Which rear LCA's?
So I ended up going with the Heim Joints, will they be noisier than properly setup roto-joints? Maybe. Will they be louder than my howling 10-bolt with creaking 140k components? Doubtful. I know this has now become one of those ask for advice then disregard it posts, but that happens.
I liked the idea of going with all new rear parts in the back and MWC cut me a deal since I'm getting them with the rear. This is a "street" car 2-3 days/week, so a little noise isn't a big deal. If they are terrible as some are warning, I'll eat my words and swap them out. I'll update once everything is installed and I have some street as well as auto-x miles.
I liked the idea of going with all new rear parts in the back and MWC cut me a deal since I'm getting them with the rear. This is a "street" car 2-3 days/week, so a little noise isn't a big deal. If they are terrible as some are warning, I'll eat my words and swap them out. I'll update once everything is installed and I have some street as well as auto-x miles.
It could come down to other NVH in your vehicle which might mask any noises, the quality of the roads you drive on, your tolerance level, and the quality of the heim joints provided by MWC. I'd be interested in your review a few months down the road, pun intended. The 3-piece Teflon-lined FK rod ends I referenced earlier are about $30-40 each.
While expansion cracks are abrupt, I don't get any rattling noises at all for months after buying new ends. I don't drive on gravel, snow, the beach, and rarely on cobblestones (no noises there either, but they aren't conducive to a stiff suspension). If you want to swing by Orlando I'll let you drive it
While expansion cracks are abrupt, I don't get any rattling noises at all for months after buying new ends. I don't drive on gravel, snow, the beach, and rarely on cobblestones (no noises there either, but they aren't conducive to a stiff suspension). If you want to swing by Orlando I'll let you drive it
I prefer rod ends for the unrestricted movement. They do make more noise, so there is compromise. To me, all the benefit of a roto joint goes out the window when you crank the **** out of them to make them quiet. The unrestricted movement is long gone. Just my 2 cents. Also pick up some of the seals jim mentioned, they can help extend life by keeping road debris out of the joint.
If max performance is your goal, rod ends all the way. If NVH is a concern, stock arms with 1LE bushings can't be beat. It's all a game of compromises to reach your goal.
If max performance is your goal, rod ends all the way. If NVH is a concern, stock arms with 1LE bushings can't be beat. It's all a game of compromises to reach your goal.
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
I run Adjustable Lower control arms with Hem Joints and they have been great, they come with (4) Spacers to have the control arm sit "IN" more for more tire clearance, they don't make any noise, and are built solid, also have the adjustable pan hard bar that is really nice I like them a lot 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Umi-Performance-1982-2002-GM-F-Body-Adjustable-Lower-Control-Arms-Panhard-Bar-/311299258187?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A2001%7CModel%3ACamaro&hash=item487ae1b74b&vxp=mtr
I have trusted the masses regarding other locations though; not to use heim joints in the front LCA's or in the sway bar endlink locations on a street car much less a daily driver. I think there were some challenges on performing with heim front LCA's also. Perhaps if they were less expensive to try out 
I haven't found a forum vendor which has a solution like this, so maybe these links will stay.
Dual heim endlinks
Heim end link with poly upper
I haven't found a forum vendor which has a solution like this, so maybe these links will stay.
Dual heim endlinks
Heim end link with poly upper
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
I have trusted the masses regarding other locations though; not to use heim joints in the front LCA's or in the sway bar endlink locations on a street car much less a daily driver. I think there were some challenges on performing with heim front LCA's also. Perhaps if they were less expensive to try out
I haven't found a forum vendor which has a solution like this, so maybe these links will stay.
Dual heim endlinks
Heim end link with poly upper
I haven't found a forum vendor which has a solution like this, so maybe these links will stay.
Dual heim endlinks
Heim end link with poly upper
They also make "traction bar lower control arms" that are pretty stout
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...catrbaL1321700
It could come down to other NVH in your vehicle which might mask any noises, the quality of the roads you drive on, your tolerance level, and the quality of the heim joints provided by MWC. I'd be interested in your review a few months down the road, pun intended. The 3-piece Teflon-lined FK rod ends I referenced earlier are about $30-40 each.
