Firehawk 182

I have been looking at various threads on different forums and wanted to make a few comments. When I read some that were from 2007 it was all pretty speculative since the cars were only 5 years out of production...but here we are 15 years after the last TAs. First off I think we are at or near the bottom of depreciation so NOW is the time to see where the 4th Gen cars go from here. I bought a '02 Firehawk Vert several months ago and have learned one thing...not many people outside of the Pontiac guys know or care about these cars right now. I never even considered one a year ago so more people like me need to wake up and become buyers for prices to start moving up. The Supply is decently low on some models so demand must increase. No offense to the CETA guys but 2000 yellow cars that are almost all alike is alotta cars on the aftermarket. They will take over 25 years to see strong sales just like the 89TTA which only recently a few sold for over original sticker. Just my thoughts...high HP convertibles have historically been very collectible, the WS6 is the most Macho looking car ever produced so it will continue to have a decent following but not really rare..yet. Hardly ever mentioned in these threads is the plain fact that musclecars are back and the entire market gets diluted with more places to put your money. I personally like to drive a car that I don't see 10 of every day...at this point that's just about ANY Firebird.

2QuikTA

I don't think 4th gens will ever reach the collectivity of the 60's/70's cars. The era is just too bland. There wasn't some cool engine options, you got a v6 or a v8. There are no special options like factory air. No stripe/no stripe options. No interior color choice. A 2000 TA is a 2000 TA, is a 2000 TA. Of course the SS/WS6 will still sell for a premium.

The only 4th gens I see with maybe some ok appreciation are low mile special editions, but not all. Pace cars, intimidators, ligenfelter/ect, and 30th TA's. Maybe original super low mile '02 firebirds.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree completely. Even the "special edition" examples, such as CETA cars, are just a paint color and decal kit beyond being a regular WS6, and the WS6 is a hood, wheels and some other minor pieces beyond being a base Trans Am, and a base Trans Am is just a front/rear bumper cover and spoiler away from being a Formula. No performance difference between any of them, and not much optional content available to create truly special examples. No reason to pay exponentially more for a higher trim model when it's just cosmetics; they certainly do/will bring more cash than the base V8 cars but not the stupid money of special-engined original era muscle cars.

Granted, something like a fully optioned Firehawk model does offer slightly better performance than a base V8 counterpart, but it's nothing like the jump from base V8 performance cars of the '60s/early '70s to their high end, big cube engine optioned counterparts.

Also, there was no watershed total-collapse-of-performance moment immediately after the 4th gens were built, unlike the original muscle car era. Factory stock cars since the 4th gen have just kept getting more powerful and faster. One of the things propping up 4th gen value now is the fact that these newer performance cars are very expensive and quite heavy, so nice 4th gens remain desirable for their still-respectable stock performance and ease of modability (as good candidates to be easily competitive with many modern performance cars for less money), but they do not represent a dramatic and long term "end of performance" era.

I don't know that there will ever be high quality restoration parts available for the 4th gens (this is a current problem for the 3rd gens), so that will limit the amount of used up/junk cars that can ever become top tier nut-and-bolt restoration examples. This keeps potential prices down for the rough examples, which is one factor in limiting overall price inflation across the entire condition scope of the model.

Some of the big money Pontiac collectors look down on everything Firebird that's newer than 1979/400ci. So that's more potential value lost or limited.

Overall, I don't think you'll lose money on a nice LS1 T/A, especially a WS6, in the near term - but in the long term I definitely wouldn't count on it as a retirement fund or source of big future profits that exceed more conventional investments over the same period. Ultimately, the "right" factors just aren't present for any of these factory 4th gens to become the next Hemi Cuda, etc.

Firehawk 182

Everything you said here is spot on. I can't see any reasons for prices taking huge leaps...ever, just premiums for higher optioned cars. Great time to find a super nice condition car in the 10-15K range and DRIVE it . If gas prices had gone to 4-5 before the second wave of Mustang/Camaro/Challenger had come along then it would have been a different story...similar to 1972. I remind people all the time that a new loaded Prius is worth more than most cool used sports cars...

silverformula

I agree, but I would rather drive a used sports car than a new Prius.


The reason I bought a Firebird is not because of re-sale value but because I like the looks of a Firebird and the how it handles but most of a all, I like the second looks even the stares I get from other people when I drive the car around.

Yamerhaw

I know a local guy, he's always buys and sells high end fast cars, muscle cars, etc at Barrett Jackson.. I asked him the same thing, he said they absolutely will be as collectible as older gen firebirds, especially all original special editions and low mileage 2002's because that was the last year they were built but didn't seem to think the yellow 02 WS6's would bring a lot more than the other colors because they made so many of them , he may be wrong, I don't know but he knows cars and has a mind blowing collection, but from what I've seen personally the low mileage , stock 98-02 WS6's are climbing in value now

y2k_ta

iTrader: (80)

Good point. The "corporate" powered Pontiacs still get a lot of flack among the self-proclaimed die-hard Pontiac folks. Many turn their noses up at any Pontiac that isn't Pontiac-powered. The post-'81 cars get the brunt of this even though Olds engines were used in some late-70's 'birds and even Chevrolet engines were factory equipment in Candian-market Pontiacs up through the mid-60's. The last few years of the brand's life saw Pontiacs come with Chevrolet (Formula, Trans Am, GTO, G8), Oldsmobile (anything with a Quad 4), Toyota (Pontiac Vibe) and Daewoo (Pontiac G3) engines. I'm a member of POCI, and this is always a topic of discussion. It's an orphaned brand now, so there will never be more than what we already have available now. I apologize for straying off-topic

Ironically, my first car was an '82 Chevrolet Citation with Pontiac "Iron Duke" power

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

For all the reasons listed above, I definitely don't agree with him. All of this is just speculation, but the factors aren't present that would likely be required to get top-tier SD-455 type money out of a comparable condition '02 WS6. But if he is certain about his belief to the contrary, then he should probably start buying up low mile WS6s now for future profits.

