Ok, I don't get it, why doesn't Sam also race 5th Gen Camaros?

 

because he's been developing parts for the Mustang for a couple years now and thus racing the Mustangs. PFADT race engineering has been developing parts for the 5th gens and that would be a whole new level of BMR type competition + more R&D costs incurred; especially since the PFADT guys are also racers and actually test/develop parts (like Sam) where BMR let's it's customers do the real testing. Simple business decision, the fbody's went out of production thus it was time to expand. I don't know a lot about autocross, but the new camaro i don't think is in the same class he's been in, and it's probably not competitive where it is (remember, it's heavy!!). Plus that means he would then have to buy a new car: $$

I think the real question is: Why isn't Sam road racing??!

 

Most of your statement is correct but BMR does all of it's own testing in house well before the parts are even released to racers for testing.....

By the way congrats Sam on the win

 

One very big reason is that Sam does this to win and the 5th gen just can't get it done. Harsh reality for the 5th gen fan boy posse, but it's true.

And before you go spouting your knowledge all over the place again in an effort to poke holes in my assertion, I've been in a 5th gen at an autocross (in fact as recently as ummm... yesterday).

Nope, they're still in the same classes. You're right though, they are uncompetitive there at least in part because of how heavy they are (there are other reasons as well).

And Sammy did buy a new car very recently. Take a look at the results.

 

Yep, I know you guys stress test your products (it's almost a requirement these days). My reference to testing products prior to release comes from Sam and PFADT designing the component in some fashion and testing it on their own car and proving it works right the way they intended.

If you guys do that too, then my mistake; I was not aware of that. I thought you were just a manufacturer.

 

He was in a GT500 right? I thought that was odd when I saw that because I thought he had the GT/CH or whatever it was called?

 

No. He and his co-driver have been driving his co-driver's 2007(?) Shelby GT for several years now. This is the "lesser" Shelby Mustang, NOT the GT500.

A few months back, Sam bought a new 2011 GT and they have been competing in it since at least early July.

As far as I know, that is the car they took to Lincoln last week. At least that's the car they registered with since it is the one listed in the results.

 

Yeah, the 5th gen Camaro just seems too heavy, considering that you'd have to at least compete against the 4th gen LS1 weight, I bet the 5th gen wouldn't have much of a chance. Probably a similar deal with the GTO and G8

 

Except that I have seen old Strano posts where he was not happy that a new Camaro was not yet available, and now it is -- so does he not like the new ones compared to the 2011 Mustang for competition?

 

Yes, he was disappointed it took so long to get the new one out, i imagine he like everyone else thought it was coming much sooner...then when it did: curb weight 3,860 + driver. And as me and others have said here, it's not competitive. Why would anyone want to get into a car to compete if the car's not competitive?

 

Ohhh, gotcha. Ya guess I missed all that thanks

 

Ok, if weight is the only factor holding it back, how much of that 3860 lbs SS curb weight needs to go on a diet to be competitive?

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro/features-specs/

 

*sigh* At least you're consistent with your refusal to pay attention....

Some of those reasons other than weight include:

With regard to things that can't be addressed in F Stock....

1) Ridiculous wheel diameter means there are few (if any) options for race rubber.

2) Smaller front wheels / larger rear wheels means that there is practically no way the car can be tweaked to be as neutral as the Mustang.


With regard to things that can't be addressed in either E Street Prepared or F Stock....

1) I don't know about anyone else, but I would never be able to see out of the damn thing well enough to place the car close to cones as speed. Maybe others could, I dunno. I thought the forward vision out of a 4th gen was bad until I got into a 5th gen....

2) In addition to being heavy, the damn thing is just big overall. Longer length, longer wheelbase, greater overall width, greater track width.

3) The greater track width isn't neccesarily a killer but when your main competition starts with a narrower dimension and you both have strut front ends and you both will probably be on the same size tires.... it should be no surprise that your car will probably end up being wider. Wider is not better through the cones.

4) The Mustang has options for rear gearing. The Camaro has none.

 

Paying attention to what, can you be any more vague?

F Stock? This is not an F Car, it's Zeta. It's not even that the 2010-2011 Camaro fits in F-Stock from the SCCA Nat'l Solo rules:
http://scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules...solo_rules.pdf

Wheels are easily replaced, and you can match front and rear wheels sizes. Does F-Stock really prevent you from matching front and rear wheel sizes? That would be absurd.

Are there restrictions on changing gears out with aftermarket ones? You must mean options from the factory for Mustang rear gearing.

