Stoptech vs Movit pros and cons??
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Stoptech vs Movit pros and cons?? been reading alot on brake kits and wanting to do this right the first time obviously the movit setup is more how do they compare performance wise, cost/availability of pads/rotors etc.
with the movit rotors do you have to redrill for the GM bolt pattern?
my other option is the ctsv setup which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper then the other two but not sure it will hold up to the abuse of multiple track days...
are there rotors for either kit that aren't drilled/slotted?
thanks
chad
with the movit rotors do you have to redrill for the GM bolt pattern?
my other option is the ctsv setup which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper then the other two but not sure it will hold up to the abuse of multiple track days...
are there rotors for either kit that aren't drilled/slotted?
thanks
chad
if you have the money I have a new set of
Baer 6S big brake kit for 4th gen fbody
these are the same calipers and brakes used
on Trans Am Championship cars and Baer won
many racing series with this set up.
Baer 6S big brake kit for 4th gen fbody
these are the same calipers and brakes used
on Trans Am Championship cars and Baer won
many racing series with this set up.
The Baer 6S kits would honestly be wasted money. Bigger is not always better. They are good brakes, but there is no way that a street car, no matter how insanely well setup it is, would perform as well, have as much downforce and grip as a Trans-Am car. Ive driven well setup cars with the 6S setup, both on the track and off, and I honestly cant tell a difference between those brakes and my Wilwood SL4R's with the same pads. It all comes down to the CF of the tires in the end anyways... Repeatability and stiffness is what you want in a brake setup, and believe it or not, the the Stoptechs and the Wilwood SL_R calipers are likely stiffer and will offer the same repeatability as the Baer's.
Between the two kits mentioned, I would go with the Stoptech kit over the Movit setup. The Porsche calipers are very VERY heavy, and while the calipers are good, they arent the best design out there. The Stoptechs will be a stiffer caliper than the Porsche calipers and even the Baer's that were mentioned.
Stay away from mono-block calipers, contrary to popular belief, they are actually not as stiff as a 2 piece caliper design.
You may also want to look into Wilwoods. They offer the SL4R and SL6R kits, both offer extremely good performance, comparable to both the kits you mentioned and are probably going to be less money. The Wilwood kits are only 2lbs heavier per side than the Stoptech kit, and still probably a good 6-8lbs of weight savings over the Movit kit.
Between the two kits mentioned, I would go with the Stoptech kit over the Movit setup. The Porsche calipers are very VERY heavy, and while the calipers are good, they arent the best design out there. The Stoptechs will be a stiffer caliper than the Porsche calipers and even the Baer's that were mentioned.
Stay away from mono-block calipers, contrary to popular belief, they are actually not as stiff as a 2 piece caliper design.
You may also want to look into Wilwoods. They offer the SL4R and SL6R kits, both offer extremely good performance, comparable to both the kits you mentioned and are probably going to be less money. The Wilwood kits are only 2lbs heavier per side than the Stoptech kit, and still probably a good 6-8lbs of weight savings over the Movit kit.
Last edited by SVThuh; Mar 25, 2011 at 12:38 AM.
Is that the crap bs story wilwood sells you?
Brembo
Alcon
Porsche, MB, on and on,
all their top of line cars
are running one piece billet.
Do you even know how heavy a two piece caliper is over a similiar billet one.
Also do you even know about the pad surface area to rotor ratio on a 6S? It uses one of the largest pad and are used from 14" to 15" rotors.
The Wilwood calipers at best can only handle up to a 13" rotor. The Wilwood calipers has a very small pad to rotor area.
And I don't care what you say, but a 13" rotor is not the epitome of a performance big brake kit.
Maybe it was back in the 80's when 17" tires was the **** but not anymore.
the best performing calipers are monoblocks
not only is it lighter but it stronger
Brembo
Alcon
Porsche, MB, on and on,
all their top of line cars
are running one piece billet.
Do you even know how heavy a two piece caliper is over a similiar billet one.
Also do you even know about the pad surface area to rotor ratio on a 6S? It uses one of the largest pad and are used from 14" to 15" rotors.
The Wilwood calipers at best can only handle up to a 13" rotor. The Wilwood calipers has a very small pad to rotor area.
And I don't care what you say, but a 13" rotor is not the epitome of a performance big brake kit.
