Mamo Motorsports LS7 package / 200+ RWHP Gain!!
12-14-2017, 02:14 AM
#1
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Mamo Motorsports LS7 package / 200+ RWHP Gain!! Lets just get right to it....a power curve doesnt get much better looking than this!
Same car, same dyno....about a month apart....the only upgrade my client had at the time he baselined it was a K&N CAI installed....otherwise a bone stock C6Z. The green lines represent the stock run of course and you guys should take note that the car only made 445 RWHP even with the better CAI which should have been worth a few ponies at the very least (five minimum). These baseline numbers are certainly on the light side of average for a stock Z06 (I think 455 or so is much more typical) so this dyno certainly isn't giving away the numbers and seems a touch on the conservative side making the final numbers that much more impressive.
The blue line represents straight 93 octane....the red line is E85 with a little more timing in the tune (I believe I set the static CR at 12.0 to 1 with this combo but it might have been a touch higher...I need to confirm).
Guys....a legit 200+ HP gain on the same dyno without removing the shortblock from the car or increasing displacement....no boost....no nitrous....all muscle....naturally aspirated! That's a really serious accomplishment.....150 is damn stout but 200 plus is just incredible and like always its the attention to details, a killer cylinder head as the foundation of the build and all the supporting cast of characters in the air flow pipeline and valve train to play off that cylinder head and allow it to shine (A really good head is the key guys....especially naturally aspirated....cylinder heads are the star of the show as they represent the doorway in and the doorway out of the combustion process).
This is straight from the customer himself in a recent email I received
Tony, Here is the dyno from my car, stock, pump gas (93) and E85. This was using 1 7/8 ARH and a K&N intake with your ported throttle body. This was with you RPS lightened clutch I bought as well. My tuner doesn’t own his own dyno but uses this one for all of his tuning. He said stock he has seen Z’s from 430’s to as high as 460. My car is the highest horsepower N/A street car he has tuned.
And that makes number TEN.....ten independent shops that I know of that have set naturally aspirated H/C records on their dynos with an MMS LS7 topend installed (usually a complete MMS package). I have touched on this in some of the other Mamo Motorsports LS7 build threads. The trend continues and I look forward to helping you guys break some more records down the road....I have alot of good stuff in the pipeline....you guys know who you are
What's even more interesting concerning this particular build is there was some power left on the table. This combo had one of my ported 90mm OEM TB's and 1.875 header.....the larger header and 102 mm TB is easily 10 plus at the tire, not to mention the K&N intake is far from the best CAI to run.....the Halltech and the Vararam are both better than the K&N and either would have fattened the numbers even more.
This combo included my 3.5X cam (245/259 @ .050)....a touch larger than my standard 3.5 with a slightly more aggressive lobe profile that requires stouter springs to handle the increased lift. The specs are very similar as is the way it drives (one degree more on intake and exhaust), but it adds to the total cost because of the more expensive spring upgrade required to handle the almost .680 lift you get with my 1.85 rockers (versus .660 with my Stage 3 cam). It does increase the area under the curve and takes slightly better advantage of the cylinder heads peak lift flow (still climbing till .700 or so).
My client also opted for an upgrade I started recently offering which is a fully hand finished larger exhaust port that has a different valvejob profile as well. The low lift flow is a little less but the peak flow is higher and LS7 engines love exhaust flow and respond well to anything you can do on that side of the cylinder head.
My lightweight RPS clutch (included in this build) was also worth some gains in there with the 20+ pound reduction in rotating mass that this unit offers....all the nickels and dimes add up guys. This is no doubt a 660+ combination (with some of the other items missed the first go around upgraded) on a conservative dyno....the fact we have a baseline that's soft makes that statement factual and not opinion....one of the big perks to rolling the car stock before you mod. In fact if any of you have the opportunity to do that I highly recommend it if you really want to learn and properly evaluate what we really accomplished with all the sexy new parts you bought!
Really good stuff guys....and just another example of a really solid build within a growing list of really solid builds utilizing the complete package approach I offer which is always the most successful when you looking to get the most from your combination. A lot of R&D goes into the development of an optimized combination but as they say, the proof is in the pudding (or the trend of solid dyno results in this case).
