Setting up car for Road/street. Help
07-23-2009, 08:22 AM
#1
Setting up car for Road/street. Help 2002 M6 SS
I'm about to drop cash on the ride but need some advice on where to direct the money. Currently I have full bolt-ons
I am planning on getting a
1. Moser 12 bolt
2. Beef up trans w/1A package
3. Baer 6P calipers or Zo6 Conversion setup
front and rear sway bars
Here are my questions:
Do I need to get a transmission cooler?
I already have the Baer Eradispeed Plus on front and Baer Decelarotor in rear I was hoping to just get a better 6piston caliper but not sure what route to go?
I have 90% suspension mods but was wondering if the SLP front/rear swaybars were equivalent to one offered by aftermarket options?
MODS
Spec Stage 3+ Clutch Billet Aluminum Flywheel
3.73 gears
adj. Master cylinder
new Slave cylinder
Suspension:
Budnik Fontanna Fatlip 18 x 10.5 Rear, 18 x 9.5 front Billet aluminum wheels
Bilstein shocks
BMR adjustable Chrome moly- LCA and brackets
BMR adjustable Chrome moly Panhard
BMR Shock Tower Brace
BMR Weld-in Sub frame Connectors
Baer Eradispeed 3 (2-piece) front rotors
Eradispeed (Single piece) rear rotors
Eibach Sportline springs
I'm about to drop cash on the ride but need some advice on where to direct the money. Currently I have full bolt-ons
I am planning on getting a
1. Moser 12 bolt
2. Beef up trans w/1A package
3. Baer 6P calipers or Zo6 Conversion setup
front and rear sway bars
Here are my questions:
Do I need to get a transmission cooler?
I already have the Baer Eradispeed Plus on front and Baer Decelarotor in rear I was hoping to just get a better 6piston caliper but not sure what route to go?
I have 90% suspension mods but was wondering if the SLP front/rear swaybars were equivalent to one offered by aftermarket options?
MODS
Spec Stage 3+ Clutch Billet Aluminum Flywheel
3.73 gears
adj. Master cylinder
new Slave cylinder
Suspension:
Budnik Fontanna Fatlip 18 x 10.5 Rear, 18 x 9.5 front Billet aluminum wheels
Bilstein shocks
BMR adjustable Chrome moly- LCA and brackets
BMR adjustable Chrome moly Panhard
BMR Shock Tower Brace
BMR Weld-in Sub frame Connectors
Baer Eradispeed 3 (2-piece) front rotors
Eradispeed (Single piece) rear rotors
Eibach Sportline springs
Last edited by Blackfly; 07-23-2009 at 11:04 AM.
07-23-2009, 09:57 AM
#2
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Is this for a 4th gen, or the 5th gen in your sig? I'm assuming 4th gen, since you said 12 bolt.
You don't need the 6-piston or Z06 brakes. At least, not C6 Z06. C5 Corvette brakes or the CTS-V will be all you could want - unless you plan on racing in the 24 Hours of LeMans.
What's the "trans 1A package"?
I think that the SLP swaybars are 32f and 21r. The most popular I think is 35 hollow up front and 21 hollow rear. It's what I run on my racecar.
You don't need the 6-piston or Z06 brakes. At least, not C6 Z06. C5 Corvette brakes or the CTS-V will be all you could want - unless you plan on racing in the 24 Hours of LeMans.
What's the "trans 1A package"?
I think that the SLP swaybars are 32f and 21r. The most popular I think is 35 hollow up front and 21 hollow rear. It's what I run on my racecar.
07-23-2009, 10:37 AM
#3
Detroit true-trac for the 12 bolt. If it's a manual transmission, don't need the cooler. Although, an oil cooler for the engine isn't a bad idea, along w/ a pre-oiler to ensure oil pressure during long turns. Sticky tires & adjustable dampening coil overs if you don't already have. Torque wrench to check lug nuts after each run. Check weight of car @ all 4 wheels & corner balance accordingly, include driver weight.
07-23-2009, 10:47 AM
#4
Yes, sorry. 4th Gen
Transmission upgrade package. (up to 700 HP)
lol!
