Procharged 396 LTX (built by ellwein)
12-08-2017, 06:27 PM
#104
TECH Enthusiast
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Location: Valley Lee, MD. Southern Maryland
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After reading this and talking to you I've concluded two things: You need a break from the car so focusing on the S-truck is a good thing, and you need to always have good beer at your house!
Let the SS hibernate and work on it after New Year.
Seriously, after riding in your the SS it's evident that the car is a beast when she's running. I hate to see you fed up with it. I can honestly say that I hope my T/A feels as strong as your car when it's "done".
Let the SS hibernate and work on it after New Year.
Seriously, after riding in your the SS it's evident that the car is a beast when she's running. I hate to see you fed up with it. I can honestly say that I hope my T/A feels as strong as your car when it's "done".
12-08-2017, 07:16 PM
#105
Sorry for leaving this thread hanging, it has been quite the voyage last 6months. I have good, bad, and less bad news.
Good news: I drove the car at full boost a couple of times!!!!
Bad News: I ended up braking a pushrod due to improper valvetrain setup.
Less bad news: went through a couple different variations of valvetrain setup and ditched tradition roller rockers for shaft rockers.
So on to the nitty gritty, while doing data logging and initial tuning I discovered my IATs were through the freakin roof using the original procharger system twin "high flow"(joke) intercoolers. When I say high IATs I mean 177+ degrees after a 3rd-4th-5th pull. Well of course the PCM is going to pull timing, so I was only getting about 15.5deg out of the 21deg commanded. Funny thing is it still pulled like a freight train. So I did a whole entire front mount conversion utilizing a cheap ebay intercooler, and a "silicone intakes" cut to fit piping kit. I got everything cut, bead rolled, installed...go drive it and I see like a 10 degree difference in cooling...WHAT THE HELL!!!! Also while doing the swap I removed the whole front bumper support, fog lights, etc. Side note after just 2 weeks w/o the bumper support I noticed my nose beginning to sag. Another side note...front bumper support weighed in at 26lbs, the steel piping and twin intercoolers weighed in at 38lbs(excluding bypass valve). Soo.....I shelled out the cash for a nice Procharger Fbody setup front mount intercooler. It is designed for 98+, but if you trim a bracket it bolts right in place in the LT1 fbody just fine. I also picked up the Midwest chassis tubular front bumper support. The new intercooler weighed 36lbs, the new plumbing weighed 6lbs, so I lost 22lbs off the nose of the car after all said and done. Install was a breeze, one of the easiest things to install on my car that I can remember in a long time. Also, since I already had the piping made up in 3" everything just slipped together. Forgot to mention I re-clocked my blower so the rubber 135deg coupling would fit properly on the blower outlet, in doing so I blocked off the area where the head unit intake ducting fit...sooo, now I run a bellmouth intake with just a screen, no filter(I know dumb idea on the street)...also it takes in some hot engine air, but after speaking with procharger they have done massive research and feel that taking in hotter air with no restrictions produces more power than cooler air being bottlenecked into the head unit....whatever...So now I have full boost capability, 3" cold side plumbing, 3 core procharger intercooler, and intake temps were dropped to about 100deg on a 75deg day, and they only rise maybe 10deg during long pulls. I could cut more of my front bumper out down the road for better airflow. I believe a lot of that is due to the heat being sucked in right next to the header, but also my bypass valve was up by the throttle body(after the intercooler) which procharger says not only puts stress on the blower, but raises intake temps....usually they like to bleed off all the hot air pre intercooler when you're not into boost so you have lower intake temps normally, that way the intercooler isn't working to cool off all the hot air all the time. makes sense(haven't gotten to try the theory yet).
So now the car is running, making 15psi just by opening up the head unit intake trac, which is weird cuz its 3" piping and a really good flowing intercooler. It shows how much of a bottle neck the intake track was. So now I have good flowing intercooler and piping...getting some tuning done via email back and forth datalogging. Car is actually becoming more and more fun to drive. The timing is back up to 21deg because IATs are in check and we are messing with VE tables. Now I reached the point where I am going to start using the methanol.
