LS1 to V-T56 Transmission or clutch problem
10-21-2019, 10:37 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
LS1 to V-T56 Transmission or clutch problem First off, good morning and thank you for stopping in, everything referenced is currently living inside a 2002 bugeye WRX, using the stop pedal assembly so question? whats a good process to work through clutch issues. I have a 4.8 Vortec mated to a T56 out of a CSTV, i am using the fbody bell housing, not the CTSV one. I'm using a clutch and flywheel kit from summit, part number LUK-04-905 now i've done some digging and its supposed to be exactly the same as the LS7 clutch /shrug. i have the system bled and im using the below slave cylinder. also tied into the system is a 7/8 bore master cylinder from wilwood (see link below). the issue is i cannot get into gear with the vehicle running and the clutch depressed (grinds). i could use ideas and advice before i go tearing things apart again and making unnecessary decisions. I already pulled the transmission once to measure for slave cylinder clearance, and after adding alot of shims im at 1/8 of an inch of gap, which from what i read is the correct spacing. I Got everything back together this weekend and it is still grinding gears and not letting me shift. I took a short video as best I could using my phone of the clutch being depressed with the vehicle not running last night which i will attempt to upload below. What do you guys think the issue could be? Something wrong with the clutch itself? from what i can see in the video the clutch bellows is being pressed well and i can see a porton of the spring (barely visible in the upper left of the video) being moving from the compression. if there's other information I have missed that needs to be here please let me know. links to parts im using with teh CTSV T56 below
slave cylinder
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUK-LSC265B
clutch
slave cylinder
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUK-LSC265B
clutch
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/luk-04-905/master cylinder specs on MC from wilwood websiteBore Size7/8"
Area (in²)0.600
Stroke1.12
Volume (cu in)0.67
Area (in²)0.600
Stroke1.12
Volume (cu in)0.67
Last edited by ltnlover21; 10-21-2019 at 12:54 PM.
10-21-2019, 11:56 AM
#2
If it's shimmed correctly then I would assume a faulty pressure plate. I had this exact issue on a build a couple years ago and it was the pressure plate. Double check your measurements again and make sure you've got 3/16" to an 1/8". If it's more then it will need to be shimmed.
10-21-2019, 12:23 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
@1964SS are pressure plates known to be faulty right out the box? any known solutions other than replacement? im not sure anything is warrantied at this point as its taken me some time to get everything put together. zero driving miles tho.. ill probably begin yet another tear down this evening, sadlife..
10-21-2019, 12:34 PM
#4
What hydraulic master cylinder are you using? And what are the foot pedals from and pedal ratio?
That has to be matched up well enough to get adequate hydraulics volume to operate the clutch.
Also, which pilot bearing are you using in the crankshaft?
That has to be matched up well enough to get adequate hydraulics volume to operate the clutch.
Also, which pilot bearing are you using in the crankshaft?
10-21-2019, 12:47 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
@QwkTrip i forgot to list that item. the MC im using is linked below.its a 7/8 bore willwood unit. the foot pedals are from a 2002 subaru WRX, this is the vehicle i swapped into. I do not know what the raitio is but i found a page on how to measure that and ill get on it this evening and update the infromation. however i will note that other have done this swap successfully using stock pedals and the MC i listed albeit they were using the GTO T56 and not the CTSV unit i have. I am open to all possible problems tho and will chase them down, so thank you for your questions, i measure ratio when i leave work.
Bore Size7/8"
Area (in²)0.600
Stroke1.12
Volume (cu in)0.67
Bore Size7/8"
Area (in²)0.600
Stroke1.12
Volume (cu in)0.67
10-21-2019, 01:14 PM
#7
7/8 bore, 1 inch stroke master cylinder is a common upgrade for f-body cars such as 2000 Camaro. I don't know the pedal ratio but that would be your reference design. (I drove my nephew's WRX and it felt like it had a short pedal stroke compared to my f-body.)
The CTS V and f body bellhousing are different lengths I believe. That means the input shaft will extend at a different length past the bellhousing. I think the CTS-V uses a large bearing (like the LS3 cars) with shorter shaft. I know for a fact the f body uses the small bearing with longer shaft. Did you measure final assembly to know which bearing you are supposed to use?
The CTS V and f body bellhousing are different lengths I believe. That means the input shaft will extend at a different length past the bellhousing. I think the CTS-V uses a large bearing (like the LS3 cars) with shorter shaft. I know for a fact the f body uses the small bearing with longer shaft. Did you measure final assembly to know which bearing you are supposed to use?
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10-21-2019, 01:23 PM
#8
Also, bleeding the hydraulics can be a bitch. I have a T56 in a 89 Firebird. The trans is sloped with the tail shaft down a bit. This causes air to settle in the front of the slave cylinder, but the bleed port is in the back of the slave cylinder. In order to get a good bleed I have to jack up the rear of the car as high as I can get it.
10-21-2019, 01:32 PM
#9
Sorry about the many posts, I keep thinking of things.
Does the clutch release properly without the engine running? In other words, did you adjust your pedal and check that the tires can freewheel near the bottom of pedal travel? That's a "must do" before running the engine.
Does the clutch release properly without the engine running? In other words, did you adjust your pedal and check that the tires can freewheel near the bottom of pedal travel? That's a "must do" before running the engine.
10-21-2019, 01:32 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
@QwkTrip I bled the system using one of those euro pressure pot bleeders to force straight fluid through the system, i did this while pressing the clutch peddle in and out to try and work out any trapped air, the peddle feels quite stout, but i dont mind giving it another go or 2 as i have the bleeder extension for easy access. im using the Fbody bellhousing and i pressed in the bearing that came with the clutch, i didnt think to measure that part. if i pull it all apart i definitely will look into it.