No. Just need some suggestions on what I need to get my car set up for Road racing. As this is my last opportunity to do so, my wife want a bigger house.
I attended a 60-130 event and realized my break setup sucks poo-poo! I need better calipers for my current rotor set-up.
I'm not sure if I need a transmission upgrade or a cooler, etc. I have the funds to do a level 1 upgrade to the T-56 but if I do not NEED to do so, I will go with a modified stronger H/C set up instead
What's the "trans 1A package"?
You don't need the 6-piston or Z06 brakes. At least, not C6 Z06. C5 Corvette brakes or the CTS-V will be all you could want - unless you plan on racing in the 24 Hours of LeMans.
No. Just need some suggestions on what I need to get my car set up for Road racing. As this is my last opportunity to do so, my wife want a bigger house.
I attended a 60-130 event and realized my break setup sucks poo-poo! I need better calipers for my current rotor set-up.
I'm not sure if I need a transmission upgrade or a cooler, etc. I have the funds to do a level 1 upgrade to the T-56 but if I do not NEED to do so, I will go with a modified stronger H/C set up instead
07-23-2009, 10:59 AM
#5
Detroit true-trac for the 12 bolt. If it's a manual transmission, don't need the cooler. Although, an oil cooler for the engine isn't a bad idea, along w/ a pre-oiler to ensure oil pressure during long turns. Sticky tires & adjustable dampening coil overs if you don't already have. Torque wrench to check lug nuts after each run. Check weight of car @ all 4 wheels & corner balance accordingly, include driver weight.
I have a H.O. Melling oil pump is that good enough or is a pre-oiler still recommended? I will look into a oil cooler.
I have stock Bilstine Shocks and Eibach Sportline springs. What do you suggest. I still would like to enjoy a "cruise around the block" or to Galveston. I'm not looking to build a "track only" ride.
Detroit true-trac for the 12 bolt- will look into this as well. I got about $2500 budget for the rear.
07-23-2009, 12:11 PM
#6
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While not the absolute best, your shocks and springs are a 9 out of 10. They should be fine for track days.
Oh wait - you said "Sportlines"? Aren't those the lowest ones? If so, then those WON'T WORK on the track. You're going to be hitting your bumpstops hard. I'd recommend some Strano springs for the shocks.
Your tranny is fine. Mine is still mostly stock. I raced it 100% stock for a few years. Just put good fluid in it and you're good to go. It's not like drag racing where it gets shocked on launch. And, unlike drag racing, you don't have to make lightning-quick shifts. It's 100x more important to make sure you're in the right gear. During "lazy laps" (regular track days or when I'm not fighting for position), I usually take .25 seconds to shift. On fact shifts, it's about .1. When you hear my shifts compared to a drag guy, I sound like I'm in slow motion. But, after you drop it into 1st (instead of 3rd) coming out of a 1G turn going 85mph, you take your time. Oh, and no cooler is needed.
The swaybars I mentioned earlier are great for you. Also, Hellwig makes an adjustable rear bar. Truth be told, THAT'S what I have on my car, but tuned to equal a 21 hollow rate.
There are varying opinions about the right diff for a 12-bolt. I'm not the guy to ask. Strano may know...
Lastly, think about your brake pads. You will need something better than what you run on the street. I run Carbotech XP12s and they are wonderful on the track. Never fade, rock solid. You could swap them out when you get to the track. Also, swap fluid for something with around a 400* wet boiling point or better. Wilwood 570* or US Brake HTX 600 is what I use.
Some extra wheels/tires are nice so that you don't chew up your street tires. Buy cheap 18" Corvette wheels, then get some used take-offs for them. Probably $700 for wheels and tires.
You got a helmet?
Oh wait - you said "Sportlines"? Aren't those the lowest ones? If so, then those WON'T WORK on the track. You're going to be hitting your bumpstops hard. I'd recommend some Strano springs for the shocks.
