Should I run an mr2 for money.
01-30-2006, 12:00 PM
#41
Sounds like some sick runs and post that vid ASAP! Also just out of curiosity does the mr2 engine have a forged short block? I agree try to go from a dig as your low end torque should he lp you get the jump and hopefully hold him off. props for racing him from a roll on and off the spray becaus elord knows I wouldnt want to tangle with a 480+ whp MR2 from a roll, thing must pull like crazy once that turbo spools!
01-30-2006, 12:02 PM
#42
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Awesome. Just awesome. Props to both of you. Sounds like you guys are pretty freaking crazy LOL.
That MR2 sounds like its easaly capable of redlineing top gear in short order. Time of some cutom ratios hehehe.
Ive been looking at 3SGTE lately, and I gotta say, what a mean little motor. Its a shame they did not stick around like the 4G63. Toyo does have an AWD Corolla afterall
Can you imagine a Corolla with Evo or STi level power? Now thats just imoral
That MR2 sounds like its easaly capable of redlineing top gear in short order. Time of some cutom ratios hehehe.
Ive been looking at 3SGTE lately, and I gotta say, what a mean little motor. Its a shame they did not stick around like the 4G63. Toyo does have an AWD Corolla afterall
Can you imagine a Corolla with Evo or STi level power? Now thats just imoral
01-30-2006, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sparetire
As said before, the turbo determines max airflow. No matter how baddass the engine, the turbo will determine how much air is getting into it. So lets make a specific example. Lets say you have a monster turbo good for 60 lbs of air per minute. Just to give a compairison, the Mitsu 20G is good for about 44lbs/min. Lets say you put Mr. 60lber on a B18 Civic and on a Viper. The Viper will flow at most 60 lbs of air. The B18 will flow at most (you guessed it) 60 lbs of air. Now the B18 will have to rev to the moon and be modded out the *** to do it, but that is its' max flow capacity. The Viper on the other hand likely would not need to much to use all that flow. At some point, you would see the boost pressure drop off and/or the intake temps skyrocket to the moon causing knock in the Viper, as the V10 revs increased and it started to simply swallow more air than the turbo can provide. At that point, the turbo becomes a restriction, limiting power.
You would see the power peak on the dyno moving lower into the rpm band, and power falling off way to early in the rev range. The Viper simply will not make any more, unless you use nitrous. Same for the B18. It will hit a point where it can not make any more power with that 60lb turbo without nitrous. And since engines are big air pumps that max number will be in the same range for both. The amount of air you can swallow determines how much power you make. Now the B18 might be at 10K to make the power the Viper makes at 6K, but the max power will be in the same range. The Viper would have a slightly higher number for max, as its greater displacement would result in a more efficient burn (at least theoretically). But thats not going to be more than 100hp more.
This is not at all far fetched. A 2.3 or 2.4L DSM with a aftermarket intake mani and cams will esaly outrun a 42lb/min E3 16G in the upper revs. The engine can simply start to eat all the air the turbo can provide. Look on some DSM boards and you will hear all about guys who can get 25psi on the 16G, but how the boost falls to 20PSI or 19PSI by redline as the flow gets up to 42lbs/minute. This is an excellent example. Its also why no DSM will crack 450WHP on a E3 16G turbo, no matter if its a 2L or a 2.4L. The 2L just has to rev higher to do it. In fact, there are plenty of high reving cammed 2L's that do just that with 16Gs. And if you put a single E3 16G on said Viper, it would not get more than 500WHP. The turbo would choke it off. Put a stock T-25 from a 2G DSM on it and you would have turbo Viper making less power than stock.
You actually see this on many factory turbo cars, like Audi/VW 1.8T motors. They have great lowend for daily duty, but crap top end because the K03 turbo is so freaking weak on all out flow. The motor really needs more air to make any more power. This is why a lil 1.8 Audi turbo 4 has a torque peak in the same area as a LS1, though its much much less.
You would see the power peak on the dyno moving lower into the rpm band, and power falling off way to early in the rev range. The Viper simply will not make any more, unless you use nitrous. Same for the B18. It will hit a point where it can not make any more power with that 60lb turbo without nitrous. And since engines are big air pumps that max number will be in the same range for both. The amount of air you can swallow determines how much power you make. Now the B18 might be at 10K to make the power the Viper makes at 6K, but the max power will be in the same range. The Viper would have a slightly higher number for max, as its greater displacement would result in a more efficient burn (at least theoretically). But thats not going to be more than 100hp more.
