YlwGTO4m3

dude what do you think is inside your turbo? IT'S AN IMPELLER. and it's not overcoming inefficiency, it's over coming the natural vacuum in the intake manifold. boost in the turbo means nothing. boost in the intake manifold is all that matters. and just because you have a turbo car doesn't mean you know ish about how they work. I can model flow maps, can you?

V-seriesTech

iTrader: (5)

so...did this gay, blown out of proportion race happen or what?

XakEp

I can read compressor maps - I dont need to model them. The nice guys at Garrett have already done all the work for me so there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

If youre stupid enough to compare an electric fan with a turbocharger and claim that boost in the intake manifold and boost in the IC pipes are somehow different then we have nothing else to discuss.

If I can take a 2.4L motor and pump 600 streetable horsepower out of it, I might know something.

Sparetire

I have no idea why your so pissed off. Cool it.

More flow means more 02 into the motor means more power as long as the motor is capable of buring it. Thats a known fact. Thats why people who data log turbo cars and tune for power with real tools such as AEM and speed density and DSMlink are not basing their setups fuel and timing curves on boost psi alone. They talk in terms of lbs of air per minute. How do you think fuel injection works? Especially with speed density setups? The ECU figures how dense the air is and how much volume is moving to determine how much fuel to put in. It does not and cannot know how much fuel to inject based on pressure alone. Density of the air combined with how fast its moving into the engine is lbs of air per minute. Not boost psi.
The more pounds of air per minute you burn with fuel, the more power you are making. Now some engines are more efficient etc, but thats the basic determining factor in how much power you are making at any point in the rev range. If boost determined it exclusively, then you would have 16G turbo DSMs running the same times as some of the full on drag guys and cutting 10s all over the place. This is not the case, even though there are guys out there running huge intercooling setups and other tricks hitting 28 or more psi on their E3 16Gs. I cant wait, I have one in my garage . I dont expect to hit 10s with it though. I dont expect to make more than 400WHP. While over 600 is not really all that big a deal in the DSM world anymore with big turbos. The 16G record without the juice AFAIK is still below 430WHP. You have guys making that on pump gas with less boost than the 16G needs using garret stuff.

The industrial fan example is pretty far out there, but lets look at it:
First, CFM is a very vague unit for this discussion. Thats because that fan will blow 5000 CFM in 32 F degree air and it will blow 5000 cfm in 100 degree F air. At 32 degrees, its blowing a lot more air than at 100 in terms of the actuall mass of air being moved. As you and I both said (if you'll read my post calmly and carefully), cool air is denser than hot air. Thats why I said that 50 lbs of cool air might make less pressure in a given space than 40 lbs of hot air. This is due to the cool air being denser. So CFM is vague and not very specific.

That said, your more or less right in that weird example, because that fan will not create a pressure difference, the car will not make much more power over stock in theory. Know why? Because the pressure differential creates FLOW. SO basicly, the fan car will not make power because its not flowing much air. Pressure itself is meaningless unless it creates flow in terms of lbs of air per minute. You could have a 700 degree IAT and 40 psi and get crap power, brecause you have crap density air. Not to mention the detonation issues. The engine is not really getting much more air becuase despite the insane velocity that 40 psi of boost pressure is making into the head, the air is so thin that the number of 02 molecules is pretty low per combustion.
Same reason you can breath faster at 18 thousand feet than at sea level and still get light headed from lack of 02. You're breathing faster, creating more pressure differential as you inhale and exhale and sucking down more volume, but still getting less 02. The desnity of 02 up there is crap.
The density of 02 in hot air is crap too. Pressure helps make power only because it produces flow. Gas moves from a high pressure area to a low area. Thats flow. Thats why a 10psi Viper makes more power than a 14psi SRT-4. It's flowing more air. If psi alone determined it, then the 14psi SRT would be buring more 02 than the Viper. It does not. While we're on that stuff, I got an A in engineering thermo.

Whoopdeedoo.

Yes heat is increased with pressure. And yes they make intercoolers. Intercoolers do not violate thermodynamic laws. They heat soak. So sure you might be able to cool down that intake air, the principals stated earlier still apply. It will get hotter when the turbo is out of its efficiency range. And as the turbo exceeds its flow limit, the motor will not make any more power. Period. That will happen on a undersized turbo thats being maxed out on a huge engine. Period. If you cant get any more 02 in you are not going to make any more power. That was the whole point back in the dark ages when this began.

As for point three. Yeah, thats exactly what I said. It is in fact one of the corner stones of what Im saying.

Im not trying to lecture, Im trying to explain. You dont like it, dont read it.

Sparetire

You would not get flow with huge turbo on stock tiny motor. Thats why you would not get power. The stock tiny motor will not be able to spool it in its limited stock rev range, meaning no flow. Now if it has a 10K redline or something, then yeah, hooray for the T-76. Then the motor is capable of reving high enough to flow enough to take advantage of the turbo.

