deal with it, you have no choice.
I'm not saying its not profitable for the owners, if it wasnt they wouldnt be doing it. Are they making a killing? I guess that would be based on what you think a killing is. Is it fair priced? I think so, for the quality of the product.
Your comment is noted, however:
They do not write new software. They take what they have and update/change/modify it. They do not re-invent the wheel. An ECM (or in GM-speak, a PCM) is merely a computer. It has instructions, inputs, and outputs. Sensors talk, sensors listen. Even the transmission can be thought of as a sensor, if you get far enough into it. Pretty basic, once you dig deep enough.
The hardware stays pretty much the same. My OBDII connector on my AutoTap, for example, will hook up to a GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. The software is all that changes.
AFA a fair price, well, I maintain that they charge what the market will bear.
They do not write new software. They take what they have and update/change/modify it. They do not re-invent the wheel. An ECM (or in GM-speak, a PCM) is merely a computer. It has instructions, inputs, and outputs. Sensors talk, sensors listen. Even the transmission can be thought of as a sensor, if you get far enough into it. Pretty basic, once you dig deep enough.
The hardware stays pretty much the same. My OBDII connector on my AutoTap, for example, will hook up to a GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. The software is all that changes.
AFA a fair price, well, I maintain that they charge what the market will bear.
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Verdad Gallardo Your comment is noted, however:
They do not write new software. They take what they have and update/change/modify it. They do not re-invent the wheel. An ECM (or in GM-speak, a PCM) is merely a computer. It has instructions, inputs, and outputs. Sensors talk, sensors listen. Even the transmission can be thought of as a sensor, if you get far enough into it. Pretty basic, once you dig deep enough.
The hardware stays pretty much the same. My OBDII connector on my AutoTap, for example, will hook up to a GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. The software is all that changes.
AFA a fair price, well, I maintain that they charge what the market will bear.
They do not write new software. They take what they have and update/change/modify it. They do not re-invent the wheel. An ECM (or in GM-speak, a PCM) is merely a computer. It has instructions, inputs, and outputs. Sensors talk, sensors listen. Even the transmission can be thought of as a sensor, if you get far enough into it. Pretty basic, once you dig deep enough.
The hardware stays pretty much the same. My OBDII connector on my AutoTap, for example, will hook up to a GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. The software is all that changes.
AFA a fair price, well, I maintain that they charge what the market will bear.
And they do have to continuously keep up. I personally have had to contact HPT and ask for a parameter to be installed in their software that wasnt there, but was in the PCM, just not accessible.
And yes you are correct. Its part supply and demand. They charge what the market will bear, same as any other product or company.
I agree with the spirit of your reply. However, CAN (Controller Area Network) can be thought of as a super-OBDII, which is merely the serial interface. The underlying software messaging remains basically the same. As far as cracking the code, I suggest that they follow industry standards for data bus communications, which is not encrypted, so all that is required is to understand the protocol and the messages. The knowledge that is needed is how the tweaks affect the overall performance of the engine and the vehicle. There are many messages sent across the bus, so they may miss something, which is why you had to ask for a particular message.
AFA support for fbodies, well, ours are carved in stone. One should expect that the price of our software would start to go down in price. But you suggest that we continue to pay for development for future products. IDK, sounds a bit silly to me. But I have paid my price and own my tuning software. I am just thinking of those wanting to get into the game and wondering why the price of admission remains so high.
AFA support for fbodies, well, ours are carved in stone. One should expect that the price of our software would start to go down in price. But you suggest that we continue to pay for development for future products. IDK, sounds a bit silly to me. But I have paid my price and own my tuning software. I am just thinking of those wanting to get into the game and wondering why the price of admission remains so high.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
the only thing i have a problem with is you have to pay 600 bucks just for the software...and then in order to keep using it you have to pay more money. if you change vehicles every year your eventually gonna have to pay for more credits or whatever the company has. i dont mind if you go from say cheby to ford or completely change manufacturers. but if you stay with gm you shouldnt have to pay extra money all the time. some thing with diagnostics software. so over priced it ridiculous and you have to have a different cd for every vehicle. and if you dont pay to update the cd every quarter then you lose all access. even on the old ones you already paid for (im talking about shop key i dont know about others) personally i think it falls under the category of raccettering (or however you spell that) just my opinion
One thing also to factor in for the price you are paying is an AWSOME scan tool that is better than any handheld would be for the engine pcm.