Cheers,
Tony
Same car, same dyno....about a month apart....the only upgrade my client had at the time he baselined it was a K&N CAI installed....otherwise a bone stock C6Z. The green lines represent the stock run of course and you guys should take note that the car only made 445 RWHP even with the better CAI which should have been worth a few ponies at the very least (five minimum). These baseline numbers are certainly on the light side of average for a stock Z06 (I think 455 or so is much more typical) so this dyno certainly isn't giving away the numbers and seems a touch on the conservative side making the final numbers that much more impressive.
The blue line represents straight 93 octane....the red line is E85 with a little more timing in the tune (I believe I set the static CR at 12.0 to 1 with this combo but it might have been a touch higher...I need to confirm).
Guys....a legit 200+ HP gain on the same dyno without removing the shortblock from the car or increasing displacement....no boost....no nitrous....all muscle....naturally aspirated! That's a really serious accomplishment.....150 is damn stout but 200 plus is just incredible and like always its the attention to details, a killer cylinder head as the foundation of the build and all the supporting cast of characters in the air flow pipeline and valve train to play off that cylinder head and allow it to shine (A really good head is the key guys....especially naturally aspirated....cylinder heads are the star of the show as they represent the doorway in and the doorway out of the combustion process).
This is straight from the customer himself in a recent email I received
Tony, Here is the dyno from my car, stock, pump gas (93) and E85. This was using 1 7/8 ARH and a K&N intake with your ported throttle body. This was with you RPS lightened clutch I bought as well. My tuner doesn’t own his own dyno but uses this one for all of his tuning. He said stock he has seen Z’s from 430’s to as high as 460. My car is the highest horsepower N/A street car he has tuned.
And that makes number TEN.....ten independent shops that I know of that have set naturally aspirated H/C records on their dynos with an MMS LS7 topend installed (usually a complete MMS package). I have touched on this in some of the other Mamo Motorsports LS7 build threads. The trend continues and I look forward to helping you guys break some more records down the road....I have alot of good stuff in the pipeline....you guys know who you are
What's even more interesting concerning this particular build is there was some power left on the table. This combo had one of my ported 90mm OEM TB's and 1.875 header.....the larger header and 102 mm TB is easily 10 plus at the tire, not to mention the K&N intake is far from the best CAI to run.....the Halltech and the Vararam are both better than the K&N and either would have fattened the numbers even more.
This combo included my 3.5X cam (245/259 @ .050)....a touch larger than my standard 3.5 with a slightly more aggressive lobe profile that requires stouter springs to handle the increased lift. The specs are very similar as is the way it drives (one degree more on intake and exhaust), but it adds to the total cost because of the more expensive spring upgrade required to handle the almost .680 lift you get with my 1.85 rockers (versus .660 with my Stage 3 cam). It does increase the area under the curve and takes slightly better advantage of the cylinder heads peak lift flow (still climbing till .700 or so).
My client also opted for an upgrade I started recently offering which is a fully hand finished larger exhaust port that has a different valvejob profile as well. The low lift flow is a little less but the peak flow is higher and LS7 engines love exhaust flow and respond well to anything you can do on that side of the cylinder head.
My lightweight RPS clutch (included in this build) was also worth some gains in there with the 20+ pound reduction in rotating mass that this unit offers....all the nickels and dimes add up guys. This is no doubt a 660+ combination (with some of the other items missed the first go around upgraded) on a conservative dyno....the fact we have a baseline that's soft makes that statement factual and not opinion....one of the big perks to rolling the car stock before you mod. In fact if any of you have the opportunity to do that I highly recommend it if you really want to learn and properly evaluate what we really accomplished with all the sexy new parts you bought!
Really good stuff guys....and just another example of a really solid build within a growing list of really solid builds utilizing the complete package approach I offer which is always the most successful when you looking to get the most from your combination. A lot of R&D goes into the development of an optimized combination but as they say, the proof is in the pudding (or the trend of solid dyno results in this case).
Cheers,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 12-16-2017 at 12:38 AM.
12-14-2017, 04:13 AM
#2
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I designed them in early 2014 just prior to leaving AFR later in that year (one of the last few projects I handled for them before leaving).