Another way to look at it: If pressure determines power, how come a 14B stock 1G DSM down not make the exact same power from about 3500 to redline? Afterall, it has full boost from about 3500 to 7000.
It has the familiar shape of a normal dyno graph. It power varies by RPMs. This is because the RPMs a motor is turning is a huge part of how much flow it is making. The DSM makes less power at 3500RPM than at 5000RPM, because while the boost is identical, the motor is flowing more at 5000RPM.

YlwGTO4m3

i NEVER said pressure determines power, i said pressure in the intake manifold is the definition of boost. the point of the fan example was to show that a non pressurized flow means dickall, no matter how much it is. Sorry about the cold air thing, your sentence was confusing. now with the RPM you're talking about flow through the engine and not flow from the turbo. obvisouly, higher rpm's will flow more. but if the turbo is at max boost at 3500 rpm in your example, it is flowing as much as it can no matter what the engine is doing, however this does not mean it's an obstruction. that's all. and xakep, everyone has a 600hp turbo ricer...did your stickers give you 100?

XakEp

There isnt a single sticker on the car. The car idles like stock and the FMIC is painted black. Last turbo on the list



Mine is the one in the middle with the T04S cover.

I dont think stickers have anything to do with my power output.

MR2liter

iTrader: (11)

The results are on page 2 or 3 i belive.
XakEp : sounds like a nice solid setup. Whats the platform. Is it in a eclipse or a galant?

waiting2bl33d

4G64 is a SOHC 2.4 out of 97-99 eclipse syders unless he said he put the 4G64 crank into a 4g63 or making his 2.0 a 2.3 stroker and just in case this wasn't coverd a GT45R turbo on a 2.0 motor (4g63) spooled right around 4,300 and hit 22psi at around 4,800 spooled late but wow when it did...it was amazing i beileve the GT turbos are above the .60 trim which is a massive trim size for a 4 cly. just my .02

slick1851

3SGTEs can make as much power as a Sr20 or a 4G63, they are pretty badass motors. And MR2s are good for drag who ever is saying that are not, dont take those cars lightly at all. A GT40R is a very big turbo and puts out big numbers. Dont think this car is slow, I have a freind with a fully built Mr2 motor. He has carrilo rods,weiscos, ported head, cams etc....Its going to be a monster when its done.

slick1851

2.4 blocks come from a few differnt cars, there are various combos to run a stroker.


Long rod, short rod, GCS block wich is a 4g63 with a bigger bore.

ws6hardazz

Was that the blue one that I beat with my stock WS6........

shizon

iTrader: (1)

Wow...lol

Bottom line is you can only burn as much o2 as what's in there. You get o2 in there by forced induction or injection (ala nitrous). With forced induction as we are talking here, the most important characteristic is flow (mass not volume) since no matter where we are on earth, o2 ratio in air is the same. The more amount (pounds) of air you push into the engine over a given amount of time (min), the more 02 you have to burn (lbs/min). Of course, all that comes at the understanding that your not introducing enough temp to induce knock. This is why compressor maps are so important and why hitting the most efficient island is key to choosing the right turbo.

And yes, if your engine can pump (flow) more than your turbo can (taking into account VE with fuel), your turbo is a restriction, bottom line. If your turbo is just inefficient (not the most ideal island on the compressor map), it may not be a restriction of flow, but a restriction of max power due to temp, but this would imply that all other variables are not coming into play (fuel/spark) in reducing power. So to that point, as long as you are not getting knock retard (very unlikely in real world scenario, speaking theoretically), can't run anymore timing, and your fuel can keep up with your commanded/ideal afr, all's well with an undersized turbo.

XakEp

1995 Tsi AWD Talon. I'm looking forward to hitting the track once things thaw out here in Denver.

That motor isnt a stroker - its a true 4g64 block with 4g64 crank. My block came out of a 1995 Galant ES, and if you plug up a few oil return holes in the block and get adjustable cam gears your can put the DOHC head on it in place of the SOHC head. A stroker would be a 4g64 crank in a 4g63 block. Either way, I get enough torque off boost to get around with having to worry about doing AWD donuts.

Sparetire

PMed you

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

you never asked if it had to be, doesnt mean anything most guys that have fast cars that street race usually bring em in trailers they race then put it back in and leave.........no one builds a 700hp+ car to be able to go get groceries.

XakEp

I did. I dont think I'll be able to squeeze out 700HP out of my current turbo, but my wife uses the Talon with 104 in the tank to go get groceries. Then again I'm just wierd.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

yea you are weird.............but the purpose of any high horsepower car is to haul asssss only thing is the more power you put in the less streetability you get i guess you got your cake and ate it too

BigBronco

iTrader: (2)

jesus i have missed out a lot in here.

2000GTP

iTrader: (3)

Just curious, what will a stock MR2 usually run in the quarter?