While expansion cracks are abrupt, I don't get any rattling noises at all for months after buying new ends. I don't drive on gravel, snow, the beach, and rarely on cobblestones (no noises there either, but they aren't conducive to a stiff suspension). If you want to swing by Orlando I'll let you drive it
While expansion cracks are abrupt, I don't get any rattling noises at all for months after buying new ends. I don't drive on gravel, snow, the beach, and rarely on cobblestones (no noises there either, but they aren't conducive to a stiff suspension). If you want to swing by Orlando I'll let you drive it
MWC told me they use a very high end Heim joint, and that was what drew me back to their part. My Camaro is far from a DD, but the 93db limit on exhaust is pretty strict for Auto-x and racelegal events so it's also pretty quiet. I'll update here once I've got some news!
They also make "traction bar lower control arms" that are pretty stout
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...catrbaL1321700
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...catrbaL1321700
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine
Verdad Gallardo
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin
Verdad Gallardo
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo So for anyone who was interested in this, I'm not 400 miles into the break-in of my MWC FAB9 with double adjustable heim/heim ends. Impressions:
First 100 miles: Holy cow these things are loud
After throwing some loctite on my loose jam nuts: nvm very doable.
You can definitely hear them click on brick roads, but realistically not bad at all and much less noise than I thought I'd see. There is more vibration overall, but I attribute some of that to the new TA with poly mount and better crossmember.
First 100 miles: Holy cow these things are loud
After throwing some loctite on my loose jam nuts: nvm very doable.
You can definitely hear them click on brick roads, but realistically not bad at all and much less noise than I thought I'd see. There is more vibration overall, but I attribute some of that to the new TA with poly mount and better crossmember.
This is my plan when money frees up and IF I can prove to myself I need them. To be honest, MWC cut me an awesome deal since I already dropped coin on the rear. It wouldn't have made much sense to make my own...
If you've had a chance to run your double adjustable heim/heim ends on the street and auto-x for a while, I'm curoius to hear any additional thoughts you have regarding performance on track and street manners.
I ended up going with the roto-joints on mine. Aside from occassional clicking they're relatively quiet. No harsh NVH, however I haven't had a chance to get back on track with them. We tightened them up in favor of reducing noise, however I want to get them on track to make sure there are no binding issues before I determine how happy I am with them.
I ended up going with the roto-joints on mine. Aside from occassional clicking they're relatively quiet. No harsh NVH, however I haven't had a chance to get back on track with them. We tightened them up in favor of reducing noise, however I want to get them on track to make sure there are no binding issues before I determine how happy I am with them.
If you've had a chance to run your double adjustable heim/heim ends on the street and auto-x for a while, I'm curoius to hear any additional thoughts you have regarding performance on track and street manners.
I ended up going with the roto-joints on mine. Aside from occassional clicking they're relatively quiet. No harsh NVH, however I haven't had a chance to get back on track with them. We tightened them up in favor of reducing noise, however I want to get them on track to make sure there are no binding issues before I determine how happy I am with them.
I ended up going with the roto-joints on mine. Aside from occassional clicking they're relatively quiet. No harsh NVH, however I haven't had a chance to get back on track with them. We tightened them up in favor of reducing noise, however I want to get them on track to make sure there are no binding issues before I determine how happy I am with them.
Although I do have ~1000 street miles on the heim/heims, after fixing the loose jam nuts, they are actually pretty quiet. I didn't have to tighten them or anything special, just popped them in, slapped some loctite on the jam nuts and bam. Originally I was worried I'd end up switching to roto joints for better street manners, but at this point I'd say there is no reason to do that.
Sure on a brick road they are nosier than my mercedes, but nothing worse than what I would expect from a 16 year old Camaro.
TECH Addict
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,103
Likes: 21
Good responses.
It's interesting that some people want a BMW ride out of a tin-can built Camaro when adding suspension parts lol. You don't drive a Fbody Camaro for it's creature comforts
I would like to go heim/heim rear LCA's but then I'm out of ESP class.
It's interesting that some people want a BMW ride out of a tin-can built Camaro when adding suspension parts lol. You don't drive a Fbody Camaro for it's creature comforts
I would like to go heim/heim rear LCA's but then I'm out of ESP class.
i have bmr extereme lcas. I bought them probably 10 years ago before a family and when i had money , they were expensive but they are beefy .
The are poly poly adjustable on car. I just went to a mwc fab 9 and i had a stock 10 bolt and tq arm before that and it added a fair amount of nvh , so i dont know if i would go with rod ended or roto joint ends . I like the poly because it quiet .
