TOO Z MAXX

Tone it down a bit or it will be your last time you rant about anything around here.
BTW how hard do you think it is to add and remove an air inlet retsriction?

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Wow. Just wow.

I've often said that the reply you get will be based on what and how you posted. If you're polite, you tend to get polite replies, if you are a raving lunatic, you often get similar responses. However, I'm going to try to be as polite and professional as possible. I don't want this thread to degenerate any more than it has already. While I'm at it, I'll try to explain this from my point of view.

I don't think they said everyone should demod their car. I think you heard that everyone should demod their car. If you have a car that you have that much time and energy in (like Glenn's 450 hp track toy that is in the garage), you probably don't want to do wheel to wheel racing in it. So, there is no demodding necessary. There are actually many people who have these cars as "toys" or projects or sitting around wondering what race class they might decide to prep it for. As for those who "can't afford a driver and a race car", you are probably not a candidate for wheel to wheel racing, no matter if it's CMC, CMC-2, AI, AIX, AV8SS or any others. They weren't suggesting that people bring out their daily drivers (but you can if you want to). However, there are also some guys who have these cars as toys who drive them on the street and can drive them to events and run those events. You just have to realize that you might not make it home under your own power one day (if you hit something, blow a motor, rear end, etc, it's not common, but as they say "that's racing"). That's the risk, some guys feel lucky, some don't. There are guys who can't afford or won't afford to go racing. There are also guys who can or will find a way. They were talking to those who have been thinking about buying/building a track car to use in some series. Racing is expensive and it doesn't sound like you're in a position to afford to go racing in a series. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't be upset with Mitch, Glenn and the others because you don't have the budget to go racing or because you're happy with your street car (and there is nothing at all wrong with that, I'm happy with my street car too). That's what it boils down to, you're upset that they dared tell you that you can't/shouldn't run this series with your big hp street car. This shouldn't be news to you. You probably don't belong in a series with a car that you have that much time, effort and money tied up in. Don't go on track with anything you can't afford to write off and walk away from. When you're on track, things can happen. There is always a chance that you might write off the whole car. So, if you don't have a car that you can afford to walk away from, keep it far away from a road course (even HPDE days have seen cars totalled). Relax, it's not personal, there are many places for high hp street cars, CMC and CMC-2 are not either of them though.

I think the point that was possibly misunderstood is that you have to learn to conserve momentum in a lower powered car. Driving a car with less hp will typically force you to become a smoother driver. You have to concentrate on maintaining momentum. With 1,000 RWHP, you can screw up every corner and make it up by running 165 mph into the next braking zone. You can drive like a blind man and still turn good lap times. On the other hand, running a Miata (or any other 100-ish hp car, or even a 230 hp CMC car) will force you to be smooth. If you brake too much into a corner, you can't easily make that time up. So, you try to maintain as much velocity as you can. This requires you to be smooth. That's what Glenn was illustrating when he said that he has turned better lap times in his CMC car (and on much smaller tires, 245's instead of 315's) and with nearly 1/2 the hp.

Also, the HP limits and shock price limits and such are designed to keep spending in check. The goal is to make this class cheap (affordable), if any form of racing can be called cheap. You don't need a 400+ hp car to do this. If you have one, that's very cool. Big hp cars can be a lot of fun. You can also have a ton of fun on track with a moderate hp car as well.

I'm going to try to explain this for everyone. Everyone, not just Echo.

CMC is one of about 4 bazillion race classes that you might choose to participate in. If you are a person who has wanted to get into organized road racing with caged cars on a real track where there is a chance of contact (not typically the domain of daily drivers), CMC and CMC-2 are places where you can do that. CMC is a great place to run an LT1 car against other LT1's, 3rd gens and Mustangs. The CMC-2 class is the same way, but they up the hp a bit for the newer cars that make more power and have a different power band. Since we all know that 3rd gen F-bodies and 5.0 (and 4.6) Mustangs are less powerful than LT1 cars, they use a restrictor plate in the intake to equalize the playing field. You have HP/Torque limits and weight limits/restrictions for being over on hp or torque. The goal is to allow the various pony cars to play together without one having a clear cut hp advantage over the other one. The only way to do that is to slow the faster Camaro/Firebird based cars down with a restrictor.

