I have prepped several C5's for NASA TTS Time Trials and 1 CTS-V and I will tell you one thing for sure to make the Caddy competitive it will take lots of $$$. Our car is completely gutted and still weighs in at 3320. To make the car handle worth a damn we had to put flairs on it (actually they are the same flares as the blue and yellow car from above) We also got the wheels off that car - they are OZ racing wheels and magnesium. Powell Motorsports developed the Grand Am cup car.
We installed coil-overs, delrin suspension bushings, flairs larger wheels and tires, head - cam - headers carbon fiber doors (drivers side) front fenders and hood. It still weights in at 3350 lbs and now keeps up with a C5 T1 car.

There is a reason that the CTS-V is in T2 and the Vette is in T1, I would look at buying a C5 much less modding and just plain faster. The Caddy is very cool I have to say but it takes so much work to get one to go fast, plus when you are at the track everytime a C5 blows by you, you'll be thinking damn I could have had one of those!!

If you are going wheel to wheel you have to invest in a truck and trailer, you can't drive to the track race and drive home besides contact if you ever have a problem you are screwd, and those are not problems you want to solve on a Sunday evening after driving all weekend.

Just my opinion.

 

heck yes

 

Please explain to me the 'people' who think the 150lb penalty is an overdawg?

Again... I'll lay down the challenge... you can post back here in October... after the HPT Runoffs...

NO LS1 F-BODY in A-SEDAN will be able to TOUCH my times in T2 trim!!!

It's a 150lb penalty for the F-body... but a 400lb penalty vs. A-Sedan.

And HP is all that matters... gear ratio's are free... you just gear the Carb Cars to stay up in the power band. The LS1 cars... can't even change gearing! They just get suspension!

It is a complete joke... and Evan is the only poor fool out there giving it a shot... I give him credit for that... but then they just discredit him... saying there isn't enough people doing it.

Sorry... all the other 'suckers' left SCCA... myself included.

I wish I could run A-Sedan... but I hate carb cars... just not my cup of tea.

I was/am very dissapointed in this 'supposed' light years ahead change... and then to see the LS2 6.0 GTO get 17X9.5" wheels... and the same weight as the Camaro's on a 16X8... just shows again... the Brilliance behind the classing decisions.

But yes... I agree... there are good people in both organizations.

Peace,
Dave

 

For the aspiring racer not sure what to do with all this rambling. Go and attend a NASA club race if available in your area or SCCA race if available. In some areas of the country NASA has more participants than SCCA and vice versa. In my neck of the woods, SCCA and american sedan has more participants than NASA. The same holds true for NASA in certain areas of the country. SCCA and NASA have differing philosophies so ask questions and go race where you will have the most fun. My own opinion is SCCA is making a valiant attempt to consolidate two classes with a rule set that given a chance, I believe to make for the best racing, while containing costs as much as possible. As opposed to NASA philosophy, which is always open to new classes, such as CMC2 with the newer ls motored cars and having a split between the older CMC cars. In todays economy and shrinking car counts consolodation of classes is necessary in my opinion. If racing against a list of cars from Camaro,Mustang,GTO, Cadillac sounds like a cool class with a written set of rules that restrict unlimited spending but still allows some latitude to be creative than just a stock production car, then research more into what its all about. This may lead you to American Iron in NASA with a power to weight ratio, or towards American Sedan with its philosophy of having a set of rules to restrict spending but beyond just a stock CMC/CMC2 class. The long term picture needs to be analyzed and there is a very good backbone to whats going on in American Sedan, even if the rules aren't perfect right out of the box. Plus the opportunity to watch yourself on the Speed Channel at the national championships SCCA puts on is pretty cool in my book.

 

Absolutley agree... get out of your 'street car'... get into a track car. No matter what series you run in... get into a dedicated track car, in a series (cars) you enjoy... and you'll have a lot more fun!

Good luck in your choices!
Dave

 

Hey Dave,

How much these days for a GT1? and a Stohr or Speads DSR?