Your tranny is fine. Mine is still mostly stock. I raced it 100% stock for a few years. Just put good fluid in it and you're good to go. It's not like drag racing where it gets shocked on launch. And, unlike drag racing, you don't have to make lightning-quick shifts. It's 100x more important to make sure you're in the right gear. During "lazy laps" (regular track days or when I'm not fighting for position), I usually take .25 seconds to shift. On fact shifts, it's about .1. When you hear my shifts compared to a drag guy, I sound like I'm in slow motion. But, after you drop it into 1st (instead of 3rd) coming out of a 1G turn going 85mph, you take your time. Oh, and no cooler is needed.
The swaybars I mentioned earlier are great for you. Also, Hellwig makes an adjustable rear bar. Truth be told, THAT'S what I have on my car, but tuned to equal a 21 hollow rate.
There are varying opinions about the right diff for a 12-bolt. I'm not the guy to ask. Strano may know...
Lastly, think about your brake pads. You will need something better than what you run on the street. I run Carbotech XP12s and they are wonderful on the track. Never fade, rock solid. You could swap them out when you get to the track. Also, swap fluid for something with around a 400* wet boiling point or better. Wilwood 570* or US Brake HTX 600 is what I use.
Some extra wheels/tires are nice so that you don't chew up your street tires. Buy cheap 18" Corvette wheels, then get some used take-offs for them. Probably $700 for wheels and tires.
You got a helmet?
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07-23-2009, 05:23 PM
#10
Yes, the pre-oiler will maintain oil pressure during long sweeping turns. The oil in the pan moves to one side of the pan & can starve the oil pump. If this happens you could spin a bearing or worse. Any pre-oiler is fine, even a cheapo bladderless pre-oiler w/ a manual valve. I use a cheapo with no problems. Most guys use Accusump w/ elecric valves & a bladder. It's up to you which type to choose.
Oil cooler is as imortant. Your oil can reach in excess of 300*F, which will break down street oils of which provide the proper viscosity protection from 205-230*F, ish. I even get concerned about 250*F racing oil when it reaches 300*F. Anyway, an oil cooler & run @ least a 60/40, (20W-50 to 5W-30) if not 100% racing oil (20W-50) @ the road course. Be sure to dump the oil & change the filter after every track day. You don't want to run on the street w/ racing oil, it will not get warm enough during street use & will be too thick.
I have stock Bilstine Shocks and Eibach Sportline springs. What do you suggest. I still would like to enjoy a "cruise around the block" or to Galveston. I'm not looking to build a "track only" ride.
Detroit true-trac for the 12 bolt- will look into this as well. I got about $2500 budget for the rear.
07-24-2009, 08:48 AM
#11
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I don't think he's got a Vette - it's a 4th gen F-body, right?
Your springs WILL be a problem. Take a look at the following spreadsheet, then come back to this thread:
http://www.angelfire.com/my/fastcar/suspension.html
Your front springs are just barely stiffer than stock, but you have already lost 1.5" of wheel travel. This means that it is still fairly easy to compress the springs, but there is nowhere for the wheel to go. What will happen is, when you go into a turn, the spring will compress because the body is leaning over onto the outside wheels. Because you don't have very stiff springs, it'll lean a lot. Swaybars help, but won't eliminate it.
After it leans enough, you'll hit your bumpstops. Your bumpstops are attached directly to your frame. This means that your wheel/tire is now effectively attached to the frame of your car. Those nice shocks are dead weight. If you hit a bump (we're talking tiny bumps, like cracks in the concrete and gumball-sized rocks), the car will skip over the pavement instead of absorbing the bump.
You will NEED different springs. But, don't fret. You have Bilstein shocks, which are great to start with. Strano springs are going to lower the car about 1" or so. You'll still get the look you like, but it'll handle 100x better. I don't know the exact spring rate he uses, but it's more like the good springs on that chart (G2, Hypercoils, MAC, etc.).
Or, you could REALLY get a good setup and buy some coilover sleeves from Ground Control, then buy coilover springs for the front. They sell them in 25lb increments, so you could get EXACTLY what you want. In the rear, you can run a weight jacker setup and buy custom springs (5" wide) for the rear. These springs (the 2.5" coilovers and the 5") usually cost $50 apiece.
