BBC vs LSx 454ci......N/A
12-26-2008, 06:00 AM
#21
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Take the long block complete BBC crate engine that Chevy offers. $14,000....720 FWHP.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor...27--P6C54.aspx
What can be done to this engine to get it up to 1100 FWHP, so it will make about 800 RWHP.
How much additional dollars over the $14,000 price tag.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor...27--P6C54.aspx
What can be done to this engine to get it up to 1100 FWHP, so it will make about 800 RWHP.
How much additional dollars over the $14,000 price tag.
12-26-2008, 06:10 AM
#22
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Your on CRACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My old 468 BBC had old but good parts and made around 800hp on a 300 shot and lasted a good 15k miles or so, I pulled it apart and everything looked great minus the cam (threw a rocker).
PLENTY of people making 800hp out of a BBC and they drive them on the street all day long no problem, thats 800hp all motor.
Talking to the wheels here.
I had factory rods and crank with my motor and a old 636ish lift cam.
When it comes to the 454+LSX guys most street guys stick with a 427, the stroke gets a little to long for the big inch stuff for the street, some get re sleved blocks but most stick with a 427.
As fas as the gas mileage comment. If you have a 454 LSX and a 454 BBC there will not be any difference if you ask me, now compared to a 5XX then yes, thats a no brainer, you can't have big power big CUI and gas mileage.
Getting 800hp to the wheels out of a LSX with no forced induction is going to be pretty much race only.
Get a Bow tie 502 block, punch it out to whatever stroke you want, nice after market steel crank and rods (don't need forged for that kind of power), sa nice top end and there you go.
Ill never run a progressive, those are harder then crap on noids. Get it to hook out of the hole on what you want or two stage it.
I had TRW forged pistons, stock rods and crank and it held a 300 shot no problem.
I assume you have not been noticing how fast the BBC stuff is evolving? Check out the Brodix Head Hunter heads 353 CFM at like 500 lift out of the box! , and remember thats a CONVENTIONAL head and has killer exhaust flow numbers also!
The limit for the LSX stuff is like 500CUI, I know of a 632 thats on the street all the time..... I don't see the LSX stuff EVER catching up the the BBC, in the end the CUI limits of the SBC based stuff is what kills it. Yes with an SBC you can make sick power I give you Mike Moran but LSX stuff rivaling BBC? No way.
Even with factory heads flowing 300cfm with the less CUI you have to spin the motor a lot harder and beat on it a lot harder to get the HP out if it. If you have a 5-6XX BBC with a good flowing head it takes a lot less RPM to make even more power.
I was on 7 cylinders and ran a stock LS1 GTO and before I even had it floored in second gear I allready had put a few cars on him, he was in first...
THe only way I would build an LSX for me is with a big turbo.
My old 468 BBC had old but good parts and made around 800hp on a 300 shot and lasted a good 15k miles or so, I pulled it apart and everything looked great minus the cam (threw a rocker).
PLENTY of people making 800hp out of a BBC and they drive them on the street all day long no problem, thats 800hp all motor.
Talking to the wheels here.
I had factory rods and crank with my motor and a old 636ish lift cam.
When it comes to the 454+LSX guys most street guys stick with a 427, the stroke gets a little to long for the big inch stuff for the street, some get re sleved blocks but most stick with a 427.
As fas as the gas mileage comment. If you have a 454 LSX and a 454 BBC there will not be any difference if you ask me, now compared to a 5XX then yes, thats a no brainer, you can't have big power big CUI and gas mileage.
Getting 800hp to the wheels out of a LSX with no forced induction is going to be pretty much race only.
Get a Bow tie 502 block, punch it out to whatever stroke you want, nice after market steel crank and rods (don't need forged for that kind of power), sa nice top end and there you go.
Ill never run a progressive, those are harder then crap on noids. Get it to hook out of the hole on what you want or two stage it.
I had TRW forged pistons, stock rods and crank and it held a 300 shot no problem.
