lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

All Crossed Up

2001 Chevrolet Camaro Shock & Brake Upgrade - Street Car, Track Car: Part I

2001 Chevrolet Camaro Shock & Brake Upgrade - Street Car, Track Car: Part II

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

Those are good reads. So after taking notes from the articles, I have a questions, LOL.

I got that the 1LE bushing is a upgrade, I read through some threads after searching & some people consider the Moog replacement bushing comparable to the 1LE bushings, is this true? Now also from my reading I see the 1LE is stiffer than OEM rubber, yet not as stiff as poly bushings. So the bushing still gives instead of trying to twist the LCA correct? This would mean a stock LCA is plenty strong with a good rubber bushing, possibly even more so with a simple 1/8" piece of plate welded in to box in the stock LCA. If this is true, would a boxed stock LCA with new Moog replacement bushing be just as good as a boxed aftermarket LCA but with a bushing that will give instead of try to bind like a poly ended one would? Hence leaving you "some" articulation in the LCA's.

If this is true & a person has the means to do so, I really dont see a reason to buy aftermarket unless your getting really serious & need alot of adjustability/rod ended parts. But a great option for a daily driver that might take a couple laps around a road course at some point.

Also Sam, do you consider the Moog bushings to be on par with the 1LE bushings? So if someone was to rebuild a stock front upper/lower a-arm set with the Moog replacements would it be a great improvement over stock soft rubber yet still alot more forgiving than the Energy Suspension poly kit?

I noticed the poly is recommended though for the end links & front/rear sway bar mounts.

I'm seeing some ways for a guy on a budget with the right tools to have a pretty damn nice street suspension for alot less than buying all new aftermarket parts. And I'm all about that.

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

morning bump, any input?

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

There aren't any boxed aftermarket LCA's that will allow you to run Moog bushings. The closest would be the BMR LCA's with rubber ordered in them. That's a cost option, and you want a nice street suspension. Why do you want to box them? If you want to keep costs down, and your bushings are dry rotted, worn, creating lots of play, and therefore really in need of replacment, then just replace them with new rubber, right?

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

Thats what I intend to do, new Moog bushings/ball joints up front & new Moog bushings out back. I was just wondering though if boxing in my stock LCA's (I can get it done free by one of our fab shops) and adding new Moog bushings would basically be equal to buying a set of boxed aftermarket with rubber bushings. The boxing of the stock LCA would just be to help deter any twisting that could occur & let the rubber bushing be the give point.

Am I on the right line of thinking finally? I was also wondering after my reading if the Moog bushing is comparable to the 1LE bushing as I know thats supposed to be a better route to go over what was stock in most our cars. I'm not even considering poly except for the end links & sway bar mounts.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

The benefit of boxing the arms, especially for a street car, is more than questionable. From what I can recall the 1LE bushings and the Moogs are comparable. The difference between them and the regular bushing is the former lacks the flutes of the latter (which adds compliance).

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

Ok, I'm interested now, LOL. Why would you say boxing the stock arms is "more than questionable"? I'm having a hard time seeing how it would be any different/less effective than a aftermarket boxed version, except you'd get the benefit of the rubber bushings without having to special order them without poly.

Do you mean for most its simply not worth the time, effort or money on materials? Cause if thats the reason those arent issues for me, I'll only be out the money for the Moog bushings. I have materials in our shop at work & one of the shops that build our pressure vessels would weld these up real quick for free if I asked. So I myself wouldnt be out any more money or time than replacing the bushings myself.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

Let me put it to you this way. In order to provide the best ride, and handling, you need articulation, correct? What articulation is happening in roll (at the LCA, the torgue arm, and the axle itself)? If more compliance to permit this motion is good, why would less be better? In which direction are loads placed on the LCA's? What are you achieving by boxing the arms?

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

Hmm, see I was lookin at it like it would force the articulation to be contained in the bushing only & with it being rubber instead of poly it would allow enough movement to reinforce the LCA's & not worry about bind.

I'm not tryin to argue anything, I'm genuinely interested. I'm changing direction on my car & giving up on drag racing, I dont have the ability to fund keeping up with everyone in a straight line. So now I just want a good riding suspension that I could make a couple spirited laps at a road course with as well as make it more enjoyable daily since I drive 300+ miles a week, but without goin extreme & dropping the money for a full out autox build with Koni's & high end suspension pieces.

So that being said if there is places to improve the stock components & come out cheaper & with the end result I'm looking for I'll explore those routes. I do plan on Bilstein shocks/Strano springs when I get my stock front upper/lower a-arms rebuilt as well as my LCA's. I know I'll need a aftermarket panhard to help center the rear. And I'll most likely end up buying a set of Strano's hollow sway bars as well.

Thats kinda why I was asking Sam about the comments on not absolutely always needing to use the LCA relocation brackets after lowering. As I had always read this was a must. What I am discovering is the learnin curve for suspension tech is steeper than engine rebuilding, LOL.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

I'm not arguing with you, and I don't want you to take it that way. Just think about movement of the various components. Study some diagrams of three links, torque arms, and four link suspensions. You'll start to understand how things are working. You might even look at some videos of actual models in motion.

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

And the search begins, LOL. I'd still like Sam to chime in on the things we have been discussing if he has some time.

I didnt think you were arguing with me on it, I thought maybe I was comming across like I was tryin to prove I was right but that wasnt the case at all, I just have LOTS of question, LOL.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I wish I had the time to get into fine details online, but I really don't. What's more is details aren't well discussed in type. 1LE bushings are just solid rubber for the LCA's and so are the Moogs. I think TRW's are as well. But that's not the case for the front arms.

Boxing a stock arm vs. running a boxed or tubular one does the same thing takes flex from the arm meaning all articulation is not down to the bushings which isn't ideal unless you have a rod-end or roto-joint type end to allow the articulation.

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

I see, so even though the rubber bushing gives flex over the poly its still kinda a no-no to limit the articulation all to the bushing itself, gotcha. So no boxing of the stock arm, just new Moog bushings & a coat of paint to resist any more rust.

On to the front arms, you mention the bushings arent the same. So the Moog replacements for the front are not solid rubber then?

For my particular situation Sam, if I'm plannin on sitting on your springs w/Bilstein shocks, would you suggest your offset bushings or just the regular Moog bushing replacements up front? I'm still tryin to learn about the camber & all as well.

I'm doin some reading right now over on SCCA forums

BlueBird346

iTrader: (13)

This, word for word. Ive been lurking in this thread because I just installed my SLP Bilstein/Strano combo. I love it! Im wanting to do Strano sways and Roto-joint LCA's now.

Cant wait to get in to some auto-x and a few track days, Im losing interest in drag racing.

ncfastls1

iTrader: (1)

I'm with you man. As much as I'd love to get a cam and heads and keep building the motor, it's just too expensive right now with my budget. I've wanted to autocross but I don't even want to try it with my current suspension. There would just be no point. The car really feels horrible around corners, the Bilsteins helped it out though compared to stock. Just going to build up my suspension right now.