The are poly poly adjustable on car. I just went to a mwc fab 9 and i had a stock 10 bolt and tq arm before that and it added a fair amount of nvh , so i dont know if i would go with rod ended or roto joint ends . I like the poly because it quiet .
i have bmr extereme lcas. I bought them probably 10 years ago before a family and when i had money , they were expensive but they are beefy .
The are poly poly adjustable on car. I just went to a mwc fab 9 and i had a stock 10 bolt and tq arm before that and it added a fair amount of nvh , so i dont know if i would go with rod ended or roto joint ends . I like the poly because it quiet .
The are poly poly adjustable on car. I just went to a mwc fab 9 and i had a stock 10 bolt and tq arm before that and it added a fair amount of nvh , so i dont know if i would go with rod ended or roto joint ends . I like the poly because it quiet .
This^^^^
There is no way in hell I would run any aftermarket suspension item with 1) poly bushings, 2) non-adjustable
If you are looking for aftermarket suspension, why would you purchase something that binds worse than factory rubber? If you are looking for performance, then why would you be concerned about noise transfer? I realize heim joints got as bad name here after years of manufacturers using the cheap stuff, but there are better quality, more correct components out there to do the job without the same issues as most people fear.
There is no way in hell I would run any aftermarket suspension item with 1) poly bushings, 2) non-adjustable
If you are looking for aftermarket suspension, why would you purchase something that binds worse than factory rubber? If you are looking for performance, then why would you be concerned about noise transfer? I realize heim joints got as bad name here after years of manufacturers using the cheap stuff, but there are better quality, more correct components out there to do the job without the same issues as most people fear.
http://www.foundersperformance.com/1...ceted_search=0
I have an adjustable set of these yet to be installed. Seems like good logic, dunno how great they work in real life.
I have an adjustable set of these yet to be installed. Seems like good logic, dunno how great they work in real life.
It's not all of a sudden...Also I wouldn't say it's terrible, I just don't see the logic in using a part that has an obvious weak point.
If you now draw a straight line through your body LCA body mount to the LCA mount on the axle you get the line that a poly/poly LCA will follow as it moves with relation to the body of the car.
But this is good, right? I mean my axle only moves up and down, not side to side?
No, unless both sides of the axle housing go up and down the same, it will actually travel in an arc, and because the poly bushings have poor deflection (not sure if that is the right word) they bind against their mount points and hinder the axle housing's free up and down movement.
You're crazy, my panhard bar keep my housing centered at all times?!
No, that travels in an arc as well.
The benefit of a heim, roto or swivel joint is that they allow for some lateral movement which is much more predictable than the binding of a poly joint. Or just load the stockers with the 1LE bushings.
Why do so many people use poly/poly LCAs then?
Your guess is as good as mine, I think they look cool and it's a cheap easy mod you can do in your driveway. And I will concede that they can probably help with some wheel hop issues when drag racing as the binding is lessened when the rear suspension compresses evenly (although your PHB will force it into an arc...)
Disclaimer: This is my understanding of the pitfalls of poly/poly LCAs, someone may be able to prove me wrong and I invite that, but "I never noticed any binding" is not a valid defense.
If you now draw a straight line through your body LCA body mount to the LCA mount on the axle you get the line that a poly/poly LCA will follow as it moves with relation to the body of the car.
But this is good, right? I mean my axle only moves up and down, not side to side?
No, unless both sides of the axle housing go up and down the same, it will actually travel in an arc, and because the poly bushings have poor deflection (not sure if that is the right word) they bind against their mount points and hinder the axle housing's free up and down movement.
You're crazy, my panhard bar keep my housing centered at all times?!
No, that travels in an arc as well.
The benefit of a heim, roto or swivel joint is that they allow for some lateral movement which is much more predictable than the binding of a poly joint. Or just load the stockers with the 1LE bushings.
Why do so many people use poly/poly LCAs then?
Your guess is as good as mine, I think they look cool and it's a cheap easy mod you can do in your driveway. And I will concede that they can probably help with some wheel hop issues when drag racing as the binding is lessened when the rear suspension compresses evenly (although your PHB will force it into an arc...)
Disclaimer: This is my understanding of the pitfalls of poly/poly LCAs, someone may be able to prove me wrong and I invite that, but "I never noticed any binding" is not a valid defense.