Your springs WILL be a problem. Take a look at the following spreadsheet, then come back to this thread:
http://www.angelfire.com/my/fastcar/suspension.html
Your front springs are just barely stiffer than stock, but you have already lost 1.5" of wheel travel. This means that it is still fairly easy to compress the springs, but there is nowhere for the wheel to go. What will happen is, when you go into a turn, the spring will compress because the body is leaning over onto the outside wheels. Because you don't have very stiff springs, it'll lean a lot. Swaybars help, but won't eliminate it.
After it leans enough, you'll hit your bumpstops. Your bumpstops are attached directly to your frame. This means that your wheel/tire is now effectively attached to the frame of your car. Those nice shocks are dead weight. If you hit a bump (we're talking tiny bumps, like cracks in the concrete and gumball-sized rocks), the car will skip over the pavement instead of absorbing the bump.
You will NEED different springs. But, don't fret. You have Bilstein shocks, which are great to start with. Strano springs are going to lower the car about 1" or so. You'll still get the look you like, but it'll handle 100x better. I don't know the exact spring rate he uses, but it's more like the good springs on that chart (G2, Hypercoils, MAC, etc.).
Or, you could REALLY get a good setup and buy some coilover sleeves from Ground Control, then buy coilover springs for the front. They sell them in 25lb increments, so you could get EXACTLY what you want. In the rear, you can run a weight jacker setup and buy custom springs (5" wide) for the rear. These springs (the 2.5" coilovers and the 5") usually cost $50 apiece.
07-24-2009, 02:27 PM
#12
I don't think he's got a Vette - it's a 4th gen F-body, right?
Your springs WILL be a problem. Take a look at the following spreadsheet, then come back to this thread:
http://www.angelfire.com/my/fastcar/suspension.html
Your front springs are just barely stiffer than stock, but you have already lost 1.5" of wheel travel. This means that it is still fairly easy to compress the springs, but there is nowhere for the wheel to go. What will happen is, when you go into a turn, the spring will compress because the body is leaning over onto the outside wheels. Because you don't have very stiff springs, it'll lean a lot. Swaybars help, but won't eliminate it.
After it leans enough, you'll hit your bumpstops. Your bumpstops are attached directly to your frame. This means that your wheel/tire is now effectively attached to the frame of your car. Those nice shocks are dead weight. If you hit a bump (we're talking tiny bumps, like cracks in the concrete and gumball-sized rocks), the car will skip over the pavement instead of absorbing the bump.
You will NEED different springs. But, don't fret. You have Bilstein shocks, which are great to start with. Strano springs are going to lower the car about 1" or so. You'll still get the look you like, but it'll handle 100x better. I don't know the exact spring rate he uses, but it's more like the good springs on that chart (G2, Hypercoils, MAC, etc.).
Or, you could REALLY get a good setup and buy some coilover sleeves from Ground Control, then buy coilover springs for the front. They sell them in 25lb increments, so you could get EXACTLY what you want. In the rear, you can run a weight jacker setup and buy custom springs (5" wide) for the rear. These springs (the 2.5" coilovers and the 5") usually cost $50 apiece.
Your springs WILL be a problem. Take a look at the following spreadsheet, then come back to this thread:
http://www.angelfire.com/my/fastcar/suspension.html
Your front springs are just barely stiffer than stock, but you have already lost 1.5" of wheel travel. This means that it is still fairly easy to compress the springs, but there is nowhere for the wheel to go. What will happen is, when you go into a turn, the spring will compress because the body is leaning over onto the outside wheels. Because you don't have very stiff springs, it'll lean a lot. Swaybars help, but won't eliminate it.
After it leans enough, you'll hit your bumpstops. Your bumpstops are attached directly to your frame. This means that your wheel/tire is now effectively attached to the frame of your car. Those nice shocks are dead weight. If you hit a bump (we're talking tiny bumps, like cracks in the concrete and gumball-sized rocks), the car will skip over the pavement instead of absorbing the bump.
You will NEED different springs. But, don't fret. You have Bilstein shocks, which are great to start with. Strano springs are going to lower the car about 1" or so. You'll still get the look you like, but it'll handle 100x better. I don't know the exact spring rate he uses, but it's more like the good springs on that chart (G2, Hypercoils, MAC, etc.).