Note to self...methanol nozzles installed pre bypass is a bad idea...remember that...
I've got the methanol system all setup, tank filled...hit the test button...meth goes flying everywhere in the engine compartment because it came out of the bypass valve...SHHHIITTT!!!! so I remind myself not to do that again. I go out and drive the car, with meth on and it runs pig rich like 10:1, but doesn't feel too boggy...intake temps drop 50 deg instantly on the data logs. So we do some VE tuning and tuner says to add more meth, make it come on sooner. Do some more VE tuning and now the car is really responding to the methanol and the tuning. Its pinning you back in the seat, IATs look great, AFR looks great and the thing is running GREAT! About time to get it to a dyno for the real deal. Feeling accomplished, which always makes m nervous...
Now, this would have been one of the last tweaks to the meth controller and then leave it alone forever....I go to turn the meth on slightly sooner (mind you its like 3/64ths of a turn on a tiny little variable resistor) and a little more aggressive...hit the key on and hear this weird noise...go to fire the car up...it won't start...hmmm...turn off, attempt to start again...wont start....and then I smell it....another NOTE TO SELF...you CAN turn down the meth controller to activate in vacuum...what a dumb sytem. No fail safe for this? so the controller is on for like 30 seconds pumping methanol everywhere....mostly just out of the bypass valve all over everything in the god damn engine bay and all over the ground...
when I took the charge piping off to inspect, methanol poured out of the intercooler like it was a radiator. It is just ridiculous on some of this stuff...so I called Alky control and asked for advice and he says the controller just did what you told it to do, im like ok, this was spot was come on at 10psi, barely move it and now this is vacuum???...he said to also drain the charge piping and change the oil, maybe plugs too..luckily it didn't kick over or you would of hydrolocked the motor...well thank friggin god that didn't happen...So got the oil changed, dumped the piping and intercooler out, pulled the fuse on the meth system, fired the car up and got all the left over mist out....but didn't get a chance to drive it.
So after all the issues I've experienced with the bypass valve where it was I decided to take the advice from procharger and have my buddy relocate and weld up my bypass valve pre intercooler. Luckily I had enough left over piping from the kit to just have him weld it up the next day, what a good guy, all for the price of a .50cent cup of crappy coffee.
Now I should have all the bugs worked out of this damn intercooler piping stuff, I've probably made 15-20 changes to the intercooler plumbing and different intercoolers and such sense I've had the procharger on the car...whew....
With the meth system turned down, I went to go drive the car and get some data logging recorded before the snow storm....car won't start...look at the plugs and they are totally carbon fouled and wet....sooooo changed the plugs, haven't fired it up since, and now its snowing outside...so wait till spring to find out the rest of this story I guess. I will include pictures of some of my findings. Good news is I am on the right track for a successful 2018!
If anyone is interested, I am building a 4bolt main LT1, carb'd w/vic jr intake, dart heads, LE spec cam, flat top slugs, 11.5:1, T56 6spd, Ford 8.8rear w/ 4.10s, LSD 1987 S10 pickup over the winter. Basically all of my old left over parts from my car. Total cost should be under $2k...truck cost $150, and I sold the rear end for $100 ->GOOD START!
Good news: I drove the car at full boost a couple of times!!!!
Bad News: I ended up braking a pushrod due to improper valvetrain setup.
Less bad news: went through a couple different variations of valvetrain setup and ditched tradition roller rockers for shaft rockers.
