Puppy kicked a 71' nova
06-19-2012, 08:14 PM
#21
Staging Lane
it takes alot of good parts to get 475 rwhp out of a 350. it takes alot more than a cam on what is probably stock heads. i've seen so many people who think they have a 450 hp 350 when in reality they are lucky to have 300 at the crank.
475 rwhp would take at least 215 cc heads and alot of compression, and alot of rpm.
475 rwhp would take at least 215 cc heads and alot of compression, and alot of rpm.
I've always been amazed at LSx power as I started off with old school small and big blocks before stepping up.
Last edited by Sticks n Stones; 06-19-2012 at 08:24 PM.
06-19-2012, 08:47 PM
#22
Its hard to believe some peoples mindset reguarding their car. This guy falls under the " my car is still better in every way even though you beat me". I hate douchebags like that, there is always an exscuse.
06-19-2012, 10:08 PM
#23
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As an old school owner, I apologize for arrogant purists everywhere. What many people don't realize is that (stockish, not a done up build) fast in the 60s and 70s is NOT the same as fast now. I've driven a stock pre-emissions 455, yes it had ***** and gobs of low end torque (ever driven a big block up a steep hill? 
) but compared to modern FI cars..the seat of your pants feeling isn't as intense and the numbers speak for themselves.
Honestly, no matter how fast, newer cars just don't have the same soul as the cars of the 60s and early 70s. I'm a huge fan of newer cars and engine technology (next car will be an LS1 TA) but there is something to be said for a carb'd V8 rumble that nothing can duplicate. Not the same as "FI is for kids", which we all know is his ego talking.
That being said, good job putting this tool in his place. Some people need some humbling to keep their heads on straight.
) but compared to modern FI cars..the seat of your pants feeling isn't as intense and the numbers speak for themselves.Honestly, no matter how fast, newer cars just don't have the same soul as the cars of the 60s and early 70s. I'm a huge fan of newer cars and engine technology (next car will be an LS1 TA) but there is something to be said for a carb'd V8 rumble that nothing can duplicate. Not the same as "FI is for kids", which we all know is his ego talking.
That being said, good job putting this tool in his place. Some people need some humbling to keep their heads on straight.
06-19-2012, 10:11 PM
#24
Agreed 100%. I've built a ton of 350sbc street builds and with them it's all about the rpm and heads/cam/valvetrain to support making that rpm. 475rwhp on pump gas would SOUND nasty as hell with the monstrous solid roller cam needed to support the 7,000 to 7,500rpms it would have to spin to make it. Not to mention at a minimum of a Victor tunnel ram and ported 850 double pumper or better yet a dominator style 1050 carb. All of which would dictate a absolute minimum of 3600 stall converter just to keep from embarrassing yourself with a bog every time you hit the gas with that big carb/single plane/huge cam setup.
I've always been amazed at LSx power as I started off with old school small and big blocks before stepping up.
I've always been amazed at LSx power as I started off with old school small and big blocks before stepping up.
I agree 100 percent. Sick power these LS1s make with simple mods compared to SBC modded to the max.
As an old school owner, I apologize for arrogant purists everywhere. What many people don't realize is that (stockish, not a done up build) fast in the 60s and 70s is NOT the same as fast now. I've driven a stock pre-emissions 455, yes it had ***** and gobs of low end torque (ever driven a big block up a steep hill? ) but compared to modern FI cars..the seat of your pants feeling isn't as intense and the numbers speak for themselves.
Honestly, no matter how fast, newer cars just don't have the same soul as the cars of the 60s and early 70s. I'm a huge fan of newer cars and engine technology (next car will be an LS1 TA) but there is something to be said for a carb'd V8 rumble that nothing can duplicate. Not the same as "FI is for kids", which we all know is his ego talking.
That being said, good job putting this tool in his place. Some people need some humbling to keep their heads on straight.