Or, you could REALLY get a good setup and buy some coilover sleeves from Ground Control, then buy coilover springs for the front. They sell them in 25lb increments, so you could get EXACTLY what you want. In the rear, you can run a weight jacker setup and buy custom springs (5" wide) for the rear. These springs (the 2.5" coilovers and the 5") usually cost $50 apiece.
You think I could get the Corvette calipers and shocks/spring set up for under $1300?
Is a torque arm and steel drive shaft needed for road/track days?
I appreciate everyones help. I have to get this right THIS time around. I have $6000 and that is it. Obviously If I spend less that's good too.
The 12 Bolt is a must! Transmission does not seem to be a major Requirement, so I can allocate that money to the suspension and break calipers ($1300)
07-24-2009, 04:40 PM
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Let's see:
- Koni 4/3 package from Strano is $850
- Front coilover package will run about $200 (threaded sleeves and springs)
- Rear weight jackers and springs will be about $200
That eats up your budget, and you don't have brakes.
Try getting the Bilsteins revalved specifically for your car. You'll send them in, tell them what spring rate you have (or will buy) and what you're goals are. They'll valve them perfectly for your car and the springs.
Unless you plan on competitively racing the car, your money will be better spent on Strano springs than coilovers. Then you'll have plenty left for a C5 conversion package.
The torque arm may be good, and may be bad. Mine was horrible. But, I raced against a guy who used a stock one and it was OK.
An AL driveshaft is best, but don't go buying a new one if you've got steel.
Call up Strano. He'll get you the good stuff, and point you in the direction you need for the other things.
Unfortunately, a lot of this is trial and error. Strano sold me my first suspension setup. Pretty much everything - springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. It worked great. But, as I started road racing more, I learned that I liked a stiffer spring (he'd probably agree - he sold me softer stuff because I was still on the road). I replaced the rear bar with an adjustable one. And, I replaced the rear shocks with something different because I was combating brake hop. But, his front shocks and front swaybar are still there. And, his setup was a great starting point.
- Koni 4/3 package from Strano is $850
- Front coilover package will run about $200 (threaded sleeves and springs)
- Rear weight jackers and springs will be about $200
That eats up your budget, and you don't have brakes.
Try getting the Bilsteins revalved specifically for your car. You'll send them in, tell them what spring rate you have (or will buy) and what you're goals are. They'll valve them perfectly for your car and the springs.
Unless you plan on competitively racing the car, your money will be better spent on Strano springs than coilovers. Then you'll have plenty left for a C5 conversion package.
The torque arm may be good, and may be bad. Mine was horrible. But, I raced against a guy who used a stock one and it was OK.
An AL driveshaft is best, but don't go buying a new one if you've got steel.
Call up Strano. He'll get you the good stuff, and point you in the direction you need for the other things.
Unfortunately, a lot of this is trial and error. Strano sold me my first suspension setup. Pretty much everything - springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. It worked great. But, as I started road racing more, I learned that I liked a stiffer spring (he'd probably agree - he sold me softer stuff because I was still on the road). I replaced the rear bar with an adjustable one. And, I replaced the rear shocks with something different because I was combating brake hop. But, his front shocks and front swaybar are still there. And, his setup was a great starting point.
07-24-2009, 07:39 PM
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you dont 'NEED' a 12 bolt. hundreds of f-bodies race competitively on 10 bolts. and im talking actual RACING, not just track days and autox. dedicated, gutted race cars with people who travel the country to attend events with cash payouts. i really doubt thats what youre getting into when you say 'road racing'. it sounds more like just track days.
12 bolts are heavier, and dont have the best options for a road race diff. nearly all 12 bolts are soley used for drag racing. there are many better options in diffs for a 10 bolt, and since youre apparently throwing money into the car, why not beef up the rear. CM axles, welded tubes, longer/high strenth studs, and a torsen T2R diff is all youll ever need, unless you start doing stupid things with it. itll be significantly lighter also.
12 bolts are heavier, and dont have the best options for a road race diff. nearly all 12 bolts are soley used for drag racing. there are many better options in diffs for a 10 bolt, and since youre apparently throwing money into the car, why not beef up the rear. CM axles, welded tubes, longer/high strenth studs, and a torsen T2R diff is all youll ever need, unless you start doing stupid things with it. itll be significantly lighter also.
