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Well you have some info but not all. You are changing the timing with the LNC box as I believe I read in your post. Suggest having them set the limiter to 6,800 and shift points 1to 2 at 6,400 and 2 to 3 at 6,600. You have to put at least 2 new plugs in and start car make pass and when you cross finish line shut off car. Coast off track pull both plugs throw two other plugs in and drive back to pit. Pick 5 and 6 first then try 7 and 8 on the next pass. You need 12.9 to 13.1 NA. Looks like they put a very safe NA tune in the car. So you are leaving some ET and MPH on the table.
What type of fuel are you running and what are the plugs gapped at? Suggest staying away from anything higher then 100 shot until you get your tune better. You should be adjusting AFR by changing fuel jets. Looked like you deep staged on the 10.80 pass that increases ET and since you let out that drops MPH. My guess is that may have saved your engine. I would say with the AFR down in the 10s it was not to happy. Good you pulled more timing.
Your NA runs are a combination of weight and the converter slowing 60 foot times. Could it be faster yes but it is doing pretty good.
The 100% stock 91K 1998 346 engine in my Formula with headers, Y pipe and tail pipe, air lid with LS1 intake at 3,670 lbs. ran between 11.94 best to 12. 10s all day long. It produced 330 hp and 350 tq before I installed th400, converter and heavy 9 inch rear with 3.70 gears. My guess is that reduced the hp numbers somewhat but it sure did run good after those 3 mods.
Hope this helps. Good luck and be safe.
N2
Your Formula is some kind of freak because those are awesome numbers for that. I do agree AFR's are quite obviously far too rich but I am contributing that to the FAST 92 install since it was fine prior to that and I haven't been able to get a re tune yet. I am only guessing and do not have HP TUNERS to log anything, but Im thinking the added air flow is causing computer to add fuel to compensate and not run lean. I run 93 octane fuel with the unfortunate industry standard 10% ethanol, and when I know I'm going to spray it I'll dump a bottle of Torco or STP octane booster in the tank (may do nothing but hell it's worth the $6 to me)...I was running 91 octane ethanol free fuel but tuner suggested against it and said the 93 is better even with the ethanol content.
I am using LNC box to pull timing. After the original tune before FAST 92 and dana 60 install, and on first trip to track we data logged with tuner's laptop (he goes to track with all his customers after a tune for fine tuning adjustments). Pulling 6 degrees on box and kicking 150 shot...things seemed to be dialed in very very well. AFR's were at around 12.8 on motor and 11.5 on spray give or take .2 here and there. Car ran excellent not a hiccup in sight and computer pulled no timing from the tune. On the dyno it made its best numbers on 150 shot with 5 degrees pulled, but why not keep it at 6 to be safe. My tuner has always stayed on the cautious side when tuning, all of his tunes are "safe" he doesn't believe in aggressive tunes, it may be leaving a few hp and maybe 1 mph on the table but I'd rather not blow it up so I agree with his philosophy there.... We also run br7's gapped at around 0.32 if i remember correctly. When on the dyno originally started with TR6's and after only a 50 shot they pulled and they showed some extra heat. Went to br7's and made a 150 pull and shut car down. Pulled two plugs and cut the strap. The 7's show no sign of detonation or excessive heat whatsoever... and they still now actually look almost perfectly milk chocolate brown even with the high 10 AFR which would indicate quite a rich mixture.
Now that i have installed this FAST 92 I am getting it back to them for a re tune and seeing if maybe we can make some shift point/rev limiter adjustments and maybe even kick this 200 shot to the car all the time. I may need to go to a colder br8 plug adjust the tune a bit, but I think with a proper setup my little stock lq4 will take a 200 now and again. Its not like i spray the **** out of it all season. This entire motor has maybe 8 nitrous passes on it all together since being tuned. 6 total at the track and 2 on the street.
Even though I know what it is and does, I actually deep staged by accident on that pass to be honest, and I don't understand who WOULDNT pull more timing when upping from 150-200 shot. I would definitely adjust AFR using fuel jets if I wasnt already running super rich on motor, like i said tune was dead nuts perfect in my opinion prior to my intake and throttle body install. That threw it off.....being in the 10's way way too rich... however I felt safe because Id rather run a little fat and cool than lean and hot any day of the week, It's not something I'd continue to run all season but one pass was fine.
I see now you did not really want feedback or guidance with you car. Let me say I have always tried my best to help folks any way possible on this site.
Regarding my car and how it performs. It is still a 346 CI LS and is a true pump gas street engine nothing fancy at all. It is just good thought out parts and a good running car. At 3,315 lbs it has run a best of 10.47 NA and 9.92 on 125 shot of nitrous. The car on a dyno put down 400hp last time it was on one several years ago. No changes have been made since. Plenty of videos in my threads that I have on this site.
l could share more things to help you but I am not sure you would use the info.