Thanks

 

Dave, welcome to the forums!

I agree on the 'bang for the buck' approach also... maybe find an already modded (to your liking or to the rules of the class you'll compete in) C5 FRC...

 

go for a used C5Z, lighter, cheaper and easier.

and to be honest, it's much cheaper to buy an already setup car then it is to do the setting up. especially if you're buying a car that is/was very competitive when it ran (granted drivers help a bit)

 

Ya know Dave this is a shame. I had you picked to drive a 800 hp derhaag GT1 corvette. Arrive and drive no less. But since you hate "carb cars" I guess I'll have to look elsewhere... SERIOUSLY, I love to race, and whether its carbed or efi doesn't matter to me.

BTW, the listed weight for the GTO is more than the F-body. Its a misprint. The GTO must run its stock brakes with those 17x9.5 wheels. Put 16x8 wheels and it can run a racing brake package. And more than likely, the f-body will shed some pounds once real data has proven it so. However, If JH showed up, at 3680#'s with his firebird, ls1 engine, prepped by phoenix to AS specs, I'd take you up on your bet that your t2 time would be beaten.

And you admitted you want to race AS. Although, the weight isn't where you would like to see it. Since you have a good understanding of whats taking place in AS, I think you would know why the baseline weights were set to then be adjusted accordingly. I'm sure you could write a book on overdog cars coming in touring, without track data to be classed and dominate. Solstice comes to mind doesn't it.

I'll bet you'll be back in SCCA in a couple seasons to contend at the runoffs. Your too competitive not to. And this supposed to be a compliment. Your a hell of a driver. Although a whiny one.

 

For what its worth... i've had 2 z06's... I traded the last one in on my 05' CTS-V and I LOVE IT... and I track it every chance I get.... heres some pics..

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0dKq9-ydB0

 

I'd 'arrive and drive' for sure! ... I only hate what I don't know. (competive side of me) I'm not an expert on Carbs... so for me... it's not an option... because if something goes wrong... I'd have to rely on someone else, and more then likely not know.

Last I saw... 3,680 was the GTO weight (Same as it was in T2 w/ 17X9.5's) and 3,680 for the Firebird (150lb Penalty & Same 16X8's)
Don't understimate the GTO's brakes... along w/ ABS... it will stop all over those AS cars unfortunately.

I do agree w/ the overdawg comment... boy do I know that all to well... I just felt that leaving the T2 weight would have still not allowed the F-body to win.. but it might have been able to be top 10. Whereas today... it won't be. And also on the overdawg part... look at them allowing other cars with 17X 9.5 (and 18X9.5 Caddy) wheels... that is where the class has a lot of risk. Put everyone on 16X8's... and it's much easier to manage. AS is at risk w/ the GTO & Caddy right now... that much I'd say... much stronger motors than the LS1 car... and more aggressive gearing + wider tires...

I would love to come back to SCCA... but I've learned the hard way... i've got to sit out... and watch the dust settle... hope they get it all ironed out... and stabilize the instability.

I do hate coming across as whiny... I'd just say unfortunately I am honest about the class changing, and I communicate their huge area's for opportunity. I called the Solstice in June... I called the BMW in '06...I called the STI's & EVO's overdawgness etc... But it's not a perfect world...

As for the price of a GT1 car, or DSR... anywhere from 20K to 30K on up. And LOTS of weekend prep.

 

Whatever you say Dave...

The car still had some brake system issues at the Glen. It will be complete for Pocono. The weight is a problem, especially in the higher speed esses.

Unfortunately, it has taken a lot of R & D expense in a short time to get it where it is, ready for Pocono in a few weeks. No one else is willing and no one else has the collective expertise in fourth gens to do this job at the level it's being done. So we shall see how it is at Pocono and then we will know whether or not it has to drop 200. My feeling is it does.

 

Hi Evan, I'm confused... you say 'whatever I say'... sarcastically I'm assuming... yet then you say the weight needs to come off? Isn't that all I'm saying?

Good Luck at Pocono!