This is not at all far fetched. A 2.3 or 2.4L DSM with a aftermarket intake mani and cams will esaly outrun a 42lb/min E3 16G in the upper revs. The engine can simply start to eat all the air the turbo can provide. Look on some DSM boards and you will hear all about guys who can get 25psi on the 16G, but how the boost falls to 20PSI or 19PSI by redline as the flow gets up to 42lbs/minute. This is an excellent example. Its also why no DSM will crack 450WHP on a E3 16G turbo, no matter if its a 2L or a 2.4L. The 2L just has to rev higher to do it. In fact, there are plenty of high reving cammed 2L's that do just that with 16Gs. And if you put a single E3 16G on said Viper, it would not get more than 500WHP. The turbo would choke it off. Put a stock T-25 from a 2G DSM on it and you would have turbo Viper making less power than stock.
You actually see this on many factory turbo cars, like Audi/VW 1.8T motors. They have great lowend for daily duty, but crap top end because the K03 turbo is so freaking weak on all out flow. The motor really needs more air to make any more power. This is why a lil 1.8 Audi turbo 4 has a torque peak in the same area as a LS1, though its much much less.
I understand everything you said, but you didn't answer my question is my post above. I still don't undertsnad how a b18 will make the same amount of power as a Viper with the same turbo, and you are saying at the same boost pressure also! By what you said above. I do not understand this. Even though airflow is the same through the turbo.
An efficient engine design uses less boost to make more power, but also a higher displacement engine makes more power at the same boost as a much smaller engine. Is this not true? Example. Rotaries being twice the displacement as mazda said, they make more power with less boost as say anything smaller.
01-31-2006, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LSINA7
I understand everything you said, but you didn't answer my question is my post above. I still don't undertsnad how a b18 will make the same amount of power as a Viper with the same turbo, and you are saying at the same boost pressure also! By what you said above. I do not understand this. Even though airflow is the same through the turbo.
An efficient engine design uses less boost to make more power, but also a higher displacement engine makes more power at the same boost as a much smaller engine. Is this not true? Example . Rotaries being twice the displacement as mazda said, they make more power with less boost as say anything smaller.
An efficient engine design uses less boost to make more power, but also a higher displacement engine makes more power at the same boost as a much smaller engine. Is this not true? Example . Rotaries being twice the displacement as mazda said, they make more power with less boost as say anything smaller.
01-31-2006, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LSINA7
I understand everything you said, but you didn't answer my question is my post above. I still don't undertsnad how a b18 will make the same amount of power as a Viper with the same turbo, and you are saying at the same boost pressure also! By what you said above. I do not understand this. Even though airflow is the same through the turbo.
01-31-2006, 10:51 AM
#47
All an engine is is a big air pump (oversimplified) if a small engine revs high enough, it can push as much air through itself as a larger, slower moving engine. It's just physics, however, at higher rpms, i would assume a higher parasitic loss would be apparent.
01-31-2006, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LSINA7
I understand everything you said, but you didn't answer my question is my post above. I still don't undertsnad how a b18 will make the same amount of power as a Viper with the same turbo, and you are saying at the same boost pressure also! By what you said above. I do not understand this. Even though airflow is the same through the turbo.
An efficient engine design uses less boost to make more power, but also a higher displacement engine makes more power at the same boost as a much smaller engine. Is this not true? Example. Rotaries being twice the displacement as mazda said, they make more power with less boost as say anything smaller.
An efficient engine design uses less boost to make more power, but also a higher displacement engine makes more power at the same boost as a much smaller engine. Is this not true? Example. Rotaries being twice the displacement as mazda said, they make more power with less boost as say anything smaller.
