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prices are gonna continue to climb for sure. Hagerty already said the WS6 is going to be a huge money maker. I've seen piles of crap for close to $15k.
Hagerty is all about making money. Their values increase and you up your guaranteed value for more money out of your pocket. Next guy does the same and so on..
Hagerty already said the WS6 is going to be a huge money maker.
Thing about Hagerty is...
Originally Posted by Dren
Hagerty is all about making money. Their values increase and you up your guaranteed value for more money out of your pocket. Next guy does the same and so on..
But beyond that, Hagerty openly admits that their matrix for determining listed value also includes asking price data. This is why I generally take their numbers with a grain of salt, as we all know that asking prices rarely reflect actual sale prices (never once have I paid asking price for any collector car I've ever bought, in fact the last one [my '74] was listed for 35% more than what I ended up paying - or if you want to do the math the other way around, I paid 25% less than asking price).
You make some good points. However, mods rarely add actual value to a car. That's one of the reasons why you can dump so much money into this hobby and never get anything close to your investment back out of it. A heavily modded car can certainly bring in some money, but its not anywhere close to what it cost to build it. Part of the issue is that if you buy a modded car you'll probably end up undoing a lot of potentially questionable work by the previous owner. I think a factory car or one with only light bolt ons is almost always more desirable than something heavily modified unless the car was built by a reputable shop or something.
I could be wrong though.
I definitely don't disagree with your general line of thinking, but in the case of this specific car and situation I just don't see it being a significant factor. At worst, the mildly built low mile LS6 long block won't really do anything to impact "originality" value as no serious collector looking for an original #1 or #2 car would be considering this (partially) restored example anyway (at least not until enough years have passed that all supply of #1 or #2 original LS1 Firehawks has been exhausted - which is not going to be in the foreseeable future). At best, the folks who don't really care about the fact it's been partially restored may appreciate the fresher (lower mile) engine and the increased performance (while still looking and behaving like a relatively stock car), and this might actually make the car more desirable to said folks (meaning those who weren't looking for an original, unrestored collector car in the first place).
Again, I don't necessarily think that the engine swap would make this particular car worth significantly more OR less, I just don't think it really matters much either way as it's not a super low mile perfect original example. So if the OP gets more enjoyment out of the engine swap during the time he owns it, I don't really think he's doing much (if any) harm to future sales prospects. But that's just my opinion.
This might be the time to buy a 4th gen before the prices start to climb.
They have been climbing for awhile. The question is, will it continue?? You need the old crystal ball for that one. I know whenever I look, just for grins, there is nothing out there for 'cheap' anymore. I can not replace my ride for under $15k - $17k unless I want to sink some serious $$$ into it. Maybe even that price range is too low. That was not the case a few years back. Low teens was very possible.
Last edited by NC01TA; 08-04-2023 at 08:02 AM.
Reason: Added info
Do the suspension mods, LS6 engine and enjoy the car. Document and keep paper work etc as the usually helps if sale time comes at some point.
At 59,000 miles, definitely the car is not low mile or collectable in my opinion, regardless of condition. Under 20,000 miles is low & up to 40,000 miles retains some collector value. There are of course a few buyers that will pay premium price for a very nice condition car despite the higher miles.
The collector cars have 5K or maybe 10K miles or less. Pretty much everything else mileage wise is determined by condition. A 50K car can be trashed and a 150K car can be pristine. It really depends on the owner.
Last edited by wannafbody; 08-05-2023 at 09:43 AM.
Hagerty is all about making money. Their values increase and you up your guaranteed value for more money out of your pocket. Next guy does the same and so on..
doesn't matter then, even if it's rigged like you say. The consumer wins because the sales prices are "increasing". Plus, hagerty and the classic car insurance companies cost about 1/3rd the price of "regular" insurance companies. You think I GAF about spending $300 a year on insurance? NOPE.
the new generation of car guys are people like me in their 30s and 40s. Therefore the wanted cars are going to be from the 90s and 00s. The 50s-70s cars will be dying off.
doesn't matter then, even if it's rigged like you say. The consumer wins because the sales prices are "increasing".
But then the consumer only "wins" if they have to file a claim for total loss. If they just want to sell the car, they may be disappointed to find that Hagerty's numbers are often inflated.