We all got involved with cars and in various forms of motorsports because we like it. It doesn't matter if it's road racing, drag racing, autocrossing, etc, we do this because we enjoy it. It's always good to have choices, other places and classes to run in. CMC-2 is another one of those classes and it's good for the community as a whole to have another place to play. You may not choose to do so, maybe you will. Racing is hard work and costs money. I know guys who have sold off Corvettes and other nice street cars (and bought beaters to drive daily) to generate the budget to build a race car. It might require sacrifice, it might not (depends on your wallet). Nothing like this is easy and you'll have to decide if the sacrifice is worth it for you. Nobody can make that decision for you.

Anyway, that's just how I see it. Others may choose not to agree.

Be safe and keep the shiny side up.

Rob Hood

You have to decide how you want to use the car - is it a daily driver, or is it a racecar? Will it be both? Where are you going to live? How are you going to afford to race? These are critical factors everyone must use (among others) to determine how they can go racing and in what category to race in.

If you've spent tons of money on your car for one racing category and now it won't fit into another, you can either leave it as is and stay in your existing category, or decide to change your car to fit the new rules. Nobody's forcing you to do anything. The info Glenn and Mitch provided were for those here who wanted a place to roadrace their LSx vehicles in CMC and were previously unable to.

Teutonic Speedracer

iTrader: (20)

I thought this post was to let people be aware of the new class added to CMC? Nobody is telling you to do anything. I modded my car so much that I can't run in much less than AIX due to ~430rwhp/2900 lbs. I wish I had thought of a CMC or CMC-2 class earlier. Now I have a dedicated track car with only 30k miles on it that maybe someday I will race, but at the expense of about $40k vs. $10k. Hmmmm.....I bet I'd have just as much fun with 230hp and have a lot less maintenance. Oh, and FWIW, I live in NJ too, and I see the space thing being an issue for some, but racecars don't require insurance!

Glenn---Thanks for mentioning their is another class for f-bodies to roadrace in!

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Echo ... LOTS of folks run what they brung. It's very common to trailer tires and pit gear on a small diddy trailer behind the race car at local autocrosses. So, while it might appear to be a huge hassle and an insurmountable hurdle, it is what you make of it.

I know a LOT of folks who have the side windows, column locks and alarm systems still in their race car because they have to leave it in the weather, outside.

Now, on the other hand, let me rant a little ... If you live in an apartment, and you've spent 10s of thousands of dollars on mods, then the question begs to be asked ... where are your priorities? For the cash lost on mods, a nice down payment could have been made on a home WITH a garage, driveway and side yard.

But, beyond all this ... I still don't see your beef. The only attitude I copped was when it deemed "stupid" to demod to make HP/WT. For any one who has never driven on a road course, it is difficult to realize it's not about HP, rather momentum.

It takes 5 times as long to go from 60 to 120 as it does 120 to 60. So anything, as a driver, you can do to keep 80 from becoming 60, puts you farther down the track and ahead of the competition.

One last comment ... in a drag race, it's about beating your opponent from point A to point B. In road racing, it's about getting to point B first. If you can see the difference, you get it.

Glenn98ZM6

i dont want this to turn into a road racing vs drag racing debate. as the others have posted, i came into this forum (one in which i frequent and have done so long before i started road racing) to spread info. i learned of NASA and CMC/AI by reading an article about the NASA California region in Hot Rod magazine way back in 2003. i had no idea this type of thing was available to the "common" person. i always thought this was something you did as a pro, or did not do. once i went to the CMC web page, i saw there was an event in my back yard. i went and watched, met the guys, and decided that was what i was going to do. i have watched my own region grow from 3 cars to 23 cars in CMC alone. count the sister series that runs on track w/ us durring our race and thats 52 drivers in the AI/CMC series (not counting those that run in SPEC MIata, SPEC RX7, Honda Challenge, SPEC M3, Formula Ford, Baby Grands, Legends, GPC, SPEC Neon, and many,many other class's). almost every guy of that 52 started off weekend drag racing their daily driver cause that was the only thing to do w/ it. they too grew tired of that and looked for something else to do. they sold cars, demodded cars, did whatever they needed to do to go racing. why, because they want to race, bacause they wanted a fair and even playing field. they were tired of spending themselves into bankruptcy. i wish everyday that i had know about AI when i bought my 98 Camaro. i have 30K into that car. had i known, i would have mod'ed the car a little differently and been able to run it in AI. i would have known if someone would have taken the time to post on an F-body forum i was on about this type of racing being available. well, that someone is now me hoping to inform someone out there who is what i was 5 years ago - uninformed.
so trash talk the rules about limited HP, trash talk the rules about having to demod for some class's to be legal, trash talk me cause i think i'm too good to hang w/ the drag crowd. but realize this, i'm not going away, and i'm not going to stop posting about this series. so, if your not intrested in this type of racing, mark me invisible in your profile set-up, or stop comming into this forum. go back to the "first liar dont stand a chance" forum (that would be the street kills forum). i would almost understand your "attitude" had iwent in there or one of the 270 other drag oriented forums on this site and posted this. i didnt.

