383 ls1
01-03-2017, 07:38 PM
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383 ls1 Hi I am building my ls1 into a fully forged bottom end 383 stroker. Probably going to run ported 243 heads and a big cam with fast 102/102 looking to get around 500 whp will be also getting bigger fuel / oil pump as well and 80lb injectors anyone with a similar build or ideas please help .
01-03-2017, 09:09 PM
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NA? 500 RWHP, 383" MMS 223 Sportsman Heads,
MAMOFIED FAST 102, if you go for better heads &
Ported 102 you can reach 500 with a much smaller
And more driver friendly cam, and have wicked
Throttle response. Have Tony spec the
Cam, and have Kip @ Cam Motion grind it for you.
42 lb injectors will be more than enough.
Ported stock oil pump & 255 lph fuel pump
Would work for street/strip.
That's a start & my .02.
Good Luck
MAMOFIED FAST 102, if you go for better heads &
Ported 102 you can reach 500 with a much smaller
And more driver friendly cam, and have wicked
Throttle response. Have Tony spec the
Cam, and have Kip @ Cam Motion grind it for you.
42 lb injectors will be more than enough.
Ported stock oil pump & 255 lph fuel pump
Would work for street/strip.
That's a start & my .02.
Good Luck
01-04-2017, 01:39 PM
#3
WS6Seth,
My experience with a 383 LS1 built. Budget & money are the key factors to consider before selecting any parts. How much are you willing to spend on the engine? This has to be tempered by the cars other needs. My 91 RS had nearly 400,000 miles on the original drive line. I would have loved to have had a custom built LS7 for the RS but transmission, rear end, paint & interior were also needed for the RS. Given the budget, rebuilding a tired LS1 as a 383 and using parts I had accumulated over the years was the best option.
One of my friends who is a SAM grad and works in professional racing built the motor. He worked with me on the labor cost because I had referred many friends and car club members to him over the years. He also did the heads & cam install for my 99 TA long ago. I knew the quality of work and attention to detail was outstanding. This also helped keep my engine build cost reasonable.
Working with a vendor's is the easiest way to get a decent combination. If your budget allows dump the 3.9 bore LS1 block for a LS2/LS3 block with 4.0+ bore. More cubes = more hp from the given set of heads.
Get the best cylinder heads you can find and afford for the project. If money isn't an issue go for ported aftermarket castings. Decide your hp goal. My friend building the engine gave input on all part selection keeping an eye on finishing the motor with out breaking my budget and keeping it quality.
I wanted to be able to make 600+ rear hp. At least 425 NA at wheels & 600+ with power adder. Based on my research at the time, TEA's LS6 Stage 2.5 with the NOS exhaust port was my best choice. Brian Tooley hand finished the CNC'd heads. With the supporting parts these are capable of 500+ NA at the wheels with a 3.9 bore LS1. The heads are capable of 550+ NA in a big bore motor with the correct valves. I love the fact that these heads look so factory and so very stock to the uninformed.
We flow tested various intake manifold with the TEA heads. Short version my budget supported an LS6 intake and ported TB. This was upgraded to a 102 FAST LSXRT & NW 102 TB before the motor was installed in the car. The LSXRT was replaced after a few months due to driveability issues. After a dozen or so sessions with two professional tuners who did their best, I wasn't happy with the driveability. It may be possible to tune an LSXRT or LSXR set up to drive like stock, I haven't seen a 102 TB car like that yet. Find out what tuning resources are available to you and decide according. If you can tune yourself and like to fiddle the 102 set up will be fun to dial in. A Peak Performance radical ported LS6 intake with TPiS 90/92 snout replaced the LSXRT and it drives perfect. The car also gained 2 peak hp. I suspect this is due to the small 229 cam and would expect the LSXRT to excel with more cam. One of my friends who thinks a 224 cam in a LS1 is too much acknowledged this set up drives exactly like a mild mannered stock 346 putting around in town and bumper to bumper traffic.
I think 232/240 with around .600 lift is a good starting point for a cam if one is willing to give up a little driveability. Talk to a vendor and the cam gurus.