Originally Posted by slothman
...Therefore the wanted cars are going to be from the 90s and 00s. The 50s-70s cars will be dying off.
Not so sure about that. I'm still in the 40-something age group, and I'm deeply attached to the old dinosaurs of the 1970s and prior. I like 4th gens enough that I bought two of them brand new, and I've been a continuous 4th gen owner for nearly 25 years now, but they just don't compare to the unique driving experience of older machinery. I'm not a Pro-touring person at all, but those folks have really reinvigorated the '60s and '70s stuff and made it appeal to many in the younger crowd (at least those who can afford it) who otherwise might not have been interested. I don't see those cars going anywhere as long as this hobby is alive. And the more that the EPA cracks down on PCM tuning and ODBII cars, the more that older stuff will be desirable to folks looking to modify a car; I could definitely see a scenario where '60s-'80s cars only get even more expensive and popular within the hobby.
But then the consumer only "wins" if they have to file a claim for total loss. If they just want to sell the car, they may be disappointed to find that Hagerty's numbers are often inflated.
Not so sure about that. I'm still in the 40-something age group, and I'm deeply attached to the old dinosaurs of the 1970s and prior. I like 4th gens enough that I bought two of them brand new, and I've been a continuous 4th gen owner for nearly 25 years now, but they just don't compare to the unique driving experience of older machinery. I'm not a Pro-touring person at all, but those folks have really reinvigorated the '60s and '70s stuff and made it appeal to many in the younger crowd (at least those who can afford it) who otherwise might not have been interested. I don't see those cars going anywhere as long as this hobby is alive. And the more that the EPA cracks down on PCM tuning and ODBII cars, the more that older stuff will be desirable to folks looking to modify a car; I could definitely see a scenario where '60s-'80s cars only get even more expensive and popular within the hobby.
Hagerty numbers may be inflated. There is a good medium with that and Nada (which is now JD power). Regardless, the numbers have been steadily increasing. And the more electric **** they make, the more rare the gassers will become.
look at all the 90s cars. Most of them have exploded in price. Firebirds, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers, Supras, the list goes on and on. They used to be affordable LOL. they are going to be valuable like the 60s-70s muscle cars. Like 40, 50, $60k. It's funny talking to the Boomers about it. They ALL say " yeah back in high school I bought that car for $2500" .....
Viper prices seem to follow the same trends as other very desirable performance cars from what I've seen. Low mileage well cared for examples having a premium over high mileage well care for examples when comparing same versions and options. However, I'm far from a Viper expert.
Regarding future demand for 50-70's cars, I used to think a major decrease in demand would occur as younger generations become the source of demand.
Less sure of that now.
1) Zoomies (Gen Z) like style and older cars have style. Could also see the Zoomies liking resto-mod'd electrified versions of older muscle cars too.
2) Much to my surprise, my middle school granddaughter likes my 02 Z28 and has asked to drive it etc. Both she and her sister adored my 91 RS Camaro Convertible too. Never would have guessed either would look twice at an older car given the iPhone's & progressive values they favor.
3) Likewise stepson (Gen Z, mid 20's) wants my 72 vette & 99 T/A when I'm ready to sell etc. He likes his 91 Z28 and new Tundra so he's definitely a car guy.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 08-05-2023 at 09:59 AM.
I know I didn't spend all that money making my SS what it is today to sell it but if I decided to sell then there will be people questioning what's wrong with it? why are you selling? It has a lot of miles on it or it's been modded, the paint and body could use some work, interior, tires and wheels, etc., anything to use as bargaining chip to get the car for less money. I'm seeing less and less 4th gen Fbody cars out on the roads and most of them I do see are base models so that alone will increase the value of these cars, especially SLP cars.
I went to a huge cruise today. I'd guess there were a total of 6 or 7 4th gen TA's out of 1200+ cars. I'm not sure there were that many 3rd gen TA's there.
look at all the 90s cars. Most of them have exploded in price. Firebirds, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers, Supras, the list goes on and on. They used to be affordable LOL. they are going to be valuable like the 60s-70s muscle cars. Like 40, 50, $60k. It's funny talking to the Boomers about it. They ALL say " yeah back in high school I bought that car for $2500" .....