So on to the nitty gritty, while doing data logging and initial tuning I discovered my IATs were through the freakin roof using the original procharger system twin "high flow"(joke) intercoolers. When I say high IATs I mean 177+ degrees after a 3rd-4th-5th pull. Well of course the PCM is going to pull timing, so I was only getting about 15.5deg out of the 21deg commanded. Funny thing is it still pulled like a freight train. So I did a whole entire front mount conversion utilizing a cheap ebay intercooler, and a "silicone intakes" cut to fit piping kit. I got everything cut, bead rolled, installed...go drive it and I see like a 10 degree difference in cooling...WHAT THE HELL!!!! Also while doing the swap I removed the whole front bumper support, fog lights, etc. Side note after just 2 weeks w/o the bumper support I noticed my nose beginning to sag. Another side note...front bumper support weighed in at 26lbs, the steel piping and twin intercoolers weighed in at 38lbs(excluding bypass valve). Soo.....I shelled out the cash for a nice Procharger Fbody setup front mount intercooler. It is designed for 98+, but if you trim a bracket it bolts right in place in the LT1 fbody just fine. I also picked up the Midwest chassis tubular front bumper support. The new intercooler weighed 36lbs, the new plumbing weighed 6lbs, so I lost 22lbs off the nose of the car after all said and done. Install was a breeze, one of the easiest things to install on my car that I can remember in a long time. Also, since I already had the piping made up in 3" everything just slipped together. Forgot to mention I re-clocked my blower so the rubber 135deg coupling would fit properly on the blower outlet, in doing so I blocked off the area where the head unit intake ducting fit...sooo, now I run a bellmouth intake with just a screen, no filter(I know dumb idea on the street)...also it takes in some hot engine air, but after speaking with procharger they have done massive research and feel that taking in hotter air with no restrictions produces more power than cooler air being bottlenecked into the head unit....whatever...So now I have full boost capability, 3" cold side plumbing, 3 core procharger intercooler, and intake temps were dropped to about 100deg on a 75deg day, and they only rise maybe 10deg during long pulls. I could cut more of my front bumper out down the road for better airflow. I believe a lot of that is due to the heat being sucked in right next to the header, but also my bypass valve was up by the throttle body(after the intercooler) which procharger says not only puts stress on the blower, but raises intake temps....usually they like to bleed off all the hot air pre intercooler when you're not into boost so you have lower intake temps normally, that way the intercooler isn't working to cool off all the hot air all the time. makes sense(haven't gotten to try the theory yet).
So now the car is running, making 15psi just by opening up the head unit intake trac, which is weird cuz its 3" piping and a really good flowing intercooler. It shows how much of a bottle neck the intake track was. So now I have good flowing intercooler and piping...getting some tuning done via email back and forth datalogging. Car is actually becoming more and more fun to drive. The timing is back up to 21deg because IATs are in check and we are messing with VE tables. Now I reached the point where I am going to start using the methanol.
Note to self...methanol nozzles installed pre bypass is a bad idea...remember that...
I've got the methanol system all setup, tank filled...hit the test button...meth goes flying everywhere in the engine compartment because it came out of the bypass valve...SHHHIITTT!!!! so I remind myself not to do that again. I go out and drive the car, with meth on and it runs pig rich like 10:1, but doesn't feel too boggy...intake temps drop 50 deg instantly on the data logs. So we do some VE tuning and tuner says to add more meth, make it come on sooner. Do some more VE tuning and now the car is really responding to the methanol and the tuning. Its pinning you back in the seat, IATs look great, AFR looks great and the thing is running GREAT! About time to get it to a dyno for the real deal. Feeling accomplished, which always makes m nervous...