I am now offering an optional Mamo Motorsports LS3 product utilizing those casting (my MMS 26X head). In fact I have five pair of castings due to arrive in a couple of weeks. They are heavy and ideal for BIG boosted combos (four digits plus). Castings are easily five pounds heavier than the TFS version I offer. For most combo's the added heft is arguable but its a plus in a four digit application no doubt. PM or email me if you want/need more information as I would like to keep this thread more on topic regarding the LS7 gear I have been perfecting the last few years (one of the first design projects I spearheaded when leaving AFR).
This thread is particularly relevant and more unique as we have the benefit of the "before" data on the same dyno and very recent at that (some guys post baselines from a year or more ago and that adds a slight chance things may have changed with the dyno equipment or cell in all that time). A recent A-B test is simply preferable if nothing else
Also it looks like you double posted by accident Jim...you should delete that added post....thanks for chiming in
Regards,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 12-14-2017 at 05:40 AM.
12-14-2017, 01:39 PM
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12-14-2017, 03:46 PM
#9
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Yeah, I noticed the torque curve (!?!) is practically FLAT from around 4800 to 6100RPM+/-. USABLE power!
12-14-2017, 06:02 PM
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I'd wager if you included non-LS7 builds, you have more dyno record holders...
it's hard to argue with Tony's track record. And I bet a lot of these LS7 record holders are NOT a PITA to drive...
it's hard to argue with Tony's track record. And I bet a lot of these LS7 record holders are NOT a PITA to drive...
12-14-2017, 06:35 PM
#12
TECH Senior Member
Nope. I think Tony's combos (and that IS the right word!) lend themselves to better driving than others of the same power levels.
Actually TWO key words go here- BALANCED COMBO.
Actually TWO key words go here- BALANCED COMBO.
12-14-2017, 08:15 PM
#14
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12-14-2017, 08:54 PM
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12-15-2017, 01:01 AM
#16
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Thread Starter
Guys,
Don't get as much time to post these days and I really appreciate all the positive comments etc. regarding this build.
It really just drives home what the sharper guys already know....the right combination of good parts (an optimized well thought out combination) can really can make a difference in the output of the final product as well as the shape of the power curve which Im glad many of you picked up on also. This engine carries peak torque like an electric motor for well over a thousand RPM's and then settles into a gentle slow roll off....everything you're hoping for when your designing and brainstorming over the combination months before it ever fires up. This last year for me has been about perfecting these LS7 combos I have been working on and this latest result is proof positive of that.
Im not going to list every part and every price but let me get the big stuff out of the way and a ballpark price of the total.
The MMS 265's featured here are IMO a bargain at $4250 or so....this is a piece that's 100% CNC ported, then hand finished in all the critical areas of the flow path (chambers, bowls, short turns etc.). That's not an option....it's a premium piece and it's included in the cost. Price includes alot of other upgrades as well....hollow stem intake valves (custom pieces), upgrade springs (good to .660 lift), titanium retainers, proprietary valvejob profiles on both intake and exhaust, and finally cc'ed and milled to my customer's spec to set the final compression.
This particular set of heads featured in this build also had a fairly new option I recently began offering which is a larger fully hand finished exhaust and a slightly different valvejob as well. That typically adds $395 to the cost but IMO it's addition is one of those smaller items that helped carry that torque curve so far.....the LS7 stuff really has an issue evacuating the cylinder as its so biased on the intake side by the architecture of the cylinder heads. If you can make more room for that next intake charge at the higher RPM's (when you have so little time to do so) it makes a difference and keeps the torque curve hanging on longer. Btw guys, peak torque represents the RPM where the engine is the most efficient and actually processing the most amount of air and fuel. The VE is the highest at peak torque as is the BMEP numbers as well however its peak power that really dictates the type of acceleration you can potentially experience. This is a whole can of worms in itself (discussing torque and horsepower) and I don't want to derail my own thread but the longer you can maintain peak torque the sexier your power curve is going to be!!