There are some haters on this forum that will blast Comp Cams at the drop of a hat. I've had outstanding results with Comp Cams. Back in the day no one figured an XE-R cam would be able to go 100,000 miles reliably with no issues, but mine in the 99 TA has 120,000+ miles. New springs, warm up & maintenance is the key.
With that said there are newer more valve spring friendly lobes than the now old but tried and true XE-R. Read up on cam lobes as their is a lot of good discussion. Talking with BTR, Pat G, Predator Z, Brian Tooley, Ed Curtis, or one of the other renown guru's can really help. While no one talks about the XE lobe these days, the XE is a well proven lobe with excellent longevity with the correct springs. My 72 vette has a 230/236 XE lobe cam - far less hassle to maintain than one of the killer aggressive ramp cams...
Most import fact - every part must be carefully checked by the engine builder. Never accept anything from any shop or vendor at face value. Example - All cylinder heads must come apart and be checked. Springs checked for pressure, install height checked, valve size checked, and so on. The cam needs to be checked on a cam doctor to confirm it is correct. Everything needs to be inspected. All sorts of potential disasters are avoided by doing this and quality improved. Some of the wizards on here will say slap the parts on and don't check its a waste of time and money. Not checking piston to valve clearance is a classic, installing cams dot to dot without degreeing in another. Check everything. Mock it up and check it. My engine builder caught so many issues doing this it wasn't open to discussion. No EGR LS1 intakes passed off as LS6 intakes, cylinder heads ready to install with metal shavings in the intake ports, headers with holes in the welds that would leak, primaries full of welding slag, engine blocks decked wrong by the machine shop, wrong cam shipped, set of mismatched pistons shipped as a set, engine blocks that were bored but not honed by certain local machine shop. They charged for the hone but forgot to actually do it. New heads that had been decked .030 by someone. Trust nothing your told about any part going into an engine until its checked and verified.
The stock 28.8 pound injectors were replaced with 42 pound ones. One of the tuners endlessly complained the injectors were too big and the stock 28.8's would have worked fine to 475 rwhp. Several different times he glared and asked if they were really 60# or 80# pounders. This all occured with the LSXRT. I don't recall the tuner uttering about a single issue or whiney remark about the 42# pound injectors being tuned with the modified LS6 intake. The other tuner said 36# pounds NA would have been easier to dial in and a better choice if a hidden NOS system being added later wasn't planned.
I don't like over cammed cars. I like nice mannered cars so we used an old favorite the MMS 229/229 v2.1 .578 lift 114 LSA cam. The valve train is quite. I've been told i should put a cam in the car several times and nice stock LS1. This makes the degree of BUTT-HURT that soon follows all the more entertaining. We left at least 15-25 hp on table with the smaller cam choice. However a 200hp shot of NOS easily makes up for that. I
The bigger low lash solid roller cams are probably worth 30 to 60 hp more than the cam I selected. I don't think 100,000+ mile street durability has been demonstrated with LLSR cams yet. If it is I might upgrade the cam later.
Given the goal of shifting 6200 to 6500 rpm we selected LS7 lifters and custom 3/8 push rods. We didn't want any push rod deflection. The heads were modified for the push rods. The valve train is quite and upper rpm is stable with peak power holding like a table top.
We discussed the pros and cons of various aftermarket rockers and stock rockers would have been OK with cam selected. Stock rockers aren't ideal with .600+ lift cams due to wipe pattern and side loading. I've ran stock rockers with a 224 XE-R cam .581 lift cam for over 120,000+ miles on my 99TA and beat on the car etc so based on my experience, I don't worry too much with stock rockers at .580ish lift. We ended up using Jesel 1.7 shaft mounted roller rockers. These require valve cover spacers or new valve covers. No one hardley anyone seems to notice the spacers and most of the ones that do seem to assume its a ricey look I picked because I couldn't buy new valve covers. Some have even said so. The Jesels were over kill for my application but I've had piece of mind with them. No worry about needle bearings etc or trunnion upgrades etc.The Yella Terra's were our other top canidate. I like YT's oil hole for the push rod & tapered cup to retain a little oil for the rocker & push rod. I plan to try YT on my next engine build.