I wish you the best of luck on improving your cars performance.
I see now you did not really want feedback or guidance with you car. Let me say I have always tried my best to help folks any way possible on this site.
Regarding my car and how it performs. It is still a 346 CI LS and is a true pump gas street engine nothing fancy at all. It is just good thought out parts and a good running car. At 3,315 lbs it has run a best of 10.47 NA and 9.92 on 125 shot of nitrous. The car on a dyno put down 400hp last time it was on one several years ago. No changes have been made since. Plenty of videos in my threads that I have on this site.
l could share more things to help you but I am not sure you would use the info.
I wish you the best of luck on improving your cars performance.
N2
oh man you're taking my response all wrong here....my comment about it being a freak was commending you not criticizing or disbelieving. And my rebuddles to the advice given were elaborating on what I HAVE done as I went along. I was looking for better methods in your advice. I thought I had already kind of done some of the things you suggested...but in my method...so I was explaining in hopes you'd toss back more ideas or thoughts on changing things. That's all brother no sarcasm and your response was appreciated.
I was looking at your slip thinking either you were running out of gear OR you were upshifting way past the 1/8, killing your top end. You did great to launch with front sway still attached.
Considered a lithium battery? You'd drop 30 lbs off the nose AND you wouldn't have to add all that copper wire.
Man you're right.....so much potential in that combo yet
All his front end stuff, battery relocation and killing the sway bar....there's an 11.40 on ***** yet to be had and prolly a 10.teen on the **** but I'm willing to bet that converter is already "rolled over" hence his low trap numbers.....I'd pull that thing and have it cut open, tightened the hell up, and go back to hosing the **** outta it.....the 3.73 gear seems right for that size tire
Man you're right.....so much potential in that combo yet
All his front end stuff, battery relocation and killing the sway bar....there's an 11.40 on ***** yet to be had and prolly a 10.teen on the **** but I'm willing to bet that converter is already "rolled over" hence his low trap numbers.....I'd pull that thing and have it cut open, tightened the hell up, and go back to hosing the **** outta it.....the 3.73 gear seems right for that size tire
I hope you're right!!! That would be great.. I actually pulled the front sway bar a couple of days ago out of boredom. It was sitting up on the trailer and I could basically reach in and pull the end links without much effort. I still need to find some time to get the front suspension parts switched over, and the battery into the back...
It's not going to be a quick swap I imagine...
Stored up and ready to go on is: Battery relocation kit, manual steering, tubular k and a arms, qa1 coilovers, SJM ABS block delete with line lock and new brake lines...I'm really hoping this saves me 250lbs off front end
maybe a total of 200lbs off the car... Is this wishful thinking?
What do you mean when you say the converter is "rolled over" I don't follow... please elaborate
I don't know if I mentioned here but I just upgraded to a Hoosier 28x10.5 slick...found a great deal on a new set locally... no more Mickey Thompson drag radials.
What do you mean when you say the converter is "rolled over" I don't follow... please elaborate
Nitrous is actually the buffer that tries to mellow the shear insanity of the oxygen
The air we breathe is roughly 20% oxygen.....The oxygen level in Nitrous is roughly 33%....using the nitrogen to calm the insanity...hence why they call it a "HIT"
the torque spike is literally so outrageous that the fins inside the converter can bend and "roll over" so now the distance between them is greater allowing more fluid to pass between them. LESS FLUID SQUEEZING means less power is being transfered to the driveline......a sloppy converter will stall higher than it was originally designed for and can often sixty foot well but the mile per hour suffers.......in your case both N/A AND on the NOS hit
If you ever talk to or read about NHRA super stock racers; they will often try 20 or 30 different torque converters before they find the exact one that will launch stupid (apply torque multiplication off the brake) and then lock up well going down the track in order to capture that mile per hour that the horsepower of the engine is making. In many cases they can sixty as well or better than the stick cars but usually suffer a bit on the mile per hour comparatively since it's still a viscous coupling device
98TA Driver had the fastest bolt-ons C5 at 10.75 and like 124.65 mph...he sixty foot like a 1.38 with a circle D 5-x converter but then engaged the lockup function at about the 1000 foot mark to gain almost 2 full miles per hour....very smart and effective
Converters are really quite an interesting product and if you do your homework, talk to the right people, and gets the correct one (which yours could be fixed/enhanced) then I'm sure it'll pay huge dividends for your quest..........good luck to ya.........