To answer what you said about a larger engine making more power on less boost. Very very true. But thats not the whole picture. The most common mis-perception people have about FI(especially turbos) is that Boost=Flow. It does not. 30PSI on that B18 is a lot less FLOW than 30PSI on the Viper. BUT Remember, a turbo can only flow so much, regardless of what boost it does it at. So the same 60LB/Min turbo might be able to supply 10PSI at peak power RPM on the Viper, and 35+PSI on the B18 at peak power RPM. It will not be able to run any higher boost on the Viper, as its air simply being processed to fast by that beast. So yes, the Viper makes that same power on less boost. But the FLOW is the SAME. And turbos are rated on FLOW, not max BOOST. And the FLOW is the amount of air into the motor. Thats what determines power. Flow is expressed most appropriately in LBs of air per Min. And every turbo has a max LBs/Min rating regardless of what engine it is on.
Regarding rotaries. They are not twice the displacement Mazda claims, but since they are effectively two stroke cycling engines as opposed to standard 4 stroke engines, they do act very much like engines twice their size, as they get two power strokes for every one on a regular motor like ours. Basicly, we get 250 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of every cylinder on our 4 stroke motors. They get 500 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of each rotor in their weird arsed wankels
(In fact, in most racing series, a rotary that is actually 1.3L is considered a 2.6L to keep things fair.)Having said that, just as in the Viper motor, that turbo can only give the rotary 60LBS/Min airflow. So maybe the rotary is going to burn up that airflow twice as fast as same displacement piston motor. So lets say you have a 1.3L 13B rotary (found in RX7 turbos) and a 1.3L I-4. That rotary is going to swallow the 60LBs/Min of air much faster than the 1.3L I-4. You would in fact see the rotary hitting peak power at a lower RPM than the I-4. But again, they are both flowing the same amount of air, thus the same amount of fuel, and thus the same power.
Now thats all nice theory. In the real world, you will not see the B18 and the Viper make the same power exactly down the .01hp. The Viper will likely be a bit more efficient at burning the fuel air mix, as its got more spark plugs to light it, and more volume to burn the mix. Its also going to be runing cooler, which helps efficency. So indeed, you will see a noticable difference in max power. Thats why they give ranges of power. And those ranges of power are pretty acurate (assuming they dont lie LOL) within reason. So say Mr. 60LBS/Min turbo is rated at 600-700HP Max, thats going to be true of everything from a 2V GT to a DSM. The B18 or Viper might be a lil outside that range, but not a whole lot given that they both are capable of processing that flow effectively. And there most definitely are B18s that can swallow 60lbs and ask where the main course is, just as there are Vipers that will do that.
Last edited by Sparetire; 01-31-2006 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Grammar and spelling LOL
01-31-2006, 06:04 PM
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True. But VE varies from what, .85 to .95? Thats accounted for in a well calculated max power range for a turbo. Thats why I mentioned that the most extreme examples like aB18 versus an 8.3L might be out of the range. But even a DOHC 4G63 versus an SOHC motor of more than twice the displacement and likely less VE will be in the same max power range. It will need to rev to the moon, but its there.
Beyond that, VE kinda escapes me. As I hear it, a pushrod motor tends to have less VE than some DOHC motor. Yet the larger displacement pushrod will be more efficent in terms of burning fuel completely given the larger space it has to work with to burn the mix.
Beyond that, VE kinda escapes me. As I hear it, a pushrod motor tends to have less VE than some DOHC motor. Yet the larger displacement pushrod will be more efficent in terms of burning fuel completely given the larger space it has to work with to burn the mix.
01-31-2006, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sparetire
Basicly, the turbo is the controlling factor in how much air gets in and out. After it hits its max flow rating, it simply cant flow any more. At that point it is a restriction, not a power adder. Thus the engine simply will not be able to get any more air. Thus it will not make any more power. No matter if its 25 liters, once its using all 60lbs of air per minute, it cant process any more air to burn any more fuel and make any more power. The same is true of a 1L engine. The 25L might make max power at like 1000 RPM and 3psi, while the 1L makes max power at 20000 RPM and 30PSI. But the max amount of force being created is the same because both engines are processing the same amount of air and fuel. I did not mean to imply that they would do this at the same boost (I don't think I did, but then it was long post LOL). As I said before, you could strap a tiny turbo meant for a European 1L Smart car to a Viper, and you would have a Viper making less power than stock. The tiny turbo cant flow as much as the Viper motor can process, even in stock form, let alone when modded.