00 Trans Ram

iTrader: (5)

Glenn - thanks for straightening that out about the airboxes. I totally forgot about them. And, I could kill GM for the "marketing Kool-Aid" they did on SS and WS-6 packages!

As for the whole other debate - I've got a car that's too modded for CMC2. I'm not going to unmod it because I like it. But then, I don't recall anyone asking/telling me to. Luckily I've got a road race series in my backyard (at No Problem Raceway) that classifies cars by what times they run. So, I can do anything I want to it. My car is illegal for both CMC2, AI, and all SCCA classes. But, those races usually don't come within 5 hours of me anyways.

I guess my point is, do whatever you want to your car. And don't pay attention to others. There's no reason to get offended at anything here. After all, it's just a computer. Turn it off and walk away. I can understand about not having more than 1 car, in surance, apartments, etc. These guys are just telling you what is the way to go about racing properly. If you can't do it because of one reason or another, there's no reason to be offended - or to offend. Just take it in stride, and vow to one day be able to do it the right way. I wasn't able to get a race-only car the easy way. It was a daily driver, then after hurricane Katrina I had to get a new car. Not the usual way of making a racecar, but it worked for me.

One last thing - not that Glenn and Mitch are my best friends in the world. But, in the few years I've talked with them, they've never gone out of their way to offend people. Give advice - sure. Discourage from doing something stupid - yup. Even scolded for having done something stupid - once or twice. But, never offended by being personally degrading.

nape

iTrader: (2)

Glenn finally hit on an important point with the last sentence, IMO. The title of this sub-forum is "Road Racing", as in getting out there in a race car against other people and dicing it up door to door, fender to fender through turns that most people couldn't negotiate through smoothly at street speeds, let alone a race pace. If that doesn't get your pulse up, you must be dead.

Racing costs money no matter what type of racing you're doing (drag, road racing, autocross, ORR, etc). What you have to figure out is what you want as priorities. You want a couple street cars, apartment, and whatever else. That's fine, no one's holding it against you but it takes a different priority list to race unless you've got a big enough wallet to do everything.

I know my priorites. It involves getting my car safe for next year, getting my comp license, and to run mid-pack at a few races ('cause we've got some damn good AI drivers around here!). Sacrifices? Yeah, I still live at home, drive a beater to work everyday, have a tow vehicle that isn't great but it gets me to events, and I do all the favors I have to so I have a place to store the car and so I can borrow a trailer when I need to get around . Am I screwed up in the head? Maybe, but it's where my priorities fall right now. To me, it's way more enjoyable to have a goal of where I need to be vs. when I was drag racing and would've always been chasing the next tenth or that guy who spent another couple grand on his motor then me. Now, it doesn't matter how much the next guy spends if I can keep up with him. Let him spend 15k on a motor, he still has to play by the same rules that I do.

midcoast

I get guys in my shop all the time that look down on our CMC car....how fast can you go with 230 hp anyway, right? I challenge their 500 hp 03 Cobra's all the time, and nobody every steps up. It's damn impressive how quick you really can get a stock suspended 230 rwhp car around a road course with a good driver....and Mitch and Glenn are both obviously very fast, look at their results at the nationals.