I assume you have not been noticing how fast the BBC stuff is evolving? Check out the Brodix Head Hunter heads 353 CFM at like 500 lift out of the box! , and remember thats a CONVENTIONAL head and has killer exhaust flow numbers also!
The limit for the LSX stuff is like 500CUI, I know of a 632 thats on the street all the time..... I don't see the LSX stuff EVER catching up the the BBC, in the end the CUI limits of the SBC based stuff is what kills it. Yes with an SBC you can make sick power I give you Mike Moran but LSX stuff rivaling BBC? No way.
Even with factory heads flowing 300cfm with the less CUI you have to spin the motor a lot harder and beat on it a lot harder to get the HP out if it. If you have a 5-6XX BBC with a good flowing head it takes a lot less RPM to make even more power.
I was on 7 cylinders and ran a stock LS1 GTO and before I even had it floored in second gear I allready had put a few cars on him, he was in first...
THe only way I would build an LSX for me is with a big turbo.
Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
12-26-2008, 08:12 AM
#23
Both can be very fast, depends on how and where you want to spend your money.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
12-26-2008, 08:14 AM
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Block is just a block so its down to the Heads and intake who will be better,lsx is better but more expensive but yea BBC is sweet when you step it up with the newest aftermarket stuff
12-26-2008, 10:24 AM
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Both can be very fast, depends on how and where you want to spend your money.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
Very well said
12-26-2008, 11:11 AM
#26
Im not on crack, crack is too expensive so i usually just drink some Draino and call it a night. And yeah try building a BBC that makes 800whp N/A and doesnt cost atleast 20k to build. And you are crazy if you think a BBC is half as efficient as a LSX, there is no comparison in efficiency , weight, or power. A 454 LSX will make a 454 BBC look weak and weigh 250lbs less doing it Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
12-26-2008, 11:15 AM
#27
Both can be very fast, depends on how and where you want to spend your money.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
I think for the same cubic inch the LSX will get better MPG. I've see way too many near stock 454 BBC's that get 7-8 mpg to think otherwise. Friend that had a stock 70 Vette w/454 etc I don't think that car ever got 10mpg even being babied. I don't hear about 454 LSX's getting that type of mpg.
In the end the bigger bore capable BBC will win the HP race. There is massive aftermarket support for the BBC.
I hear a lot of talk about streetable BBC's where I live etc...that's just it you hear about it, but you almost NEVER see one of those BBC cars getting driven daily. Usually the owners will say it's a street car etc, it will have insurance & tag. They almost never take them out on the street. You will see lot's of SBC's, LSX etc that get street time and are daily drivers.
I think the cost of putting a BBC on the street and driving it a lot is pretty high when it's all said and done. I see the little chevy SBC & LSX's get 20,000 miles a year..I sure don't see that with any BBC car around here...not saying there isn't one...but don't kid yourself if your really going to drive the car a lot BBC has some major expense to it when your looking at 7mpg...maybe 10 mpg.
There is a guy down here with a 77 TA, 598 cubes with a TON of dope, needless to say, he is probably the fastest street car in Houston for the most part, the only thing beating him is half the weight, but not making as much power on pump gas. (stang,nova).
Not to mention, Captain Smokey and myself have been whooping LSx F bodys, Vettes with H/C/I and bolt on cobras with our dinky *** SBC, so ytou know what a BBC is going to do
12-26-2008, 01:04 PM
#29
http://www.besracing.com/632-special-crate-engines.html
12-26-2008, 02:07 PM
#30
I know, I'm actually one of those people that think drag racing is just about the gayest thing on the planet. To each his own I guess.
I like a car that can drive on the street, has A/C, can take corners nicely, good braking, stereo, 4 seats, and no trailor, etc.... Yet, can still do a tire change and squeeze off a 10 second 1/4 mile ET.
Its what I have now. ~500 RWHP WS6 full interior street car. I'm just more than ready to up the HP, ~500 RWHP is plain old, just a snooze. And I mean up the hp alot.