To answer what you said about a larger engine making more power on less boost. Very very true. But thats not the whole picture. The most common mis-perception people have about FI(especially turbos) is that Boost=Flow. It does not. 30PSI on that B18 is a lot less FLOW than 30PSI on the Viper. BUT Remember, a turbo can only flow so much, regardless of what boost it does it at. So the same 60LB/Min turbo might be able to supply 10PSI at peak power RPM on the Viper, and 35+PSI on the B18 at peak power RPM. It will not be able to run any higher boost on the Viper, as its air simply being processed to fast by that beast. So yes, the Viper makes that same power on less boost. But the FLOW is the SAME. And turbos are rated on FLOW, not max BOOST. And the FLOW is the amount of air into the motor. Thats what determines power. Flow is expressed most appropriately in LBs of air per Min. And every turbo has a max LBs/Min rating regardless of what engine it is on.
Regarding rotaries. They are not twice the displacement Mazda claims, but since they are effectively two stroke cycling engines as opposed to standard 4 stroke engines, they do act very much like engines twice their size, as they get two power strokes for every one on a regular motor like ours. Basicly, we get 250 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of every cylinder on our 4 stroke motors. They get 500 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of each rotor in their weird arsed wankels (In fact, in most racing series, a rotary that is actually 1.3L is considered a 2.6L to keep things fair.)
Having said that, just as in the Viper motor, that turbo can only give the rotary 60LBS/Min airflow. So maybe the rotary is going to burn up that airflow twice as fast as same displacement piston motor. So lets say you have a 1.3L 13B rotary (found in RX7 turbos) and a 1.3L I-4. That rotary is going to swallow the 60LBs/Min of air much faster than the 1.3L I-4. You would in fact see the rotary hitting peak power at a lower RPM than the I-4. But again, they are both flowing the same amount of air, thus the same amount of fuel, and thus the same power.
Now thats all nice theory. In the real world, you will not see the B18 and the Viper make the same power exactly down the .01hp. The Viper will likely be a bit more efficient at burning the fuel air mix, as its got more spark plugs to light it, and more volume to burn the mix. Its also going to be runing cooler, which helps efficency. So indeed, you will see a noticable difference in max power. Thats why they give ranges of power. And those ranges of power are pretty acurate (assuming they dont lie LOL) within reason. So say Mr. 60LBS/Min turbo is rated at 600-700HP Max, thats going to be true of everything from a 2V GT to a DSM. The B18 or Viper might be a lil outside that range, but not a whole lot given that they both are capable of processing that flow effectively. And there most definitely are B18s that can swallow 60lbs and ask where the main course is, just as there are Vipers that will do that.
To answer what you said about a larger engine making more power on less boost. Very very true. But thats not the whole picture. The most common mis-perception people have about FI(especially turbos) is that Boost=Flow. It does not. 30PSI on that B18 is a lot less FLOW than 30PSI on the Viper. BUT Remember, a turbo can only flow so much, regardless of what boost it does it at. So the same 60LB/Min turbo might be able to supply 10PSI at peak power RPM on the Viper, and 35+PSI on the B18 at peak power RPM. It will not be able to run any higher boost on the Viper, as its air simply being processed to fast by that beast. So yes, the Viper makes that same power on less boost. But the FLOW is the SAME. And turbos are rated on FLOW, not max BOOST. And the FLOW is the amount of air into the motor. Thats what determines power. Flow is expressed most appropriately in LBs of air per Min. And every turbo has a max LBs/Min rating regardless of what engine it is on.
Regarding rotaries. They are not twice the displacement Mazda claims, but since they are effectively two stroke cycling engines as opposed to standard 4 stroke engines, they do act very much like engines twice their size, as they get two power strokes for every one on a regular motor like ours. Basicly, we get 250 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of every cylinder on our 4 stroke motors. They get 500 power strokes for every 1000 rotations of each rotor in their weird arsed wankels
(In fact, in most racing series, a rotary that is actually 1.3L is considered a 2.6L to keep things fair.)Having said that, just as in the Viper motor, that turbo can only give the rotary 60LBS/Min airflow. So maybe the rotary is going to burn up that airflow twice as fast as same displacement piston motor. So lets say you have a 1.3L 13B rotary (found in RX7 turbos) and a 1.3L I-4. That rotary is going to swallow the 60LBs/Min of air much faster than the 1.3L I-4. You would in fact see the rotary hitting peak power at a lower RPM than the I-4. But again, they are both flowing the same amount of air, thus the same amount of fuel, and thus the same power.