This build like most of my LS7 builds include Yella Terra Ultralite rockers built specifically for my heads, Johnson Short travel lifters, my ported MSD intake (which I have perfected over the years), Manton 3/8 pushrods, a custom cam which I touched on earlier, thinner Cometic head gaskets for better quench, my ported LS9 dry sump pump, and an ATI dampener that's unique and about two pound lighter than stock. And we should also include my lightweight modified RPS BC2 clutch that's worth some numbers on the dyno as well due to the massive reduction in rotating mass (about a 24 lb weight savings!). The headers in this case were provided by my customer but I would have normally spec'ed a 2" header with this build. My experience at this power level shows barely any loss down low and a good bit more from 5500 and up (4-6 RWHP or so)....maybe 6-8 past peak. In fact a 2" header would have had an even slower roll off than what you see featured here.
Including a $2500 ish dollar clutch and the exhaust port upgrade, the total of these parts would be about 12K or so....if you had to buy the exhaust about 14K total. But I bet if most of you figured out what you really had in every part of your heads cam upgrade (including your exhaust and a clutch) most of you would be surprised at the total....its probably a couple grand more than you might initially think.
Bottom line....this is far from inexpensive but this engine is generating 730-740 HP naturally aspirated at the flywheel with an OEM shortblock and a 245 HR camshaft....it will actually drive very reasonable with the right tune in the car. This type of steam with the flexibility this power and torque curve offers (no screaming big RPM to tap into the "jump to lightspeed" part of the power curve) is in a class of its own and it's price is more than fair for the results we are looking at. Most guys spend half that figure and would be happy with half the gain so it's really inline and not very egregious if you were to consider your dollar invested per horsepower.....you just have to be willing to spend the money to get there.
You know what they say....go BIG or go home!!
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....Pics of the "star of the show". I always say that and I mean it....everything else plays a supporting role to the heads and if you think about it that's really true. There is a reason more time and money in most professional motorsports classes are spent in cylinder head development and R&D. They are the direct doorway in and the direct doorway out of the combustion process.....you can get everything else right but if your heads aren't up to snuff your going nowhere or certainly not getting there as fast as you like. If you get the heads right and have a great "cast of costars" (aka a killer exhaust system, a really good ported intake and a high flowing TB, the right cam with well chosen valve events to tie everything together, etc. etc,), now you're really moving some air and you get rewarded for all your trouble, time, and money come dyno day or track day for that matter as well.
I have dedicated the better part of my life to this profession....and made alot of personal sacrifices because Im so OCD about everything related to it but my passion for this industry drives me and I realized a long time ago fighting it was a waste of time. Those that choose to deal with me are fortunate to benefit from it and while that might sound cliche, it's completely true and the people that know me best would agree 100%
Don't get as much time to post these days and I really appreciate all the positive comments etc. regarding this build.
It really just drives home what the sharper guys already know....the right combination of good parts (an optimized well thought out combination) can really can make a difference in the output of the final product as well as the shape of the power curve which Im glad many of you picked up on also. This engine carries peak torque like an electric motor for well over a thousand RPM's and then settles into a gentle slow roll off....everything you're hoping for when your designing and brainstorming over the combination months before it ever fires up. This last year for me has been about perfecting these LS7 combos I have been working on and this latest result is proof positive of that.
Im not going to list every part and every price but let me get the big stuff out of the way and a ballpark price of the total.
The MMS 265's featured here are IMO a bargain at $4250 or so....this is a piece that's 100% CNC ported, then hand finished in all the critical areas of the flow path (chambers, bowls, short turns etc.). That's not an option....it's a premium piece and it's included in the cost. Price includes alot of other upgrades as well....hollow stem intake valves (custom pieces), upgrade springs (good to .660 lift), titanium retainers, proprietary valvejob profiles on both intake and exhaust, and finally cc'ed and milled to my customer's spec to set the final compression.
This particular set of heads featured in this build also had a fairly new option I recently began offering which is a larger fully hand finished exhaust and a slightly different valvejob as well. That typically adds $395 to the cost but IMO it's addition is one of those smaller items that helped carry that torque curve so far.....the LS7 stuff really has an issue evacuating the cylinder as its so biased on the intake side by the architecture of the cylinder heads. If you can make more room for that next intake charge at the higher RPM's (when you have so little time to do so) it makes a difference and keeps the torque curve hanging on longer. Btw guys, peak torque represents the RPM where the engine is the most efficient and actually processing the most amount of air and fuel. The VE is the highest at peak torque as is the BMEP numbers as well however its peak power that really dictates the type of acceleration you can potentially experience. This is a whole can of worms in itself (discussing torque and horsepower) and I don't want to derail my own thread but the longer you can maintain peak torque the sexier your power curve is going to be!!