Single 94mm + 408ci = my goal plus some
Just wanted to ask a little bit about these BBC.
I like a car that can drive on the street, has A/C, can take corners nicely, good braking, stereo, 4 seats, and no trailor, etc.... Yet, can still do a tire change and squeeze off a 10 second 1/4 mile ET.
Its what I have now. ~500 RWHP WS6 full interior street car. I'm just more than ready to up the HP, ~500 RWHP is plain old, just a snooze. And I mean up the hp alot.
Single 94mm + 408ci = my goal plus some
Just wanted to ask a little bit about these BBC.
Those kind of cars on the street are just stupid any ways. 150plus on the street is a good way to get killed or kill someone else, all kind of crazy stuff and happen out there, thats not even your fault.
12-26-2008, 03:11 PM
#31
Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that a normally aspirated BBC will make an LSx engine look like a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine in every way possible. An all-out LSx engine build will NEVER make near the power of an all-out BBC build. Its just too bad it takes $10,000 in fabbing the car alone to stuff it in a 1998-2002 F-Body. I'd do it in a second if it was easier.
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NewOrleansLT1 (05-23-2021)
12-26-2008, 03:11 PM
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I know guys that put down 500 RWHP on stock ls1 bottom ends. Drives the car everyday to work and still gets 20 mpg on the highway. Not bad for the lowly ls1.
12-26-2008, 03:25 PM
#33
Im not on crack, crack is too expensive so i usually just drink some Draino and call it a night. And yeah try building a BBC that makes 800whp N/A and doesnt cost atleast 20k to build. And you are crazy if you think a BBC is half as efficient as a LSX, there is no comparison in efficiency , weight, or power. A 454 LSX will make a 454 BBC look weak and weigh 250lbs less doing it Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???You'd be crazy to think you can build an 800whp Naturally Aspirated LSX for any cheaper than a 800whp NA BBC. In most cases, it's probably more to build the LSX.
12-26-2008, 05:36 PM
#34
Lay off the draino then. A 454ci BBC will potentially **** all over a 454ci LSX. As I already explained, the BBC's larger bore will allow it to make it's TQ at a higher RPM, resulting in more HP. The aftermarket has about 40 years of development into the BBC, also. There's a reason NA race engines from Pro Stock to Cup have a much larger bore than stroke.
You'd be crazy to think you can build an 800whp Naturally Aspirated LSX for any cheaper than a 800whp NA BBC. In most cases, it's probably more to build the LSX.
You'd be crazy to think you can build an 800whp Naturally Aspirated LSX for any cheaper than a 800whp NA BBC. In most cases, it's probably more to build the LSX.
i wont disagree that the BBC will beat a lsx hands down when it comes to cubes. the big adavantage the lsx has over the bbc is availability.period.
bbc is no longer found in jy' and if u happen to find one. its pretty much done.
the lsx predominantly the iron truck engines are plentiful.
jy is like a unemployment office for lsx.
heck, i have 4 lsx engine just sitting around. all 6.0 and one with l92 heads
but if youre ready to spend 20k$ on just an engine. then the point is moot.
since any engine of that caliber, wont be built with any actual oem parts
12-26-2008, 06:29 PM
#35
Yes, 500 RWHP is easy, my 6 year old 427 makes 492 RWHP. No big deal. But when you want to make 700 RWHP, an LSx engine cannot do it unless its an all out race engine on RASE GAS with ridiculous compression. Not very street friendly or daily driver friendly. A BBC can do that and still be a mild build that will run on 91 octane and last for years on end.