) but compared to modern FI cars..the seat of your pants feeling isn't as intense and the numbers speak for themselves.Honestly, no matter how fast, newer cars just don't have the same soul as the cars of the 60s and early 70s. I'm a huge fan of newer cars and engine technology (next car will be an LS1 TA) but there is something to be said for a carb'd V8 rumble that nothing can duplicate. Not the same as "FI is for kids", which we all know is his ego talking.
That being said, good job putting this tool in his place. Some people need some humbling to keep their heads on straight.
06-19-2012, 10:59 PM
#25
Teching In
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like KidRock says:="it ain't cocky if you back it up" i'm ol skool,but am PRO fuel injection,esp. LS power. my 355 supercharged "CARB'd" IROC is only 2tenths faster than my bone stock '99 LS
06-20-2012, 09:08 AM
#26
That's why I put a ls1 in my classic muscle.
With the cam and exhaust shaking the car at lights it's hard to convince people this is the same engine that came in a Fbody/Corvette from the late 90s-00s.
I hear a lot of "should have used a big block" from the older crowd...until they see the car run. If they're still ******** about it I make sure they know I get over 20mpg to boot.
With the cam and exhaust shaking the car at lights it's hard to convince people this is the same engine that came in a Fbody/Corvette from the late 90s-00s.
I hear a lot of "should have used a big block" from the older crowd...until they see the car run. If they're still ******** about it I make sure they know I get over 20mpg to boot.
06-22-2012, 06:33 PM
#27
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=thunderstruck507;16437403]That's why I put a ls1 in my classic muscle.
With the cam and exhaust shaking the car at lights it's hard to convince people this is the same engine that came in a Fbody/Corvette from the late 90s-00s.
I hear a lot of "should have used a big block" from the older crowd...until they see the car run. If they're still ******** about it I make sure they know I get over 20mpg to boot.
I forgot to mention the mpg
With the cam and exhaust shaking the car at lights it's hard to convince people this is the same engine that came in a Fbody/Corvette from the late 90s-00s.
I hear a lot of "should have used a big block" from the older crowd...until they see the car run. If they're still ******** about it I make sure they know I get over 20mpg to boot.
I forgot to mention the mpg
06-22-2012, 07:07 PM
#28
old SBC Im from that era of solid/roller cam Small Block chevys and built many and to get 450 HP you had to have alot of compression some decent ported heads and a big stick in it with a good intake and 750 to 850 Holley carb sitting on top of it jetted pretty fat. Remember those heads are 23 degree heads and the Ls1 stuff is a freaking 15 degree head and is miles ahead of the old SBC stuff bone stock!! Technology is impressive. Back in those days Buick made a small block head that was 15 or 18 degree that flowed great but it was expensive as hell and pure race head. The LS1 head is good,,,The LS2 is better but that LS3 head is badass for sure.
06-23-2012, 04:04 PM
#32
TECH Enthusiast
I noticed on a vintage F-body site where a 1979 6.6L T/A with high compression heads, mild cam, long tube headers, Edelbrock intake, Holley carb. made 290rwhp and 369rwtq. I doubt the engine could turn higher than 5500rpm.
We did not have rear wheel dynos back in the day. Car magazines would be very happy if they reached 1 hp per cubic inch on an engine dyno with performance tests. I do recall the typical street hero build was a follows: 350cid equipped with hooker 4into1 headers w/o cats & true duals, hi-energy 268H camshaft or something hydraulic from Crane, edelbrock copy of the LT1 intake manifold, Holley 700cfm. Folks with more money would add 2.02 valve heads from early year cars.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
We did not have rear wheel dynos back in the day. Car magazines would be very happy if they reached 1 hp per cubic inch on an engine dyno with performance tests. I do recall the typical street hero build was a follows: 350cid equipped with hooker 4into1 headers w/o cats & true duals, hi-energy 268H camshaft or something hydraulic from Crane, edelbrock copy of the LT1 intake manifold, Holley 700cfm. Folks with more money would add 2.02 valve heads from early year cars.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
06-23-2012, 06:30 PM
#33
1979 ta Thats a 400 pontiac and they didnt make their power up high anyway plus if those were factory heads worked on they didnt flow much either. Small block 350,383.or 406 would toast a 400 pontiac any day.....455 is a different story.