The dark voodoo science of selecting all bearings, rings, setting clearances and ring gap were my engine builder's choice.
Likewise, my engine builder had free rein to select pistons. He went with a version of Wiseco's special LS stroker piston that was coated to reduce friction. My 383 LS1 doesn't burn oil or have piston slap rock issues. Carefully, discuss with your engine builder or Wiseco to select the best piston. We built for 11.3 to 1 compression. We discussed going 12 to 1 compression but decided against it because E85 & a Procharger might be fun to add later.
We felt the 4 inch forged Callies Compstar crank was most suitable for our hp levels with a good safety margin. I got lucky and scored a .010 under on the rod bearing Callies Dragonslayer. Like a dummy, I had the vendor rough balance the crank. With our light weight Wiseco pistons and Callies rods, the crank turned out way too heavy and had to have a lot of heavy metal removed. My engine builder joked that crank had enough heavy metal in it to balance a big diesel piston with very heavy set of rods.He said he'd never seen so much weight that had been added have to be removed to balance a crank. The shop that sold me the crank is out of business. Custom crank scrapper was fabbed up and the stock windage tray tweaked for the 4 inch Callies crank.
Ported Katech oil pump and Comp Cams double roller adjustable roller timing set rounded out the remaining details.
I've been delighted with the 383 LS1, my only regret is not spending the extra cash for an LS7 block.
My 383 LS1 made 465 rwhp & 442rwtq. There are many modded LS2/LS3 that make more power. There are even LS1 heads & cam set ups that make 500rwhp+. On another dyno another LS1 383 with as cast 245 AFR heads, 232/240 .600+ lift cam, 102 LSXR intake & 102 TB made the same hp & tq as my 383 LS1.
I'm very happy with my almost stock looking 383 LS1, the power it makes and most of all its 100% drive like stock manners.
My experience with a 383 LS1 built. Budget & money are the key factors to consider before selecting any parts. How much are you willing to spend on the engine? This has to be tempered by the cars other needs. My 91 RS had nearly 400,000 miles on the original drive line. I would have loved to have had a custom built LS7 for the RS but transmission, rear end, paint & interior were also needed for the RS. Given the budget, rebuilding a tired LS1 as a 383 and using parts I had accumulated over the years was the best option.
One of my friends who is a SAM grad and works in professional racing built the motor. He worked with me on the labor cost because I had referred many friends and car club members to him over the years. He also did the heads & cam install for my 99 TA long ago. I knew the quality of work and attention to detail was outstanding. This also helped keep my engine build cost reasonable.
Working with a vendor's is the easiest way to get a decent combination. If your budget allows dump the 3.9 bore LS1 block for a LS2/LS3 block with 4.0+ bore. More cubes = more hp from the given set of heads.
Get the best cylinder heads you can find and afford for the project. If money isn't an issue go for ported aftermarket castings. Decide your hp goal. My friend building the engine gave input on all part selection keeping an eye on finishing the motor with out breaking my budget and keeping it quality.
I wanted to be able to make 600+ rear hp. At least 425 NA at wheels & 600+ with power adder. Based on my research at the time, TEA's LS6 Stage 2.5 with the NOS exhaust port was my best choice. Brian Tooley hand finished the CNC'd heads. With the supporting parts these are capable of 500+ NA at the wheels with a 3.9 bore LS1. The heads are capable of 550+ NA in a big bore motor with the correct valves. I love the fact that these heads look so factory and so very stock to the uninformed.
We flow tested various intake manifold with the TEA heads. Short version my budget supported an LS6 intake and ported TB. This was upgraded to a 102 FAST LSXRT & NW 102 TB before the motor was installed in the car. The LSXRT was replaced after a few months due to driveability issues. After a dozen or so sessions with two professional tuners who did their best, I wasn't happy with the driveability. It may be possible to tune an LSXRT or LSXR set up to drive like stock, I haven't seen a 102 TB car like that yet. Find out what tuning resources are available to you and decide according. If you can tune yourself and like to fiddle the 102 set up will be fun to dial in. A Peak Performance radical ported LS6 intake with TPiS 90/92 snout replaced the LSXRT and it drives perfect. The car also gained 2 peak hp. I suspect this is due to the small 229 cam and would expect the LSXRT to excel with more cam. One of my friends who thinks a 224 cam in a LS1 is too much acknowledged this set up drives exactly like a mild mannered stock 346 putting around in town and bumper to bumper traffic.
