Me vs GT35R S2000 and Turbo M3 *video*
06-21-2007, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by diambo4life
That is an asinine argument. Of course TQ plays a part. You want it to stay flat or drop gradually with RPM. If your TQ falls like a brick, so will the HP with increase in RPM.
06-21-2007, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BLACKTURBOS2K
At some point most cars will start to fall off at high RPMs, thats when you shift. My point is, after 5500 rpms TQ has little effect. As for the s2k tq is flat all they way to redline,9300 rpms. That is how it is for my car, I can not speak for all turbo s2ks
06-21-2007, 04:08 PM
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1) Anything that gets cooler air to the compressor side is probably going to help performance by allowing more efficiency and just plain more air to get processed.
2) HP is TQ at high RPMs. If you have two cars making the same peak TQ, but one makes it at 3000RPM and the other makes it at 6000RPM, the 6000RPM car will have tons more HP. This is mathematical fact.
The 6000RPM car will also be able to use gearing more effectively, being that it will reach higher speeds at any given gear ratio before having to shift. In effect, while the 3000RPM car is into its 4th gear and loosing leverage and TQ to the wheels, the 6000RPM car is still sitting in its lower gears, putting down more TQ. Guess which is faster.
Its a really common mis-conception that a 300WHP car puts down 300WHP in 1st gear, then 2nd, then 3rd, and so on. The reason a stock LS1 pulls harder in 1st than a Viper pulls in 5th is that the stock LS1 is having its TQ multiplied much more by the 1st gear and 3.42 rear gear (or even 2.73) than the Viper's TQ is multiplied by its cruiser 5th gear and 3.08 rear. If a stock powered LS1 made 300WTQ from 4000RPM to 20000RPM it would have tons of HP and rape a 500WTQ Viper in a drag race. It would simply run the entire race in 1st. After about 100 feet the Viper would not see which way the Camaro went. Crazy example but you get the idea.
Basicly HP matters becuase TQ and gearing matter just as much. They are all related and inextricable. A supposedly 'torquier' car with a crap powerband will find itself putting down less TQ to the wheels at any speed over 30MPH by a nice small block that makes power up top. And a car with only a couple grand of good RPM up top will get beat by a higher TQ car that can spend decent time in each gear as opposed to haveing to shift constantly to keep the power on. Its the same prinicpal I just outlined in reverse.
End of discussion IMHO.
2) HP is TQ at high RPMs. If you have two cars making the same peak TQ, but one makes it at 3000RPM and the other makes it at 6000RPM, the 6000RPM car will have tons more HP. This is mathematical fact.
The 6000RPM car will also be able to use gearing more effectively, being that it will reach higher speeds at any given gear ratio before having to shift. In effect, while the 3000RPM car is into its 4th gear and loosing leverage and TQ to the wheels, the 6000RPM car is still sitting in its lower gears, putting down more TQ. Guess which is faster.
Its a really common mis-conception that a 300WHP car puts down 300WHP in 1st gear, then 2nd, then 3rd, and so on. The reason a stock LS1 pulls harder in 1st than a Viper pulls in 5th is that the stock LS1 is having its TQ multiplied much more by the 1st gear and 3.42 rear gear (or even 2.73) than the Viper's TQ is multiplied by its cruiser 5th gear and 3.08 rear. If a stock powered LS1 made 300WTQ from 4000RPM to 20000RPM it would have tons of HP and rape a 500WTQ Viper in a drag race. It would simply run the entire race in 1st. After about 100 feet the Viper would not see which way the Camaro went. Crazy example but you get the idea.
Basicly HP matters becuase TQ and gearing matter just as much. They are all related and inextricable. A supposedly 'torquier' car with a crap powerband will find itself putting down less TQ to the wheels at any speed over 30MPH by a nice small block that makes power up top. And a car with only a couple grand of good RPM up top will get beat by a higher TQ car that can spend decent time in each gear as opposed to haveing to shift constantly to keep the power on. Its the same prinicpal I just outlined in reverse.
End of discussion IMHO.
06-22-2007, 01:50 AM
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Once again discussion about TQ and HP. We all know that TQ is very important, but when you have a high reving engine with some lack or TQ in a car that weighs 2700lbs, TQ doesn't play that big of a role anymore. Torque is needed to move off the line, but at higher speed HP and relatively small weight of the the car will make for the lack of torque.
06-25-2007, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OdessitPashka
Once again discussion about TQ and HP. We all know that TQ is very important, but when you have a high reving engine with some lack or TQ in a car that weighs 2700lbs, TQ doesn't play that big of a role anymore. Torque is needed to move off the line, but at higher speed HP and relatively small weight of the the car will make for the lack of torque.
06-25-2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisUlrich
I always used to think that... until I realized that the 4 bangers making 1200whp are running high 7s or at best a low 6 while most 1200whp drag V8s are running mid 6s. I mean drag cars... not street strip. That's where I see the biggest difference where torque comes into play. Those drag cars are spinning to 7500rpms or so and rarely see under 5250 but it's their torque that wins the race.
06-26-2007, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisUlrich
I always used to think that... until I realized that the 4 bangers making 1200whp are running high 7s or at best a low 6 while most 1200whp drag V8s are running mid 6s. I mean drag cars... not street strip. That's where I see the biggest difference where torque comes into play. Those drag cars are spinning to 7500rpms or so and rarely see under 5250 but it's their torque that wins the race.
06-26-2007, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
Could that difference possibly be a FWD vs. RWD issue?
At that level of racing I would think rwd would help alot. No matter how big the tire is on a fwd car its still on the front
06-26-2007, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DanielZ06
Anyways, here you go. My MAF is dirty/clogged and the car kept breaking up and sputtering through all the runs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmH9zzF_yDQ
Here she is in all her glory.