 

Dave,

First of all, every time I read one of your posts it's like someone is shouting at me! Tone it down for Christ sake.

Secondly, I understand that you are pissed of at SCCA, and want to promote NASA as best you can these days and I have no beef with you there.

If I did not think the car would be competetive in the class I would not have bought it.

I have some faith in the AS advisory commitee, which is worlds apart in thinking from the Touring advisory comittee. I also think that the CRB is in "save the scca mode" right now and is actually listening to the membership.

I researched this build heavily and I'm not getting into that here but, the goal is not to beat your times, but to beat or meet top AS car times which are 1.5 to 3 seconds faster than you depending on what track.

I think you are a nice guy having met you , but you have a huge ego to say what you just said about anyone beating your times. I'm still on a learning curve driving this type of car and especially with no ABS, but I'm quite sure that JH or DK could beat your times anywhere with this car.

Maybe we will do that at PIR.

 

Been tossing around the idea of selling my 98 formula which is built for hpde. Will include a garage full of rims and tires with a new ls2 shortblock + extras. Not sure if it would be legal for any real race class though.. Lots of suspencion mods + 400rwh. Would have to sell it all however. Shoot me a pm if you have any interest.

 

My driving speaks for itself... JH & DK have nothing on it... And sorry... unlike you, I don't worship them or the Phoenix Conspiracy Camp!

I've out qualified DK in a car with 20 less HP... at M.O.... my first year their.
I qualified within .016 (that is 16 thousandths) of JH A-Sedan car... in my T2 car... at HPT in '06??

Those guys are good drivers in overdawg cars... they've earned the right to pick and choose... they are far from my beef w/ the SCCA. As are you.

But, thankfully... I do have track times at PIR, FIR, HPT, TH, MO, CS, WS, BW etc... so you should have plenty of tracks to compare to... And while I may not be your benchmark... the fact is... if you can't beat my T2 time... what is deal with running the car in AS?

In your last post I was going to let you off.. but since you sparked this gem... you also quoted "Unfortunately, it has taken a lot of R & D expense in a short time to get it where it is, ready for Pocono in a few weeks. No one else is willing and no one else has the collective expertise in fourth gens to do this job at the level it's being done.

Are you serious??? So NO ONE has been prepping 4th gens to 'this level'? What are these other 4th Gens out their being raced using then???

Get over it... the suspension is the same as the rest of A-Sedan... you have a F.I. Motor... that get's no help... and cannot run gear ratios, or rear end ratios... and have to be 400 lbs heavier (let alone 150 lbs heavier then T2)... yet you think you will go quicker???

You think it is a coincidence you're the only one running in AS with an LS1 F-Body?

Good Luck Evan... (And again... screaming... isn't unless you see CAPS... or exclamation marks <!!!>) FYI

Dave

 

I don't worship anyone dude. But they are recognized as great drivers, and although you have a good rep now as a driver, I have NEVER heard anyone put you on their level. In fact, the contrary.

You mean when you had the Kumho good for 3 lap specials and Don ran Goodyear GSCS tires. The same runoffsw he finished 3rd and had to burn the car down just to do that because YOU botched the start and held him up._ and that, my friend I have heard MANY people repeat because he would have won that race if not for you. In the car I own now no less.

Yeah, Try and find someone to back you up on that claim outside of the Solstice.

But, thankfully... I do have track times at PIR, FIR, HPT, TH, MO, CS, WS, BW etc... so you should have plenty of tracks to compare to... And while I may not be your benchmark... the fact is... if you can't beat my T2 time... what is deal with running the car in AS?

By all means don't let me off. We don't have a crystal ball like the all knowing Dave Schotz who can predict everything. Now that the car is finished, we will see what it can do and we won't know for sure until we actually put it on the track next week. And by ACTUALLY putting it on the track and getting data, we can have a reason to ask for less weight if, in fact it needs it. Doesn't really matter what you or I think until that happens.

Collectively, meaning you don't know who else is involved - could be Pratt and Miller for all you know - But then again you know it all.