12-26-2008, 06:29 PM
#36
Im not on crack, crack is too expensive so i usually just drink some Draino and call it a night. And yeah try building a BBC that makes 800whp N/A and doesnt cost atleast 20k to build. And you are crazy if you think a BBC is half as efficient as a LSX, there is no comparison in efficiency , weight, or power. A 454 LSX will make a 454 BBC look weak and weigh 250lbs less doing it Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that a normally aspirated BBC will make an LSx engine look like a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine in every way possible. An all-out LSx engine build will NEVER make near the power of an all-out BBC build. Its just too bad it takes $10,000 in fabbing the car alone to stuff it in a 1998-2002 F-Body. I'd do it in a second if it was easier.
It does not take that much money, K-member or screw with the motor mounts, exhaust, beat on the trans tunnel a little, cut back the cowl area, may have to mod the factory k-member a hair to clear the oil pan, and there you go.
For 10k someone is robing you and laughing at the same time.
P.S. Two seasons ago I wanted to race a local N/A to his TT C6... he wanted nothing to do with my car and knew it was old parts and an old motor
It had a carb and I drove it every nice Saturday.
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NewOrleansLT1 (05-23-2021)
12-26-2008, 10:26 PM
#37
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a LSx engine is basically a SBC. I would take 598 or 632 bbc over SBC any day. One of my turbo cars maxes out at 700 rwhp on mustang dyno which is way more than enough for the street. Right now u could buy a bbc on pump gas that makes the same power on motor , no more lag. which is what im thinking of doing maybe...
the BBC vs LSx efficiency argue is pretty pointless since all gas engines are generally 25-30% efficient no progress there.
lastly if your concerned about gas mileage why would u want 500,600hp , 1000 rwhp engines???
the BBC vs LSx efficiency argue is pretty pointless since all gas engines are generally 25-30% efficient no progress there.
lastly if your concerned about gas mileage why would u want 500,600hp , 1000 rwhp engines???
12-26-2008, 11:02 PM
#38
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Im not on crack, crack is too expensive so i usually just drink some Draino and call it a night. And yeah try building a BBC that makes 800whp N/A and doesnt cost atleast 20k to build. And you are crazy if you think a BBC is half as efficient as a LSX, there is no comparison in efficiency , weight, or power. A 454 LSX will make a 454 BBC look weak and weigh 250lbs less doing it Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???
Im a huge fan of bbcs but the LSX is superior in nearly every area, its the future man. BBCs will proly keep getting better but I have chosen to join the darkside and start winning races with fuel injection and modern technology. Now i wonder if i can find a 3/4 cam and some pop-ups for my ls3???And for a few grand more you can get fuel injection-right out of the crate.
250lbs? I think you need to look again- BBC w/ Aluminum heads are weighing in around 565lbs FULLY dressed. The BBC bare block only weighs about 30-40lbs more than a LSX block- and you can get a lot more cubes out of them. (About 582 w/ a 9.8 deck- well over 600 w/ a tall deck)
They used to paint BBC w/ lead paint....maybe I've chewed on a few too many....
Richard
12-27-2008, 01:11 AM
#39
Sorry, but that is incorrect, there is no "percentage" loss, if you dyno a engine and then dyno it in the car, you will lose 45-70 HP, depending on auto/standard, stall (loos/tight), rearend(rotating mass of gear size), even the drive shaft weight.
Used to be many that though there was a percent, but the day you lose 300 HP thru drive train loss, you must be using it in a earth mover.
Used to be many that though there was a percent, but the day you lose 300 HP thru drive train loss, you must be using it in a earth mover.
12-27-2008, 01:19 AM
#40
Sorry, but that is incorrect, there is no "percentage" loss, if you dyno a engine and then dyno it in the car, you will lose 45-70 HP, depending on auto/standard, stall (loos/tight), rearend(rotating mass of gear size), even the drive shaft weight.
Used to be many that though there was a percent, but the day you lose 300 HP thru drive train loss, you must be using it in a earth mover.
Used to be many that though there was a percent, but the day you lose 300 HP thru drive train loss, you must be using it in a earth mover.
582ci BBC by Bischoff: $14,000 complete engine.
http://www.besracing.com/582-special-crate-engines.html