This build like most of my LS7 builds include Yella Terra Ultralite rockers built specifically for my heads, Johnson Short travel lifters, my ported MSD intake (which I have perfected over the years), Manton 3/8 pushrods, a custom cam which I touched on earlier, thinner Cometic head gaskets for better quench, my ported LS9 dry sump pump, and an ATI dampener that's unique and about two pound lighter than stock. And we should also include my lightweight modified RPS BC2 clutch that's worth some numbers on the dyno as well due to the massive reduction in rotating mass (about a 24 lb weight savings!). The headers in this case were provided by my customer but I would have normally spec'ed a 2" header with this build. My experience at this power level shows barely any loss down low and a good bit more from 5500 and up (4-6 RWHP or so)....maybe 6-8 past peak. In fact a 2" header would have had an even slower roll off than what you see featured here.
Including a $2500 ish dollar clutch and the exhaust port upgrade, the total of these parts would be about 12K or so....if you had to buy the exhaust about 14K total. But I bet if most of you figured out what you really had in every part of your heads cam upgrade (including your exhaust and a clutch) most of you would be surprised at the total....its probably a couple grand more than you might initially think.
Bottom line....this is far from inexpensive but this engine is generating 730-740 HP naturally aspirated at the flywheel with an OEM shortblock and a 245 HR camshaft....it will actually drive very reasonable with the right tune in the car. This type of steam with the flexibility this power and torque curve offers (no screaming big RPM to tap into the "jump to lightspeed" part of the power curve) is in a class of its own and it's price is more than fair for the results we are looking at. Most guys spend half that figure and would be happy with half the gain so it's really inline and not very egregious if you were to consider your dollar invested per horsepower.....you just have to be willing to spend the money to get there.
You know what they say....go BIG or go home!!
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....Pics of the "star of the show". I always say that and I mean it....everything else plays a supporting role to the heads and if you think about it that's really true. There is a reason more time and money in most professional motorsports classes are spent in cylinder head development and R&D. They are the direct doorway in and the direct doorway out of the combustion process.....you can get everything else right but if your heads aren't up to snuff your going nowhere or certainly not getting there as fast as you like. If you get the heads right and have a great "cast of costars" (aka a killer exhaust system, a really good ported intake and a high flowing TB, the right cam with well chosen valve events to tie everything together, etc. etc,), now you're really moving some air and you get rewarded for all your trouble, time, and money come dyno day or track day for that matter as well.
I have dedicated the better part of my life to this profession....and made alot of personal sacrifices because Im so OCD about everything related to it but my passion for this industry drives me and I realized a long time ago fighting it was a waste of time. Those that choose to deal with me are fortunate to benefit from it and while that might sound cliche, it's completely true and the people that know me best would agree 100%
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 12-16-2017 at 12:53 AM.
12-15-2017, 11:56 AM
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With that lighter clutch in top of all that power, I bet the motor is incredibly responsive. With that flat torque curve, where are your shift points going to be if you ever run it on the track?
That price tag isn't too bad IMO. There are some crazy expensive ls7 heads out there. Certainly seems foolish to not spend the extra 395 for some extra mamo lovin. What is that, a 10% premium to know you left absolutely nothing on the table? I'd call that a bargain.
Congratulations on such a monster. It looks like the power is going to rival that 455 you did not too long ago, but with the 4" stroke, it will last a long time.
That price tag isn't too bad IMO. There are some crazy expensive ls7 heads out there. Certainly seems foolish to not spend the extra 395 for some extra mamo lovin. What is that, a 10% premium to know you left absolutely nothing on the table? I'd call that a bargain.
Congratulations on such a monster. It looks like the power is going to rival that 455 you did not too long ago, but with the 4" stroke, it will last a long time.