I think 232/240 with around .600 lift is a good starting point for a cam if one is willing to give up a little driveability. Talk to a vendor and the cam gurus.
There are some haters on this forum that will blast Comp Cams at the drop of a hat. I've had outstanding results with Comp Cams. Back in the day no one figured an XE-R cam would be able to go 100,000 miles reliably with no issues, but mine in the 99 TA has 120,000+ miles. New springs, warm up & maintenance is the key.
With that said there are newer more valve spring friendly lobes than the now old but tried and true XE-R. Read up on cam lobes as their is a lot of good discussion. Talking with BTR, Pat G, Predator Z, Brian Tooley, Ed Curtis, or one of the other renown guru's can really help. While no one talks about the XE lobe these days, the XE is a well proven lobe with excellent longevity with the correct springs. My 72 vette has a 230/236 XE lobe cam - far less hassle to maintain than one of the killer aggressive ramp cams...
Most import fact - every part must be carefully checked by the engine builder. Never accept anything from any shop or vendor at face value. Example - All cylinder heads must come apart and be checked. Springs checked for pressure, install height checked, valve size checked, and so on. The cam needs to be checked on a cam doctor to confirm it is correct. Everything needs to be inspected. All sorts of potential disasters are avoided by doing this and quality improved. Some of the wizards on here will say slap the parts on and don't check its a waste of time and money. Not checking piston to valve clearance is a classic, installing cams dot to dot without degreeing in another. Check everything. Mock it up and check it. My engine builder caught so many issues doing this it wasn't open to discussion. No EGR LS1 intakes passed off as LS6 intakes, cylinder heads ready to install with metal shavings in the intake ports, headers with holes in the welds that would leak, primaries full of welding slag, engine blocks decked wrong by the machine shop, wrong cam shipped, set of mismatched pistons shipped as a set, engine blocks that were bored but not honed by certain local machine shop. They charged for the hone but forgot to actually do it. New heads that had been decked .030 by someone. Trust nothing your told about any part going into an engine until its checked and verified.
The stock 28.8 pound injectors were replaced with 42 pound ones. One of the tuners endlessly complained the injectors were too big and the stock 28.8's would have worked fine to 475 rwhp. Several different times he glared and asked if they were really 60# or 80# pounders. This all occured with the LSXRT. I don't recall the tuner uttering about a single issue or whiney remark about the 42# pound injectors being tuned with the modified LS6 intake. The other tuner said 36# pounds NA would have been easier to dial in and a better choice if a hidden NOS system being added later wasn't planned.
I don't like over cammed cars. I like nice mannered cars so we used an old favorite the MMS 229/229 v2.1 .578 lift 114 LSA cam. The valve train is quite. I've been told i should put a cam in the car several times and nice stock LS1. This makes the degree of BUTT-HURT that soon follows all the more entertaining. We left at least 15-25 hp on table with the smaller cam choice. However a 200hp shot of NOS easily makes up for that. I
The bigger low lash solid roller cams are probably worth 30 to 60 hp more than the cam I selected. I don't think 100,000+ mile street durability has been demonstrated with LLSR cams yet. If it is I might upgrade the cam later.
Given the goal of shifting 6200 to 6500 rpm we selected LS7 lifters and custom 3/8 push rods. We didn't want any push rod deflection. The heads were modified for the push rods. The valve train is quite and upper rpm is stable with peak power holding like a table top.