07-24-2009, 11:00 PM
#15
I would like to get my car to a point where all i have to worry about is break pads rotors and oil changes. If you had 6K and the mods currently posted, what would YOU do? That is what I am asking.
Is setting the car up for Track days a sin? I need advise on building a set-up for track, that is why i'm posting.
00 Trans Ram-
I will look into the Strano springs. Thanks
Is setting the car up for Track days a sin? I need advise on building a set-up for track, that is why i'm posting.
00 Trans Ram-
I will look into the Strano springs. Thanks
07-25-2009, 12:57 PM
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I would like to get my car to a point where all i have to worry about is break pads rotors and oil changes. If you had 6K and the mods currently posted, what would YOU do? That is what I am asking.
Is setting the car up for Track days a sin? I need advise on building a set-up for track, that is why i'm posting.
00 Trans Ram-
I will look into the Strano springs. Thanks
Is setting the car up for Track days a sin? I need advise on building a set-up for track, that is why i'm posting.
00 Trans Ram-
I will look into the Strano springs. Thanks
Strano's Springs $225
Strano Bar Front and Rear $425
Koni's Front/Rear $1000
(Great package, so good in fact that I think this is the exact setup they should have come with from the factory)
Total $1650
C5 Brake Kit (Trackbrackets version) $250
C5/C6 Calipers/Rotors etc to complete $500+/-
Upgraded Pads (Hawk/Carbotec etc) Front/Rear $250
(Best bang for the buck brake upgrade IMO and it uses all readily available parts with tons of brake pad choices when the time comes)
Total $1000
Oil Cooler/plumbing/fittings $400??? (pure guess)
Aftermarket Water Temp/Oil Temp/Oil Pressure guages $200???
(to keep an eye on things)
Total $600
Rims/Tires $1000??
(go with 18's not 17's, lots more choices for scrubs)
Seat/Harness $800?
(good seat, properly mounted with a properly mounted harness = not cheap)
That's about $5000 into the car, you doing all the labor.
The remaining $1000 could be put to the rear end getting freshened?
What's left over $$$$ = Generally going over the car looking for saftey/maintenance/fresh fluids and other items that might need some attention such as front hubs (known weak point), front control arm bushings, rear control arm bushings, T/A mount/bushing etc. And what's left is for SEAT TIME.
I have all the mods you currently have plus all those I just listed and the car is a lot of fun, predictable and easy to drive on the street. I run 17x11 wheels but wouldn't recommend them because it's almost impossible to get scrubs in that size anymore. There are tons more options in the 18" market.
I have a Moser 12-bolt in my car with 3.73's and wouldn't trade it for a 10-bolt, but my car started life on the dragstrip. I don't think I'd spend for the 12-bolt in a pure autox or trackday car at least not right away. If your 10-bolt is in good shape, get some good fluid in it and go. When it comes time for a diff/axles etc, then you'll have some thinking to do but could still probably be ahead of the game with a well prepped 10-bolt.
Do your homework on seats and belts. Not all are created equal. I have Kirkey Intermediate Road Race Seats and they are not a true bolt in deal and require a back brace, which means you need a roll bar, so they aren't for everyone. For an aluminum seat they are very supportive and comfortable even on long rides. Sparco and others make seats that are more user friendly.
Beyond all of this I think you are getting into a more dedicated type of car, accusumps, roll bars/cages, gutted interiors, aggressive weight reduction etc. Its the point my 99 firechicken is at, but I can't bring my self to start gutting, chopping etc.
Good Luck, Be Safe and have fun.
07-26-2009, 02:04 AM
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it sounds like you need to do alot more research before you start buying parts, and for the rear end it is not being abused like it is with drag racing, stock is fine and lighter than others, i'd say do alot more reading before you start buying parts
07-28-2009, 11:39 AM
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so im confused do i want to run a coilover set up or a good spring/shock combo....... or coilovers up front and spring and shocks in the rear, and what about gears i just see 4.10's being terrible always having to **** but i could be wrong
Last edited by Mightymike2000ss; 07-28-2009 at 11:45 AM.