Value has been pretty flat on these cars for the last few years from what I've seen. I don't see much significant climbing at all, but not any loss either. These cars will always have value as they age, like any special interest/performance car with a following but, again, they are not future Hemi Cudas or something such as this.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Exactly. Only the very rare RPO combinations, like Formula WS6 models, will appreciate greatly in value.

Or, the super-rare combos, like this one: https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...m-factory.html

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Most definitely! That car is clearly headed for 6-figure territory (but I won't comment on where the decimal point will fall within those six figures.)

madmike9396

iTrader: (29)

Eventually a nice mint all factory SS or WS6 will bring good $ in years to come. IMO

Kevin Lee 487

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't say "collectible", but they'll definitely remain a highly popular performance car with a constant demand.

eseibel67

iTrader: (10)

Check the history books. In my formative automotive years (1980's) a Bandit Trans Am even in good condition was just a used up daily POS. I would have never thought of it being collectible, even when the 1960's cars were already starting to appreciate. Look at them now.

When a consumer plunks down his hard earned bucks on a new car, it has to give him some utility so the majority of them are equipped with an auto trans and the standard engine.

Now, when the car gets into the collectible age (20+ years), the car will serve duty as a Sunday joy rider and practicality give way to motoring pleasure. This is the reason that collectibles are in short supply and high demand when they are configured with optional engines, manual transmission, and a removable top. If you have one in this configuration and it's in great condition, expect the value to rise. Not like a Hemi 'Cuda or a Stage 1 GS Buick, but there will market demand for a simple, solid performer.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Those late 2nd gen Trans Ams that are of particularly high value are the 400ci/W72 Pontiac engined examples. This was the last cry for true Pontiac performance and lineage direct from the original muscle car era....a lone holdout. The same car with a 4.9L, even though it's still Pontiac power, is not favored in the high dollar collectible crowd. Even still, only very few examples of these late 2nd gens have brought the kind of money that a 455/SD-455 example would bring from the early '70s in comparable condition.

Thing about LS1 4th gens is that there wasn't any optional engine. Just different factory ratings, for the same V8, that mean nothing at all (other than the slight actual bump in performance from the 330/335/345hp package SLP cars - but that's just factory bolt-ons and obviously not a different engine, trans or rear) to the folks who actually know these cars.

As for transmissions options, A4 vs. M6 production was about 60/40 on the V8 models. But at this point it's actually a bit harder to find low mile/nice A4 examples since so many were daily drivers, whereas many of the M6 cars were weekend toys from day one....though the M6 still commands more money due to demand. There was only one manual and one auto available though, and no axle upgrade option, so again, the higher trim level cars are just some cosmetic elements beyond being a base V8 Formula. The aura and exclusivity of a hot, rare, special factory V8 (and matching heavy-duty drivetrain) that stands worlds apart from the garden variety entry-level performance engines of the same model is a situation in which the LS1 F-bodies do not partake.

I agree there will be demand and value in the foreseeable future for LS1 4th gens, but nothing comparable to what usually comes to mind in the world of premium collectible early muscle cars.

AronZ28

iTrader: (2)

I think the values for our 4th gen cars, the stock, unmolested, very clean and original low mile ones will continue to hold or slightly increase for the 5-10 years or so. IE you can buy a 2000 Trans Am WS6 with 30k miles today for 10-15k, keep it garaged, waxed, and put 10-15k miles on it and sell it for the same 10-15k 3 or 4 years from now.

TAvsGN

A couple cars that come to mind after reading this thread, and ones that are on my wish list, are the Comp T/A's and the Blackbird T/A's. You rarely see these for sale, at least I don't. I am wondering, especially in the Blackbird case, if these could eventually be somewhat comparable to the Yenko type cars from the late 60's?

mac62989

iTrader: (1)

^Did Blackbird cars have significant performance upgrades over your standard 4th Gen?

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Yea, but the price will never go above sticker, so it would still not be a good investment.

What I really wished I had done is purchased a brand new Yugo and kept that pristine and in a hermetically sealed bubble. Jay Lenno will come knocking for one of those pretty soon...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

GMMG/Berger stuff is (and will be) desirable to collectors, but these cars weren't cheap in the first place so it's a gamble on whether or not they will ever have the demand to grow (beyond inflation) significantly higher in value. LT4 Firehawk/SS would also be included in this, but not really the Comp T/A as it's missing any meaningful performance upgrades.

Firehawk 182

All WS6 cars are fairly common except maybe some with all options. 92 Firehawks are mega rare, already up there in value...LT4s and Comp TAs already recognized for being scarce...LS1 Formula Firehawks rare but stripped down cars without TA options OK if that's what you're after. LS1 Firehawk Convertibles are rare enough , less than 300 in the 4 years of production. Most are Black Red and Blue..the other colors are only handfuls.