Nitrous is actually the buffer that tries to mellow the shear insanity of the oxygen
The air we breathe is roughly 20% oxygen.....The oxygen level in Nitrous is roughly 33%....using the nitrogen to calm the insanity...hence why they call it a "HIT"
the torque spike is literally so outrageous that the fins inside the converter can bend and "roll over" so now the distance between them is greater allowing more
fluid to pass between them. LESS FLUID SQUEEZING means less power is being transfered to the driveline......a sloppy converter will stall higher than it was originally designed for and can often sixty foot well but the mile per hour suffers.......in your case both N/A AND on the NOS hit
If you ever talk to or read about NHRA super stock racers; they will often try 20 or 30 different torque converters before they find the exact one that will launch stupid (apply torque multiplication off the brake) and then lock up well going down the track in order to capture that mile per hour that the horsepower of the engine is making. In many cases they can sixty as well or better than the stick cars but usually suffer a bit on the mile per hour comparatively since it's still a viscous coupling device
98TA Driver had the fastest bolt-ons C5 at 10.75 and like 124.65 mph...he sixty foot like a 1.38 with a circle D 5-x converter but then engaged the lockup function at about the 1000 foot mark to gain almost 2 full miles per hour....very smart and effective
Converters are really quite an interesting product and if you do your homework, talk to the right people, and gets the correct one (which yours could be fixed/enhanced) then I'm sure it'll pay huge dividends for your quest..........good luck to ya.........
Wow that was a really really good response. Very easy for me to follow and completely understand. Thank you for the info. You suggest maybe pulling my precision out and sending it back to them for some reworking and checking or maybe sending to another place you've used to have it worked? Or do you think I'm better off going with a completely different converter ??
I'm fortunate to have a local fella who is just outstanding with converters. All he does; not a tranny guy. He cuts it open, calls you down, shows you what you have and explains the weakness for the intended combo. Then we look at a giant Chart and plan the appropriate changes. If you have a precision, that's a great product but could use some tweaking. No converter is perfect for both N/A and juice.
Either have it set for N/A if you mostly do that and just live with the 10-12 mile per hour increase on the spray. Or else have that thing almost bog the motor with tightness and then gain 16-18 mph on a 200-250 shot.
Back in the day I built a huge cam AFR headed 360" gen I in a 79 Malibu with 3.89 gears and Mickey T 28x10.5s. Converter was a 9" from a big block spray application and this thing went 13.30 @109 on nuts. People laughed cuz we dragged this car all the way to the Memphis NMCA hot rod shootout in 96'. On only an .082" jet dominator plate it went 10.22 @ 132. We built the proverbial "bottle rocket". You seem to have a solid engine combo. Just gotta figure out the details If we all nailed it on the first try; this would be an easy sport that everyone could do
Thanks a lot for all of this advice...it makes a lot of sense to me... If I can drop 200lbs in this thing, adjust some shift points as you guys have said to do, get the tuning ironed out a bit better as N2Racing explained, and maybe have the converter tightened up a bit.. I think I can have a very consistent and pretty reliable low 10 second car that I can still bomb around town in... I couldn't ask for much more than that with what I have in it.
Thanks a lot for all of this advice...it makes a lot of sense to me... If I can drop 200lbs in this thing, adjust some shift points as you guys have said to do, get the tuning ironed out a bit better as N2Racing explained, and maybe have the converter tightened up a bit.. I think I can have a very consistent and pretty reliable low 10 second car that I can still bomb around town in... I couldn't ask for much more than that with what I have in it.
That's a badass machine when you get that. And even though there are "faster" cars out there, you won't lose many street races...
Front tubular K uppers and lowers, coil overs, manual rack, battery relocation, SJM ABS delete and line lock installed...new Hoosier 28x10.50 slicks are now in place of the drag radials I was on before, and I've got three full nitrous bottles with two brand new sets of plugs. Headed to ATCO tonight for some test n tune tomorrow at Petey Smallblock's event.. looking forward to some good times!
Haven't had any chance to look into my converter or tuning issues yet. I asked tuner for some help over this past month or so but got turned away several times, too busy apparently. So seeing as it is late October and I live in Upstate NY, this weekend will probably be it for the season...Tuning issues etc.. can be addressed before next season rolls around.
Looking forward to hopefully posting up a new personal best!
Have some decent air here on the East coast/Mid-Atlantic right now....good luck
Thank you, yes I agree...looked up the projected DA at ATCO tomorrow morning, looks like it'll be sub 500 until noon and stay below 750 all day from what I saw. A LOT better than the 2000-2500 I've had at Lebanon Valley for all my other track trips this season.
Haven't had a chance to scale the car and see how much weight it lost from the diet, but I will try to do that at ATCO if they have a scale. I'll be sure to post up some results when I get home if it's a successful trip!
All in all it was one hell of a great day...PeteySmallblock held a street car shoot out grudge racing event, so needless to say it was packed. Unfortunately there was a TON of catastrophic failures. After literally spending 13 hours at the track, I got three passes. Each one wasa new personal best. Last pass of the night time slip:
09-27-2017, 11:15 AM