Now, this would have been one of the last tweaks to the meth controller and then leave it alone forever....I go to turn the meth on slightly sooner (mind you its like 3/64ths of a turn on a tiny little variable resistor) and a little more aggressive...hit the key on and hear this weird noise...go to fire the car up...it won't start...hmmm...turn off, attempt to start again...wont start....and then I smell it....another NOTE TO SELF...you CAN turn down the meth controller to activate in vacuum...what a dumb sytem. No fail safe for this? so the controller is on for like 30 seconds pumping methanol everywhere....mostly just out of the bypass valve all over everything in the god damn engine bay and all over the ground...
when I took the charge piping off to inspect, methanol poured out of the intercooler like it was a radiator. It is just ridiculous on some of this stuff...so I called Alky control and asked for advice and he says the controller just did what you told it to do, im like ok, this was spot was come on at 10psi, barely move it and now this is vacuum???...he said to also drain the charge piping and change the oil, maybe plugs too..luckily it didn't kick over or you would of hydrolocked the motor...well thank friggin god that didn't happen...So got the oil changed, dumped the piping and intercooler out, pulled the fuse on the meth system, fired the car up and got all the left over mist out....but didn't get a chance to drive it.
So after all the issues I've experienced with the bypass valve where it was I decided to take the advice from procharger and have my buddy relocate and weld up my bypass valve pre intercooler. Luckily I had enough left over piping from the kit to just have him weld it up the next day, what a good guy, all for the price of a .50cent cup of crappy coffee.
Now I should have all the bugs worked out of this damn intercooler piping stuff, I've probably made 15-20 changes to the intercooler plumbing and different intercoolers and such sense I've had the procharger on the car...whew....
With the meth system turned down, I went to go drive the car and get some data logging recorded before the snow storm....car won't start...look at the plugs and they are totally carbon fouled and wet....sooooo changed the plugs, haven't fired it up since, and now its snowing outside...so wait till spring to find out the rest of this story I guess. I will include pictures of some of my findings. Good news is I am on the right track for a successful 2018!
If anyone is interested, I am building a 4bolt main LT1, carb'd w/vic jr intake, dart heads, LE spec cam, flat top slugs, 11.5:1, T56 6spd, Ford 8.8rear w/ 4.10s, LSD 1987 S10 pickup over the winter. Basically all of my old left over parts from my car. Total cost should be under $2k...truck cost $150, and I sold the rear end for $100 ->GOOD START!
__________________
ATI ProCharger and Moser Sales 260 672-2076
PM's disabled, please e-mail me
E-mail: brutespeed@gmail.comob@brutespeed.com
https://brutespeed.com/ Link to website
ATI ProCharger and Moser Sales 260 672-2076
PM's disabled, please e-mail me
E-mail: brutespeed@gmail.comob@brutespeed.com
https://brutespeed.com/ Link to website
12-08-2017, 07:41 PM
#107
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Haven't driven it since man. That was the bummer, I have everything intercooler and plumbing wise basically how I want it and didn't get to drive it before winter came in. It should be ready to rock in the spring time though.
12-08-2017, 07:50 PM
#109
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Updates! Im gonna break this up into a couple sections. Long and short of it car is running, meth system up and running, not dyno tuned yet, and now its snowing in Maryland.
IATs. Been the killer of tuning this car. Started with the Twin "High flows" from procharger. I was seeing IATs upwards of 177+deg after a 3rd-4th-5th pull. This kept timing at a solid 15.5deg, but it still pulled strong. Boost was around 14psi.
Decided to change things up, borrowed an intercooler and decided to go front mount. Did all the aluminum piping, and got it up and running and due to reclocking the blower for the silicone adapter, I couldn't run the intake trac to the blower. So now I'm using a bellmouth(no filter, screen only, NO RESTRICTIONS!) the IATs at this point were only about 10deg cooler than before.
Side note...doing the front mount setup I removed the bumper support which weighed in at 26lbs, then the twin intercoolers and steel tubing weighed 38lbs.
I ended up going with a Procharger front mount intercooler, big shout out to Bob @ Brute speed for enduring this adventure with me! The intercooler installed in my 97 SS with minimal effort, slight trimming only. During this time I also picked up a Midwest chassis front bumper support, as my nose was already starting to sag after two weeks with the nose support.