The rising tide has lifted all ships (i.e. bidenflation has caused dramatic increases in most collector car categories over the last few years), but I haven't seen any sign of the market cooling for the '60s/'70s stuff, nor do I think it's going to cool in the next 10-20 years. I look at where the value of my '71 Nova has gone over the ~15 years I've owned it - just crazy how much the prices have skyrocketed in parallel with the Chevelles. The demand for "original" powertrain examples of these cars might recede as the older hobbyists die off, but demand for these cars themselves will continue with more and more being converted to modern powertrains to satifiy many of the younger hobbyists.
'80s G-bodies are another huge standout for value increases; it used to be that only Turbo Buicks had any real value, but now pretty much any 2-door G-body commands an eye opening price if it's in really nice shape (especially one that was a "performance" model for its time). These cars were dinosaurs even in their day (old underpinnings, most were carb'ed, etc.) but they are highly sought after now.
In the late '90s I started a small local car club with a friend, we were mostly all 20-somethings back then and we had about 14 4th gen F-bodies in the group. Fast forward ~25 years and none of those guys still have a 4th gen except for me. They all moved on to other (newer) platforms, or older classics, or just left the hobby. I guess the question remains, will they return and pay big money for a nice 4th gen to relive their youth, or stick (or jump back in) with something newer that's faster out of the box, or not return to the hobby at all? Some of these guys also tend to land in that '60s/'70s pro-touring market. I don't think ALL of them will be fighting over the last remaining 4th gens as there have been so many interesting and factory fast performance cars built since that time (plus swaps into older cars have become so much easier than they were ~20 years ago), but I'm sure some of them will want to relive their past.
I definitely agree that the true collector grade #1 & #2 4th gens will certainly have (and continue to increase in) real value going forward, and this tide will also lift the lesser condition cars to some degree, but I think we are still at least a decade or two away from anyone paying $40-60k (in today's dollars - who knows what the value of $40-60k will actually be that far in advance) for a 59k mile '99 Firehawk that needs (or needed) significant restorative work - original engine or not.
I was talking today to a friend who's dad has a 70 Plymouth GTX. A few years back I told him his dad needed to increase the insurance value on the car, it was way too low. Well, they did that but he said that they were working on getting some people lined up to do an appraisal because the values have climbed so fast they aren't sure if the current value isn't too low. They might be off 25K or 50K in value, they aren't sure. And that's in just 2 years time.
'80s G-bodies are another huge standout for value increases; it used to be that only Turbo Buicks had any real value, but now pretty much any 2-door G-body commands an eye opening price if it's in really nice shape (especially one that was a "performance" model for its time). These cars were dinosaurs even in their day (old underpinnings, most were carb'ed, etc.) but they are highly sought after now.
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I think the Monte Carlo and Monte Carlo SS will be the ones that increase value the most besides the Buick Grand National. I think the Grand National will always be worth more, but I can see Monte Carlo being highly sought after. Other G-bodies I'm not so sure about.
Last edited by Spamfritter; 08-06-2023 at 12:22 PM.
I think the Monte Carlo and Monte Carlo SS will be the ones that increase value the most besides the Buick Grand National. I think the Grand National will always be worth more, but I can see Monte Carlo being highly sought after. Other G-bodies I'm not so sure about.
You can add Hurst/Olds and 442 to the list as well. They were "special" in the same way as the Monte SS and Turbo Regals in that they were fitted with a factory "high output" engine that was not offered in the base models. I seem to recall the Hurst/Olds also coming with an upgraded 8.5" rear (can't remember if the 442s did or not though). The '78-'81 Malibu coupe has also proven quite desirable in recent years. I agree that the various Turbo Regals will continue to lead the charge, but all of the nice condition G-body coupes have already proven to be value gainers.
This thread really took off. Thanks for all the input guys. I've decided to keep the LS6 and suspension parts for my replacement Pewter Trans Am, whenever I find it. The setup is a perfect daily driver.
I've been working my way through the Firehawk. 59k mile engine and T56 are running great. The rear end was surprisingly noisy so I upgraded it with a 02 SS 10bolt and sway bar. Took the time to clean it up and replace the pinion seal.
08-03-2023, 07:54 PM