06-23-2012, 07:35 PM
#34
TECH Fanatic
'We did not have rear wheel dynos back in the day'
Car magazines would be very happy if they reached 1 hp per cubic inch on an engine dyno with performance tests. I do recall the typical street hero build was a follows: 350cid equipped with hooker 4into1 headers w/o cats & true duals, hi-energy 268H camshaft or something hydraulic from Crane, edelbrock copy of the LT1 intake manifold, Holley 700cfm. Folks with more money would add 2.02 valve heads from early year cars.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
06-23-2012, 07:49 PM
#35
TECH Enthusiast
I read PHR, Hot Rod and Car Craft religiously in the early-mid 1980s and do not recall wheel dynos in their articles.
No one at the track ever spoke in terms of rear wheel power and we had no means to measure locally. No shop in my area ever had one.
No one at the track ever spoke in terms of rear wheel power and we had no means to measure locally. No shop in my area ever had one.
06-24-2012, 08:05 AM
#36
10 Second Club
I noticed on a vintage F-body site where a 1979 6.6L T/A with high compression heads, mild cam, long tube headers, Edelbrock intake, Holley carb. made 290rwhp and 369rwtq. I doubt the engine could turn higher than 5500rpm.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
pontiacs are a different animal. i just finished assembling a mild 455 ho for my 75 t\a. approx 425 hp and 550 ft\lbs torque! lol
alot of advancement has come in the way of pontiac power because of dave bisschop in BC. he has been producing some unreal power out of them. probably comparable to a BBC.
there are also two different style heads for pontiac. D-port and round port. the round ports are the high flowing ones, but 99% of pontiacs are D port. they are the torqu monsters.
06-24-2012, 10:22 AM
#37
TECH Enthusiast
I know. I owned a 1970 RAIII T/A and 1979 T/A 6.6 and worked on my Pontiacs. We did not have much back then in terms of options.Chevy almost always in the lead.
I noticed Edelbrock's aluminum heads mirror the round port RAIV/455HO.
I noticed Edelbrock's aluminum heads mirror the round port RAIV/455HO.
06-25-2012, 07:20 AM
#38
10 Second Club
yeah they are. edelbrock also makes a D port head now
06-25-2012, 09:59 AM
#39
I do recall the typical street hero build was a follows: 350cid equipped with hooker 4into1 headers w/o cats & true duals, hi-energy 268H camshaft or something hydraulic from Crane, edelbrock copy of the LT1 intake manifold, Holley 700cfm. Folks with more money would add 2.02 valve heads from early year cars.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
I understand that is about 240-250rwhp from an experienced builder who works in the Gen 1 SBC.
350 .030 over with flat top pistons with 4 reliefs (ran on 87 fine)
882 heads (he ported them pretty well)
comp 268H cam (.454/.454 lift)
Edelbrock performer intake
Holley 670 Street Avenger
HEI
cheap headers
With 2.25" duals, 700r4 with corvette converter, 3.42 rear gear in my car at a 3900# race weight that combo did manage 9.15-9.2@77-78mph in the 1/8th in 2500-3000ft DA.
I thought it was fast. It did do pretty good on gas though with high teens.
06-25-2012, 10:44 AM
#40
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good kill... I'd take yer money 
But just because its an iron vortec headed sbc don't mean its slow... my car dips into the 10's on a 100 shot. Its nothing more then a great basic combo with a lot of time in making it work. I get people telling me that their old muscle car went 10's. All I do is politely tell them "no it didn't, maybe in the 1/8th"
But just because its an iron vortec headed sbc don't mean its slow... my car dips into the 10's on a 100 shot. Its nothing more then a great basic combo with a lot of time in making it work. I get people telling me that their old muscle car went 10's. All I do is politely tell them "no it didn't, maybe in the 1/8th"