Got the intercooler on and all was well. IATs were around 100deg in 75deg ambient temps. I was making around 15psi which is great considering I had opened up to 3" tubing all the way around and an awesome flowing intercooler. The Bellmouth really helped to produce the boost, what a restriction the stock intake track was.
IATs. Been the killer of tuning this car. Started with the Twin "High flows" from procharger. I was seeing IATs upwards of 177+deg after a 3rd-4th-5th pull. This kept timing at a solid 15.5deg, but it still pulled strong. Boost was around 14psi.
Decided to change things up, borrowed an intercooler and decided to go front mount. Did all the aluminum piping, and got it up and running and due to reclocking the blower for the silicone adapter, I couldn't run the intake trac to the blower. So now I'm using a bellmouth(no filter, screen only, NO RESTRICTIONS!) the IATs at this point were only about 10deg cooler than before.
Side note...doing the front mount setup I removed the bumper support which weighed in at 26lbs, then the twin intercoolers and steel tubing weighed 38lbs.
I ended up going with a Procharger front mount intercooler, big shout out to Bob @ Brute speed for enduring this adventure with me! The intercooler installed in my 97 SS with minimal effort, slight trimming only. During this time I also picked up a Midwest chassis front bumper support, as my nose was already starting to sag after two weeks with the nose support.
Got the intercooler on and all was well. IATs were around 100deg in 75deg ambient temps. I was making around 15psi which is great considering I had opened up to 3" tubing all the way around and an awesome flowing intercooler. The Bellmouth really helped to produce the boost, what a restriction the stock intake track was.
12-08-2017, 07:58 PM
#110
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
More Updates I spoke with a very knowledgeable tech at procharger for about an hour bypass valve location and the location of my bellmouth intake. They have done numerous tests that prove less restriction, more boost makes more power than, cold air plumbed through twists and turns to grab cold air from elsewhere under the hood. So I'm sticking with the bellmouth, the other topic is Bypass valve location. He highly suggested to move the bypass valve to pre intercooler. The reasons are; it puts less stress on the blower when getting out of the throttle and also it alleviates the intercooler from constantly having to cool the hot air, it just releases it to atmosphere most of the time so you start out with a cooler IAT.
I also learned if your bypass valve is post meth nozzles it will spray meth all over your engine bay.
Leading up to the moving of the bypass valve is starting to do methanol tuning. Methanol is great when used properly. I started having the system come on and my IATs would drop 50 deg instantly and I have all the timing I'm suppose to have and now I can data log and email tune files back and forth to my tuner in Florida. Things are going great!
Don't make the mistake of turning the meth controller too far to where it activates under vacuum...it will flood the motor and hydro lock it. Lucky for me mine wouldn't even start when I moved it past the critical point.
I got the oil changed, and the meth dumped out of the intercooler, and got it fired up so all should be well.
I also learned if your bypass valve is post meth nozzles it will spray meth all over your engine bay.
Leading up to the moving of the bypass valve is starting to do methanol tuning. Methanol is great when used properly. I started having the system come on and my IATs would drop 50 deg instantly and I have all the timing I'm suppose to have and now I can data log and email tune files back and forth to my tuner in Florida. Things are going great!
Don't make the mistake of turning the meth controller too far to where it activates under vacuum...it will flood the motor and hydro lock it. Lucky for me mine wouldn't even start when I moved it past the critical point.
I got the oil changed, and the meth dumped out of the intercooler, and got it fired up so all should be well.
12-08-2017, 08:04 PM
#111
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Last update Where I am now is very close to being ready to hit the dyno with this car. I need to go out and make a few more passes with the methanol system and get it close and have my tuner look over the data logs then its off to the dyno we go. Since I have EFI LIVE hardware and software we plan to use "team viewer" software where he can control my laptop and efi live software through his laptop and let the shop just do the pulls. Still hoping for the 750rwhp number, we shall see. It definitely pulls like a freight train when it is running.