We discussed the pros and cons of various aftermarket rockers and stock rockers would have been OK with cam selected. Stock rockers aren't ideal with .600+ lift cams due to wipe pattern and side loading. I've ran stock rockers with a 224 XE-R cam .581 lift cam for over 120,000+ miles on my 99TA and beat on the car etc so based on my experience, I don't worry too much with stock rockers at .580ish lift. We ended up using Jesel 1.7 shaft mounted roller rockers. These require valve cover spacers or new valve covers. No one hardley anyone seems to notice the spacers and most of the ones that do seem to assume its a ricey look I picked because I couldn't buy new valve covers. Some have even said so. The Jesels were over kill for my application but I've had piece of mind with them. No worry about needle bearings etc or trunnion upgrades etc.The Yella Terra's were our other top canidate. I like YT's oil hole for the push rod & tapered cup to retain a little oil for the rocker & push rod. I plan to try YT on my next engine build.
The dark voodoo science of selecting all bearings, rings, setting clearances and ring gap were my engine builder's choice.
Likewise, my engine builder had free rein to select pistons. He went with a version of Wiseco's special LS stroker piston that was coated to reduce friction. My 383 LS1 doesn't burn oil or have piston slap rock issues. Carefully, discuss with your engine builder or Wiseco to select the best piston. We built for 11.3 to 1 compression. We discussed going 12 to 1 compression but decided against it because E85 & a Procharger might be fun to add later.
We felt the 4 inch forged Callies Compstar crank was most suitable for our hp levels with a good safety margin. I got lucky and scored a .010 under on the rod bearing Callies Dragonslayer. Like a dummy, I had the vendor rough balance the crank. With our light weight Wiseco pistons and Callies rods, the crank turned out way too heavy and had to have a lot of heavy metal removed. My engine builder joked that crank had enough heavy metal in it to balance a big diesel piston with very heavy set of rods.He said he'd never seen so much weight that had been added have to be removed to balance a crank. The shop that sold me the crank is out of business. Custom crank scrapper was fabbed up and the stock windage tray tweaked for the 4 inch Callies crank.
Ported Katech oil pump and Comp Cams double roller adjustable roller timing set rounded out the remaining details.
I've been delighted with the 383 LS1, my only regret is not spending the extra cash for an LS7 block.
My 383 LS1 made 465 rwhp & 442rwtq. There are many modded LS2/LS3 that make more power. There are even LS1 heads & cam set ups that make 500rwhp+. On another dyno another LS1 383 with as cast 245 AFR heads, 232/240 .600+ lift cam, 102 LSXR intake & 102 TB made the same hp & tq as my 383 LS1.
I'm very happy with my almost stock looking 383 LS1, the power it makes and most of all its 100% drive like stock manners.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 01-04-2017 at 02:04 PM.
01-04-2017, 03:27 PM
#4
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Great Post and advice 99 Black Bird T/A.
i would just add that all AFR LS Heads are CNC Ported as opposed to "as cast",
AFR 245 wrong choice on a 383" stroker, not sure the valves even fit.
AFR claims they require minimum 4.0" Bore.
A +6 degree exhaust split would be plenty for a NA 383"
with MMS 223 for example 229/235 on a 114+3 would drive
very docile, and for ease of tuning a 90-92 MM TB with the spacer
ring (with Fast 102) would supply more than enough CFM for 550+ RWHP,
and still give the benefits of the plenum and runners over the FAST 92,
which wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Any way again a helluva post and great blue print for the OP,
just wanted to add a little more food for thought.
i would just add that all AFR LS Heads are CNC Ported as opposed to "as cast",
AFR 245 wrong choice on a 383" stroker, not sure the valves even fit.
AFR claims they require minimum 4.0" Bore.
A +6 degree exhaust split would be plenty for a NA 383"
with MMS 223 for example 229/235 on a 114+3 would drive
very docile, and for ease of tuning a 90-92 MM TB with the spacer
ring (with Fast 102) would supply more than enough CFM for 550+ RWHP,
and still give the benefits of the plenum and runners over the FAST 92,
which wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Any way again a helluva post and great blue print for the OP,
just wanted to add a little more food for thought.
01-04-2017, 03:40 PM
#5
Navy, thank you for the correction on the as cast vs CNC'd for the AFR LS's, careless wording on my part. The 245's on 3.9 bore - I confess to parroting what I was told I'm sure they were the ones for the 3.9 bore.