Now thats all nice theory. In the real world, you will not see the B18 and the Viper make the same power exactly down the .01hp. The Viper will likely be a bit more efficient at burning the fuel air mix, as its got more spark plugs to light it, and more volume to burn the mix. Its also going to be runing cooler, which helps efficency. So indeed, you will see a noticable difference in max power. Thats why they give ranges of power. And those ranges of power are pretty acurate (assuming they dont lie LOL) within reason. So say Mr. 60LBS/Min turbo is rated at 600-700HP Max, thats going to be true of everything from a 2V GT to a DSM. The B18 or Viper might be a lil outside that range, but not a whole lot given that they both are capable of processing that flow effectively. And there most definitely are B18s that can swallow 60lbs and ask where the main course is, just as there are Vipers that will do that.
I agree with most of what you said 100%, maybe I had confused something you said when I was reading. However, I meant to say rotaries acted like twice the displacement, not really are twice. That has been argued for a long time.
01-31-2006, 07:50 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by LSINA7
The turbo you posted on that Supra was a T88-34D, sorry I didn't see that.
Yes the Trust turbos systems are smaller than you would think compared to others, but what does all this have to do with anything? Why do you say I know nothing about that, because I thought the turbo was a t88 thumper/t88-34h turbo, like the one on Gary White's Supra? Yet I know nothing about this topic.
None of this stupid battle has proved me wrong, I say MR2's don't make 600-700 whp very often if hardly at all. Prove me wrong. I have searched around for about 30 mintues. Not a thing.
Even with a turbonetics T-106, I don't see a MR2 3-gste motor making the same power as a 2jz-gte, so how can you give the turbo a horsepower number? In a Turbonetics catalog it probably says good for 2,600 horsepower. Make that.
I'm done with this, I like MR2's, but the original response was that there are plenty of 700+ MR2's, for me to search. Haven't found a thing.
Edit: When I say how can you give a turbo a horsepower number, this was meant for all cars. Not a specific car. Look back at my post. That was car specific when you said something about it. If you are referring to one car, then yes you can say the max it has produced. But you can't say this for all cars.
Yes the Trust turbos systems are smaller than you would think compared to others, but what does all this have to do with anything? Why do you say I know nothing about that, because I thought the turbo was a t88 thumper/t88-34h turbo, like the one on Gary White's Supra? Yet I know nothing about this topic.
None of this stupid battle has proved me wrong, I say MR2's don't make 600-700 whp very often if hardly at all. Prove me wrong. I have searched around for about 30 mintues. Not a thing.
Even with a turbonetics T-106, I don't see a MR2 3-gste motor making the same power as a 2jz-gte, so how can you give the turbo a horsepower number? In a Turbonetics catalog it probably says good for 2,600 horsepower. Make that.
I'm done with this, I like MR2's, but the original response was that there are plenty of 700+ MR2's, for me to search. Haven't found a thing.
Edit: When I say how can you give a turbo a horsepower number, this was meant for all cars. Not a specific car. Look back at my post. That was car specific when you said something about it. If you are referring to one car, then yes you can say the max it has produced. But you can't say this for all cars.
There's a local guy here who puts down 850RWHP all boost and close to a 1000 on juice.
02-01-2006, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MR2liter
Good Kill Chris. Once again to prove that MR2s are slow as hell. 
Thanx mr2liter, its been a long project. I've been working on my turbo 350z now. Not nearly as fast as the deuce, but quick as of now.
When is your beast going to be through? I've been reading and hearing about your car. Whats the update?
02-01-2006, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LSINA7
Was there a vid?
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....16680CF47D&p=1
02-01-2006, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by T-rex
A 1000 horse power beer can.Holy ****.
02-01-2006, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 25psi
Thanx mr2liter, its been a long project. I've been working on my turbo 350z now. Not nearly as fast as the deuce, but quick as of now.
When is your beast going to be through? I've been reading and hearing about your car. Whats the update?
When is your beast going to be through? I've been reading and hearing about your car. Whats the update?