Right now the car has fresh plugs in it, as the other ones were carbon fouled from tuning, but it is snowing here in Maryland, so she's parked for the winter. Hoping for the best in 2018!
I also picked up an 87 S10 truck as a winter project for $150, sold the rear end for $100. Plan on doing a 355ci 4bolt main,Carb'd LT1 w/vic jr. intake, dart heads, T56 6spd, 8.8 rear end 4.10s&LSD. Basically all the original drivetrain out of my Camaro plus the ford rear end.
Right now the car has fresh plugs in it, as the other ones were carbon fouled from tuning, but it is snowing here in Maryland, so she's parked for the winter. Hoping for the best in 2018!
I also picked up an 87 S10 truck as a winter project for $150, sold the rear end for $100. Plan on doing a 355ci 4bolt main,Carb'd LT1 w/vic jr. intake, dart heads, T56 6spd, 8.8 rear end 4.10s&LSD. Basically all the original drivetrain out of my Camaro plus the ford rear end.
Last edited by 97SSD1; 12-08-2017 at 08:32 PM.
12-08-2017, 08:05 PM
#112
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I was man, I'm in the Navy so they bounce us all over the place. I'm in Maryland now and will be getting out of the service in 18mo to be a DoD Contractor and never have to move again(unless I want to).
12-08-2017, 08:17 PM
#113
You're welcome.
Thanks. Bob
__________________
ATI ProCharger and Moser Sales 260 672-2076
PM's disabled, please e-mail me
E-mail: brutespeed@gmail.comob@brutespeed.com
https://brutespeed.com/ Link to website
ATI ProCharger and Moser Sales 260 672-2076
PM's disabled, please e-mail me
E-mail: brutespeed@gmail.comob@brutespeed.com
https://brutespeed.com/ Link to website
12-08-2017, 09:49 PM
#114
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Valley Lee, MD. Southern Maryland
Posts: 652
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Received 12 Likes
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Good update on the car. I'm going to have a beer. 
Then gonna try and find the perfect gift to compliment your S15. Wait until LS1tech sees her. She ain't pretty, but she'll have her share of admirers.
Then gonna try and find the perfect gift to compliment your S15. Wait until LS1tech sees her. She ain't pretty, but she'll have her share of admirers.
12-09-2017, 07:53 PM
#118
Prochargers need the bypass valve pre-intercooler anyway, or your IATs are going to be high since the blower is always pushing boost through the intercooler before it's expelled through the bypass. So good call there.
Also, the Garrett Core intercoolers are going to keep it within 20 degrees of ambient from what I've seen. I don't know if the Procharger intercooler will do as well... but they are the same cost. Nothing else comes close in the eBay/Bell/whatever world to the Garrett. But that Procharger unit looks good and it sounds like it's working better than the eBay stuff.
Also, the Garrett Core intercoolers are going to keep it within 20 degrees of ambient from what I've seen. I don't know if the Procharger intercooler will do as well... but they are the same cost. Nothing else comes close in the eBay/Bell/whatever world to the Garrett. But that Procharger unit looks good and it sounds like it's working better than the eBay stuff.
12-10-2017, 06:54 PM
#119
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Prochargers need the bypass valve pre-intercooler anyway, or your IATs are going to be high since the blower is always pushing boost through the intercooler before it's expelled through the bypass. So good call there.
Also, the Garrett Core intercoolers are going to keep it within 20 degrees of ambient from what I've seen. I don't know if the Procharger intercooler will do as well... but they are the same cost. Nothing else comes close in the eBay/Bell/whatever world to the Garrett. But that Procharger unit looks good and it sounds like it's working better than the eBay stuff.
Also, the Garrett Core intercoolers are going to keep it within 20 degrees of ambient from what I've seen. I don't know if the Procharger intercooler will do as well... but they are the same cost. Nothing else comes close in the eBay/Bell/whatever world to the Garrett. But that Procharger unit looks good and it sounds like it's working better than the eBay stuff.