Your car and mine would match up beautifully. My FRC made 490 rhwp 445 rwtq using Louis Gigliotti's Experimental cam, to be released in the near future. You got 480+ rwhp 429 rwtq and Its a ZO6 with RON's Vindicator cam. I'd love to line up and run you sometime. Too bad you are in Georgia. I'd love to run through the tunnel with my LG Pro longtube headers and no muffler Bullit exhaust from Billy Boat. Scary you and me lining up with almost 1000 rwhp and nearly 900 rwtq between us. People would hear us coming from a couple miles away at WOT.
BTW good runs, and your car is looking good with those wheels you have.
06-26-2007, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DanielZ06
Thank you! I've seen your posts around. Your car is definitely stout and the torque numbers are crazy!
Thanks man, I looked at your setup again. Very similar. How do you like the KOOKS longtube headers ???
06-26-2007, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hurley_21_07
Drilled holes in headlight so that air can get to his turbo....even though turbos are driven by the exhaust....
Dan
Dan
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisUlrich
I always used to think that... until I realized that the 4 bangers making 1200whp are running high 7s or at best a low 6 while most 1200whp drag V8s are running mid 6s. I mean drag cars... not street strip. That's where I see the biggest difference where torque comes into play. Those drag cars are spinning to 7500rpms or so and rarely see under 5250 but it's their torque that wins the race.
Traction and gearing matter big time. You put a 1200WHP 4G63 in a dedicated ladder bar 2000 LB drag car with huge rear slicks and all and it will likley put out similar numbers to whatever else was in there with 1200WHP. IIRC the dedicated dragster Brent Rau is running makes around 1200WHP and runs 6s. Its also about as similar to a DSM as a NASCAR ride is to a stock Ford Fusion
In a street car type setup TQ is generally very important because a street car usualy wont be living above 6K all the time. And even if it does, its going to be very very hard to get traction on the street with the kind of techniques needed to keep the revs up there. Not to mention the maitenance.
TQ is useful and important for a street car, and it can be useful in a race car for sure. Road racers will always need decent TQ unless they are runnign F1 type cars that dont go below 10K RPM. Mostly because they will be runnign around in the mid-range of their power out of alot of corners.
Basicly, it as much in the chassis as it is in the engine.
06-26-2007, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sparetire
Theres a stalled auto DSM on one of the forums I visit. I made 425WHP on a conservative tune and ran 4 consecutive times between 9.7X and 9.9X.
Traction and gearing matter big time. You put a 1200WHP 4G63 in a dedicated ladder bar 2000 LB drag car with huge rear slicks and all and it will likley put out similar numbers to whatever else was in there with 1200WHP. IIRC the dedicated dragster Brent Rau is running makes around 1200WHP and runs 6s. Its also about as similar to a DSM as a NASCAR ride is to a stock Ford Fusion
In a street car type setup TQ is generally very important because a street car usualy wont be living above 6K all the time. And even if it does, its going to be very very hard to get traction on the street with the kind of techniques needed to keep the revs up there. Not to mention the maitenance.
TQ is useful and important for a street car, and it can be useful in a race car for sure. Road racers will always need decent TQ unless they are runnign F1 type cars that dont go below 10K RPM. Mostly because they will be runnign around in the mid-range of their power out of alot of corners.
Basicly, it as much in the chassis as it is in the engine.
Traction and gearing matter big time. You put a 1200WHP 4G63 in a dedicated ladder bar 2000 LB drag car with huge rear slicks and all and it will likley put out similar numbers to whatever else was in there with 1200WHP. IIRC the dedicated dragster Brent Rau is running makes around 1200WHP and runs 6s. Its also about as similar to a DSM as a NASCAR ride is to a stock Ford Fusion
In a street car type setup TQ is generally very important because a street car usualy wont be living above 6K all the time. And even if it does, its going to be very very hard to get traction on the street with the kind of techniques needed to keep the revs up there. Not to mention the maitenance.
TQ is useful and important for a street car, and it can be useful in a race car for sure. Road racers will always need decent TQ unless they are runnign F1 type cars that dont go below 10K RPM. Mostly because they will be runnign around in the mid-range of their power out of alot of corners.
Basicly, it as much in the chassis as it is in the engine.
So yea the FWD vs RWD definitely a huge factor. But the fact that the 4 banger physically can't go tat for tat with an 8 cylinder is also quite a huge factor.
Also... a couple friends of mine have all out drag cars. 9.8 @ 132 and 8.2 @ 151. Chassis plays a huge part yes. But the first car makes like 600hp at crank and weighed 3k with driver. Second car made 950 crank hp and weighed 2600lbs with driver.
That's all launch baby
Last edited by ChrisUlrich; 06-26-2007 at 06:48 PM.
06-28-2007, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisUlrich
That's actually the car I was in reference too. Brent Rau makes between 1400-1550 from what I understand.
So yea the FWD vs RWD definitely a huge factor. But the fact that the 4 banger physically can't go tat for tat with an 8 cylinder is also quite a huge factor.
Also... a couple friends of mine have all out drag cars. 9.8 @ 132 and 8.2 @ 151. Chassis plays a huge part yes. But the first car makes like 600hp at crank and weighed 3k with driver. Second car made 950 crank hp and weighed 2600lbs with driver.
That's all launch baby
So yea the FWD vs RWD definitely a huge factor. But the fact that the 4 banger physically can't go tat for tat with an 8 cylinder is also quite a huge factor.
Also... a couple friends of mine have all out drag cars. 9.8 @ 132 and 8.2 @ 151. Chassis plays a huge part yes. But the first car makes like 600hp at crank and weighed 3k with driver. Second car made 950 crank hp and weighed 2600lbs with driver.
That's all launch baby