In a shop environment i would never use anything else. Plus you get to use it on anything they support with no extra costs or licencing... I would much rather pay $750ish for software/scan tool than $3000 for a gm one... $750 is alot easier to swallow if it gets lost or stolen also...
In a shop environment i would never use anything else. Plus you get to use it on anything they support with no extra costs or licencing... I would much rather pay $750ish for software/scan tool than $3000 for a gm one... $750 is alot easier to swallow if it gets lost or stolen also...
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
well with hptuners you have to pay for credits and with efi live you have to pay 100 per vehicle type or somethin like that i think...i would much rather be able to pay 3 grand and do em all...but thats just my opnion
the only thing i have a problem with is you have to pay 600 bucks just for the software...and then in order to keep using it you have to pay more money. if you change vehicles every year your eventually gonna have to pay for more credits or whatever the company has. i dont mind if you go from say cheby to ford or completely change manufacturers. but if you stay with gm you shouldnt have to pay extra money all the time. some thing with diagnostics software. so over priced it ridiculous and you have to have a different cd for every vehicle. and if you dont pay to update the cd every quarter then you lose all access. even on the old ones you already paid for (im talking about shop key i dont know about others) personally i think it falls under the category of raccettering (or however you spell that) just my opinion
The price of tuning is small change compared to the cost of changing vehicles every year then modding them to the point they need a new tune.
To help offset the outragouse cost of tunning software, you could always make a carburator one of your mods
Then buy EFILive and spend 2300 on the stream of your choice to do unlimited ECM's and TCM's for that group. You made a mention of if you change vehicles every year, you will continue to have to pay for licenses ($99) for each one. I would think that if you can afford to get a new vehicle every year, you could afford a measly $99 each year. And with EFILive, with each license purchase, 80% of that goes towards a nice discount of any stream you want.
Would rather spend 500-700 bucks and tune whatever I own forever, than pay 500 or so for 1 dynotune done by a shop that may last me a few months before I do another mod ;\
Plus all of the other benefits with owning the software.
Plus all of the other benefits with owning the software.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
To help offset the outragouse cost of tunning software, you could always make a carburator one of your mods [/QUOTE]
lol good one. i understand that it is relatively cheap. its the principle of the matter im talking about. i for one dont change cars every year...(every 2 maybe lo) but its all good. im gonna get efilive i think though i saw it in action the other day and its pretty sweet. ,
[/QUOTE]lol good one. i understand that it is relatively cheap. its the principle of the matter im talking about. i for one dont change cars every year...(every 2 maybe lo) but its all good. im gonna get efilive i think though i saw it in action the other day and its pretty sweet. ,
When I look back now.... and look at how much its cost me to tune my own car...
HP Tuners: $500
Wideband: $450 installed
Time: LOTS OF TIME learning to tune...
It still comes out worth it.....simply because you get a MUCH bigger satisfaction out of tuning the car yourself.... taking it for a spin and feeling what a differnce YOU made.
Then when you start talking to people at the track and you tell them that you've tuned your car yourself.... the look of bewilderment on their face is pretty satisfying.
And you get the added bonus that noone can bullshit you when it comes to tuning cars.
HP Tuners: $500
Wideband: $450 installed
Time: LOTS OF TIME learning to tune...
It still comes out worth it.....simply because you get a MUCH bigger satisfaction out of tuning the car yourself.... taking it for a spin and feeling what a differnce YOU made.
Then when you start talking to people at the track and you tell them that you've tuned your car yourself.... the look of bewilderment on their face is pretty satisfying.
And you get the added bonus that noone can bullshit you when it comes to tuning cars.