I'm kicking around another 383 LS build to clear out the remaining spare parts. The engine masters winning shop estimated $2500 to $3000 in labor & machine work for a LS 383 plus parts. Likewise, for a LS 346 $2000 to $2500 this is a trusty worthy shop excellent reputation. Just proving that for reference purposes.
Thank you
I'm sure they were the ones for the 3.9 bore.I'm kicking around another 383 LS build to clear out the remaining spare parts. The engine masters winning shop estimated $2500 to $3000 in labor & machine work for a LS 383 plus parts. Likewise, for a LS 346 $2000 to $2500 this is a trusty worthy shop excellent reputation. Just proving that for reference purposes.
Thank you
01-04-2017, 05:19 PM
#6
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As a generalization, I tend to see 383's making similar peak HP numbers as their 346 counterparts, assuming similar builds. Usually up about 30 on torque, but peak HP pretty close. The 383 will generally hit the number at a lower peak RPM and then fall off faster due to the longer stroke increasing internal resistance of the engine.
if you're planning this thing for the track, I'd suggest bore vs stroke as the approach to increase cubes. You'll hit higher peak HP and higher RPM, which will allow you to stretch your gears further.
Look at NavyBlue's 396 in the dyno section and find any NA 3.9" bore 383 hitting those numbers.
if you're planning this thing for the track, I'd suggest bore vs stroke as the approach to increase cubes. You'll hit higher peak HP and higher RPM, which will allow you to stretch your gears further.
Look at NavyBlue's 396 in the dyno section and find any NA 3.9" bore 383 hitting those numbers.
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01-05-2017, 04:30 PM
#10
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Little 383 here. All I would offer is try to build the combo for what you want. Is around 500rwhp your biggest goal? That can easily be done. More of a race car/street car? I also think better heads than ported 243s would do you well. Cam selection & matching to your combo is very important=custom grind. A lot of this may have already been said but I didn't read all of 99 Blacks post.
My combo is 235/239 116+2, Morel 5315 lifters, PRC 215 heads, around 11.5 compression, ported fast 92/92, 1 3/4 headers, vacuum pump. Runs great for street driving & carries power very well, for what it is, to 7k. Last dyno pull was 494/446.
My combo is 235/239 116+2, Morel 5315 lifters, PRC 215 heads, around 11.5 compression, ported fast 92/92, 1 3/4 headers, vacuum pump. Runs great for street driving & carries power very well, for what it is, to 7k. Last dyno pull was 494/446.
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Bill GTO (11-07-2021)
01-05-2017, 07:53 PM
#11
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Seth, very doable (500rwhp) 383 here and really pleased with the results but as mentioned the larger bore blocks, 6.0s and LS3 are just a better all around starting point. If you must build that 383 you won't be disappointed, mine has shown as high as 517rwhp on one Dyno and 480rwhp/443tq. on the most conservative Dyno in these parts, with 6300/5000rpm peak hp/tq. 42lb LS3 injectors and a Cheepo 92mm eBay TB. It can be done easily with less than premium parts, cyl. Heads and cam selection will be key, I'm using Dart 225 heads.
01-08-2017, 11:39 PM
#13
Seth, very doable (500rwhp) 383 here and really pleased with the results but as mentioned the larger bore blocks, 6.0s and LS3 are just a better all around starting point. If you must build that 383 you won't be disappointed, mine has shown as high as 517rwhp on one Dyno and 480rwhp/443tq. on the most conservative Dyno in these parts, with 6300/5000rpm peak hp/tq. 42lb LS3 injectors and a Cheepo 92mm eBay TB. It can be done easily with less than premium parts, cyl. Heads and cam selection will be key, I'm using Dart 225 heads.
01-13-2017, 09:00 PM
#14
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Haven't tried a Fast yet, I have an LSXRT (ported) and Holley EFI 105mm TB ready to swap at sometime, I'm hoping for more torque and more rpm from that future swap. The Edelbrock pro flo is more suitable for F.I. But works well.