Again, Maybe, Maybe not - This "fool" (you firing the first shot) is willing to try and believe that positive adjustments will come if it does not.

You think it is a coincidence you're the only one running in AS with an LS1 F-Body?

Thanks, but I find your sincerity questionable.


Dave[/QUOTE]

 

Well... again Evan... unfortunately... if we want to talk about 'Rumors' the only 'Rumors' I've heard... were that you are the reason the car won't get any adjustments... 'They' (black helicopters here) say that with a mid pack unknown driving... how can 'they' make any actual decisions?

And my 3 Lap wonder Kumho's were the same Kumho's I raced on! So sorry to shoot that theory down.

And yes... I botched the start... my 3rd Gear was going... and I didn't have the money to replace the entire trans at the race... I just kept flushing the tranny fluid in between sessions... and still kept the car top 10... when I sold the car (immediately after the race) the owner couldn't even get the car to go into 3rd gear... and asked how I raced with it that way!

You do unfortunately worship those guys... as well as the phoenix camp... and it's too bad because you are a good guy... from what I've meant...

And while you may take this as all personal... the truth is, with us both being local, I would even be willing to help you make a case for you car/class...

While you may feel too much animosity for me to take alap in your car, and show 'them' that your car cannot run T2 times (this isn't a dig... this is just a sad fact based on how they've classed the car).

I would be willing to let you take my car... in T2 Trim, or American Sedan Trim... and do a couple laps so that you can share the differences. My car is prepped to AS levels... and being run restricted in CMC... We can pull the plate out.. and let you have at it... and show the difference between 3680... and 3380 (where I think the car should be)... Now I also feel... if you let me take a lap in your AS car... it would say a lot... on a track like PIR or FIR... to how much help the car may need.

I'm not your enemy in this one... but I realize it will be difficult for your 'Phoenix Camp' blood to ask for assistance... my car is here for the testing if you need it...

You missed the response to how the legendary JH was only .016 faster in AS than my 3630 T2 car that year? And... yes... DK can blame me for 2005... and I can blame him 2007!

PS... I missed one more claim... that I made 75 years ago... bringing turbo cars into T2... would kill T2... it did... and an NA car hasn't won since the Turbo Cars have been involved.

 

Been out of pocket for a few days .... went racin'

Dave ... 3680? Is that a typo? They didn't weigh that much off the show room floor!

In a series where platform parity is key and the measuring stick is driver v driver, 150lbs is HUGE! It's like carrying around a second driver!

EFI power band be damed, accelerating and slowing that extra weight is a death sentence.

In trying to read and keep up, it appears that

trj20 is saying weight adjustments will be made if parity isn't achievable.

And Dave is saying someone would have to be stoopid to build a car with an immediate #150 disadvantage. So claiming "adjustments will be made" is a moot point.

Is that close?

One thing I haven't seen addressed is when comparing the Robello-esque 305s vs the LSx platform in a 4th gen is there any consideration given to engine/platform development as it relates to fuel economy (LSx cars don't have to carry as much fuel), weight distribution (LSx car will have ~75lbs less nose weight) and reliability (gotta finish in order to win).

 

Hi Mitch... I thought (and hoped) 3680 was a typo as well... but it isn't.

That is what an LS1 F-Body must weight in A-Sedan... against 3280 302 & 305 cars... making the same RWHP... and less torque.

150lbs is Huge... which is why I know they won't even beat my T2 times... but 400lbs (vs. the current A-Sedan Cars) is udderly ridiculous.

However, I must admit, I understand the concern of not allowing an overdawg to come into the class brand new... Gawd knows... I've seen it first hand in 2005 & 2007... But the way they've classed the current LS1 F-Body's.. they have no shot... And unfortunately... I think because the LS-2 GTO is doing well... they feel the F-Body will only be better... but the truth is... The GTO get's the same weight... another 50RWHP... and 17X9's... on 275's!

Rocket Science... this isn't.

Political BS... unfortunately it is.

Peace,

Dave