Last edited by ltnlover21; 10-21-2019 at 01:41 PM.
10-21-2019, 03:23 PM
#14
If you have the wrong bearing then the transmission will be trashed shortly from the input shaft wobbling around. It's just something I thought about when I saw you cobbled together various parts.
Video of setting pedal stop. Not same as yours but concept still applies. You'll be able to tell if the clutch is releasing, and when it is releasing in the pedal travel. You don't want to over stroke the master cylinder (or the slave cylinder). In your case I'm wondering if it's even stroking enough.
Video of setting pedal stop. Not same as yours but concept still applies. You'll be able to tell if the clutch is releasing, and when it is releasing in the pedal travel. You don't want to over stroke the master cylinder (or the slave cylinder). In your case I'm wondering if it's even stroking enough.
10-21-2019, 07:18 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
@QwkTrip @1964SS ok guys i didnt get the chance to run through all the stuffs and make the videos on account of the honeydo's BUT i did manage a few minutes to fart around with the vehicle. it doesnt appear the transmission is binding up and instead of panicking i decided to take more detailed approach. i felt out the clutch and i can definitely feel the disengagement point on the clutch its darn near the bottom of the pedals travel but its there. seeing as i already did the bad thing several times and ran the car i figured there cant be anything catastrophically bad going on with the clutch, so i fired her up and tested each individual gear. this trans feels like an entirely different animal than my Z so im not sure what to feel but i CAN get into 1,4,5,6 and with some force R i cannot get into 2 or 3 with out grinding the sh#$ out of it. i will say that the gears that do work go between feeling accepting of the shift or straight up clunky and i dont know if that normal? is it possible i got sold a lemon with worn out 2-3 synchros? the only other thing i noted was an occasional shudder when i depressed the clutch quickly however I cannot rule out an engine shudder atm as the car hasnt been tuned after puttin in a mild cam. i did notice the the very start of the clutch travel has an odd moment of play and i figure that out ASAP.not sure whether i need to pull the MC fork in or out to get rid of this and get immediate travel but ill figure that part out.
10-22-2019, 01:51 PM
#17
If the parts ate what you say they are, the pilot end of your maindrive is floppin in the breeze.
Pull the trans. See if an extended bronze pilot will even reach the pilot end of your maindrive. Without hitting the disc hub.
There are at least 3 ways to fix this with parts changes. Does your driveline have leeway for a longer transmission assy at all?
Pull the trans. See if an extended bronze pilot will even reach the pilot end of your maindrive. Without hitting the disc hub.
There are at least 3 ways to fix this with parts changes. Does your driveline have leeway for a longer transmission assy at all?
10-22-2019, 02:56 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
@jmd im going to dissassemble sometime this week and check the pilot issue before i send off the tranny for repairs. i can move that trans around it would just require more lengthening or shortening of the shifter linkage. i belive i have some wiggle room in the drive shaft as well. what methods are we referencing?
10-23-2019, 08:37 PM
#19
I mentioned one. The V maindrive is short. You need to see if it will work with the CTS-V bearing (it will be close) or an "extended pilot bushing." Clutch spline engagement should work, but check that too.
The V bellhousing adds 7mm length and would definitely work w/ the V bearing and maindrive and a slave shim if needed. It is tilted slightly. Because the V pilot bearing is an upgrade over the Camaro / GTO version, I like this best. And maybe it would have minimum shifter and driveline changes.
A GTO maindrive would be the most effort. No trans. assy. length changes involved. What I don't like is the wear prone (bronze) or failure prone (roller) pilot bearings in the small F-body / GTO size.
The V bellhousing adds 7mm length and would definitely work w/ the V bearing and maindrive and a slave shim if needed. It is tilted slightly. Because the V pilot bearing is an upgrade over the Camaro / GTO version, I like this best. And maybe it would have minimum shifter and driveline changes.
A GTO maindrive would be the most effort. No trans. assy. length changes involved. What I don't like is the wear prone (bronze) or failure prone (roller) pilot bearings in the small F-body / GTO size.
11-07-2019, 05:06 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
@jmd well its been a loooong couple of weeks... so i took down the t56 intending to do all the legwork you suggested and find a workable solution as well as diagnose what is going on with the trans itself. WELL by all appearances i got thoroughly cheated. ever single gear in the lower case was missing teeth in multiple places, and also showed extreme wear on their faces, after consulting with some knowledgeable people on the matter it was deduced that a full rebuild would have been above 3k and not worth the investment. so i'm already out the money on i paid for the t56, nothing to do about it. ended up ordering a brand new TR 6060 for the 04-07 CTS-V now after looking at the length of the input shaft and the depth of the pilot bearing i believe this one will be a direct bolt on as far as the input shaft, pilot bearing and clutch ring engagement goes. the TR6060 did have an entirely different output flange on it that was a no go for the current driveshaft i have, interestingly enough however the triangular output from my t56 bolted right up and looks as though it will function without issue. so i will have to modify my shifter assembly (no biggie) and im hoping my current driveshafts yolk play will allow me to use it as is. one thing i have yet to confirm is if there are any other differences i need to be aware of as far as the tr6060s function goes, there appears to be some kind of bras vent on the top of the case near the front. Also the slave that came with the trans only has a single line coming out of it and im thinking ill swap over the other unit i have that has the bleeder extensions and stuff already on it and shim as necessary.