I am a bit new to SCCA restrictions...

 

Okay, I'll be more direct. Pay attention to what you ask?

The responses to your f'n question. You know, in the post you quoted above.

Really? Not an F car? Wow, I guess the SCCA will have to rename the national class they created specifically for two GM cars (although I believe the new car also has an "F" in the VIN). How did all those other non GM, non F cars get in there anyway?

And thanks for the link. I've not seen the rulebook before. I've just been throwing parts at my car and randomly driving around large paved areas throughout the midwest until now. It'll be good to have some sort of guide going forward....

Read the damn link you stumbled across.

Stock classes begin with Super Stock and end with H Stock. These are roughly ordered from fastest to slowest. The GM pony cars happen to wind up in F Stock. As does the Mustang and quite a few others. The F designation is purely coincidental.

NOC = Not Otherwise Classified. This means if you don't see a specific listing for a specific V8 Camaro, it goes here. In this case, "here" happens to be F Stock. I'm sure this will be made more clear and specific for you in future rulebook revisions.

Easily replaced? Really? Wow, thanks for the info.

Absurd? Why? Is the term F "Stock" really not enough of a hint? In this case it is not actually a descriptor but a classification level. That level would be fairly close to, you guessed it, stock. Want to change wheel dimensions? No problem, there is a class for that. It is called E Street Prepared.

F Stock does not prevent you from changing wheels. It does, however, prevent you from changing wheel dimensions from the factory equipment (there's that pesky "stock" thing again). A small allowance in offset is provided to facilitate the use of aftermarket wheels.

In short....want matching wheel sizes? No problem, F Stock allows that. You just have to buy a car thusly equipped from the factory.

Yes, there are. Again, it would help if you actually read something, anything from the link you so thoughtfully provided.

I have no problem answering someone's rule related questions without the snarkiness. However, when they have a link to the rulebook, don't read it, and are then rather mouthy and smartassed... well I don't have a lot of patience. Or maybe it's just your past behavior.

You don't say....

 

Well put IH

and so it's clear: yes, SCCA really is that absurd in some of their rule making and car classifying (Ferrari 430C in T-1..really?)...however changing rear gears in a STOCK class, aint that absurd..

 

Wow, do you need to be rude to communicate because you have no other way?! I read the thread.


If you choose either the front size or rear size wheel for BOTH front and back, how is that not allowed -- both dimensions are offered stock from the factory, just configured differently. If that is a disqualifier, that is pretty petty, IMHO. About as bad as that rule used against the Lion who lost his TD against the Bears last Sunday.

I did see the NOC -- but didn't see the definition of it, so thanks.

I am not going to read the whole rule book, because I have better things to do and am not competing in SCCA -- those more familiar can help fill in the few points. If you cannot have a conversation without getting rude, maybe you should just sit out the conversation.

 

But it IS absurd, if GM offered 20 different rear gear sets for the 5th Gen from the factory, then you could basically pick any one -- not much different from aftermarket is it.

All depends from what vantage point you look at it.

 

Oh, but it is! It is stock if it comes from the factory as so, it's stock. If you must do aftermarket modifications, it's not stock. Not really absurd, just the way it is.

 

Exactly.

Here is an alternate vantage point. It is a rule book. It applies equally to ALL cars. You follow it and play along or you don't. Simple. Do you honestly think everyone who autocrosses agrees completely with every rule in the book?

In your life, do you choose to follow only the rules and laws you deem appropriate? No you don't. You likely follow most if not all rules and laws, including the ones you don't agree with. Otherwise you'd probably be locked up for being a sociopath. Don't like what the rulebook has to say with regard to your car? Want to win? Buy a different car or petition to have the rules changed.

The rulebook changes every year. A lot of those changes are based on membership feedback. Don't like something in the rulebook? Write a letter, garner membership support, get them to write letters supporting your proposal, and then maybe you just might get what you want.

It is not the SCCA's job to ensure that every vehicle can win a trophy. This is a competition, not some limp wristed grade school exercise where everyone gets a gold star for participation. There are winners and losers. The F cars did very, very well for a long time. Are you suggesting that the rules should have been changed to benefit the Mustang? IMO, GM has dropped the ball with the new car while Ford stepped up and brought a winner to the game. The results would seem to back my assertion.

Lastly, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Given your previous exchanges here, I did not realize you were so sensitive. You have my apology. In the future I shall do my best to refrain from being such a big meanie head.