CMC-2 looks to me like an excellent opportunity for someone with an LS1 car to get into an affordable road race car. It's WAY more affordable than the alternatives...AI or AIX. We used to race an AIX car that made 650 rwhp, and had over 100 grand in just parts, so do the math if you had to pay someone to do all the fab work. If I hadn't already been building my personal car into an AI car, CMC-2 with a 4th gen would be the ticket....and I'm seriously contemplating selling my mudstain to get one.

Unless you have an unlimited budget, rules are your friend....

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I crew cheif for an AV8SS (American V8 Supercar Series) car and we've been known to blow engines on occasion (every weekend for a while). We've actually had a rash of engine failures. These are typically $15k+ engines that we have been known to replace at each event. Everything from a bent distributor hold down (allowed the timing to move, detonation occured and the motor went pop) to just breaking crank shafts. Racing can cost a ton, but you can build a CMC car for the cost of our engines alone. That's not a bad thing. And, from my experience crewing for the CMC crowd, they have just as much fun.

v7guy

iTrader: (1)

I guess I just don't understand where putting a restrictor on is demodding a car, wouldn't take too much time to find the right one if you've moddified it much for power.

hell, if you really want to get on the track go to a hpde, or autocross. No biggie. Just go have fun.

Never would have guessed some guys trying to let others know they can race in a new class and just generally trying to help out other enthusiasts would get such a violent knee jerk reaction. Some of you guys need to grow up......this stuff isn't for everyone, but you don't have to be a jerk because it's not for you.

Glenn98ZM6

just to clarify, even if your car has a restrictor plate in place and makes the legal HP/TQ number, in CMC and CMC-2 no ported heads or aftermarket cams, or any non-stock engine parts allowed. this is a stock motor class. the restrictor is allowed to be used in order to allow you to run @ a lighter weight. in CMC for a 4th gen the lightest your allowed to run is 3200 post race including driver. that weight will require you to be @ or below 230hp/300tq. same w/ CMC-2, the LT1's can run @ 3200lbs w/ 260hp/310tq. for the LS1's the minimum is 280hp/320tq @ 3360 post race w/ driver.

so its not about just restricting the power. you have to start w/ stock parts. i see no problem in selling the aftermarket parts for stock parts + some cash. once you totally demod, you couls have the car back to stock and money for the cage.

Glenn98ZM6

EchoMirage - i would like to hear your thoughts after all the responces above. if you still feel the same, no need to post.

v7guy

iTrader: (1)

that'll show me to read the freakin rules before I post lol

TAF Motorsports

iTrader: (10)

EchoMirage

iTrader: (3)

yeah i feel the same. you havent changed my mind, and never will. what you still dont realize is that i dont care about the rules or the organization running it......what upset me is your attitude towards other people suggesting they should demod their cars, and if they dont, they're 'playstations racers'.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

You made that assumption ...

trj20

Don't mean to hijack this thread but for the pony car crowd and those who have ever thought about racing their car, this is just an fyi. SCCA's pony car class AS (american sedan) is a camaro vs. mustang class. NASA's AI class mimicks SCCA's AS class for those taking notes. CMC is much more restrictive. The SCCA Runoffs national championship race was held at Heartland Park, in Topeka in October. It was televised by the Speed channel and the AS race will be televised on December 5th (THIS TUESDAY) at 1pm eastern time. I'm not here to get into a NASA vs. SCCA debate, so for the tuner car guys here thinking about racing their car be it NASA or SCCA you can see what its like on television. The differences between NASA and SCCA are many and could be debated forever for and against. Both offer great places to race and great competition. NASA has their own championship now at Mid Ohio and from what I've heard is a great event as well. Racing is racing no matter which sanctioning body you choose. My only advice is get the rulebook of whichever association you choose and read it over and over before you spend a penny. And once you start racing its worth every penny.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Sage advice.

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

Thats great, everyone has their own opinion.

So why are you posting in this thread. Usually when a thread of no intrest comes up, people just overlook it and go about their buisness.

No on said to pull power out of your car, simply that if you wanted to run in this series that the rules required it, since you dont care for the rules or the organization...still why are you posting.

That being said, its clear that you have nothing constructive to say in this thread and if you post again in this thread, you will be banned.