Maybe it was back in the 80's when 17" tires was the **** but not anymore.
the best performing calipers are monoblocks
not only is it lighter but it stronger
The only way to make a monoblock caliper as stiff as a 2 piece caliper that is bolted together with steel cross bolts is to use exotic materials that cost an extra-ordinate amount of money. Unless your building a caliper out of unobtanium, then a 2 piece caliper will always be stiffer than a 1 piece aluminum caliper. As heat builds up, aluminum loses strength and stiffness, whereas when the steel cross bolts heat up in a 2 piece caliper, the steel actually gains strength and stiffness, until it gets to a temperature that will actually allow it to lose its temper.
Wilwood didn't tell me anything besides their calipers piston area and pad area on the kit that I have.
If you want to educate yourself on the pros and cons of a monoblock vs. 2 piece, try reading Stoptechs white papers. In fact, Ill even help you out.. Try starting here: http://stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
In fact Ill even help you out by copying some of the information here that pertains to our conversation here:
Also, try reading up here as well.. Bigger brakes are not always better.. While the biggest 6 pot brake kit you can fit under your wheels might look cool, its not always the best option. I would rather have a system that is balanced and controllable than just having the "biggest caliper with the largest pad area blah..blah..blah.." Having too much brake up front can cause serious issues when your braking for a 40mph turn when your coming off a 140mph straight.
Read here and then you can come back and make an informed decision.
http://stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
ETA: AP doesn't really use monoblock calipers that frequently.. In fact most of their calipers are a 2 piece forged caliper, only their über expensive calipers are monoblocks. Hell, Brembo even makes a lot of 2 piece calipers as well... Just because its more expensive, does not make it better.. there is a lot of marketing hype about monoblock calipers.. But that does not make them better.. Granted they are lighter, but they will flex more than a 2 piece caliper fastened together with high quality steel bridge bolts that will almost always lead to higher clamp loads and a firmer pedal with more control overall over the braking system.
Wilwood didn't tell me anything besides their calipers piston area and pad area on the kit that I have.
If you want to educate yourself on the pros and cons of a monoblock vs. 2 piece, try reading Stoptechs white papers. In fact, Ill even help you out.. Try starting here: http://stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
In fact Ill even help you out by copying some of the information here that pertains to our conversation here:
Originally Posted by Stoptech
here is a rub. Brake calipers, especially those attached to hard driven high performance vehicles, do not operate at ambient temperature. Caliper operating temperatures can and do often exceed 300 degrees F on high performance street vehicles. – at which point the Aluminum bridge of the monobloc has lost more than half of its strength while the steel bolts in a two piece unit are unfazed. In fact, steel is essentially unaffected until around 200 degrees F where it begins to gain in strength. Steel gains 25 to 32 percent in strength when it peaks at about 400 degrees F. We are also seeing designs for production like another old Girling design called the four piece caliper (early ‘70's – terrible flexing problems) returning where the bridges are made of steel and incorporated into the mounting bracket instead of Aluminum for just this reason. In this design the pistons are carried in two Aluminum bodies bolted on each side of the bridges. This type, with all four pieces in Aluminum but heavily ribbed for cooling was also the design of the first Porsche Turbo caliper (mid to late ‘70's).
---
It means that aftermarket monoblocs have significantly less strength and stiffness than the current Formula One units – let alone the unobtanium ones of days gone by. It means, if you want to spend a lot more money for a good monobloc racing caliper, if it happens to be available with piston areas that suit your car, you can have a trick monobloc caliper that will almost certainly flex more than an optimum two piece unit and is a few ounces lighter. It also means, if you are able to use a monobloc caliper designed for a production application made either by squeeze or semi-solid forging, cost might be comparable but any claim of them being intrinsically better than a well designed two piece caliper with bolts is simply not true. It is pure marketing hype when a commercially available monbloc caliper, where the manufacturing strategy was aimed at reducing costs to produce a fixed multi piston design, is represented as better than every other design in the aftermarket.
To further make the point, if there were no qualifiers like cost or some sanctioning body rule, the optimum caliper arrangement arguably would be a monobloc design but with steel bridge bolts installed and a re-enforced window. Me? I'd rather use the best designed two piece units, made from squeeze or semi-solid forgings correctly sized for my application, have the firmest brake pedal that I can get and spend the extra money on something to make my car handle better – like shocks.
---
It means that aftermarket monoblocs have significantly less strength and stiffness than the current Formula One units – let alone the unobtanium ones of days gone by. It means, if you want to spend a lot more money for a good monobloc racing caliper, if it happens to be available with piston areas that suit your car, you can have a trick monobloc caliper that will almost certainly flex more than an optimum two piece unit and is a few ounces lighter. It also means, if you are able to use a monobloc caliper designed for a production application made either by squeeze or semi-solid forging, cost might be comparable but any claim of them being intrinsically better than a well designed two piece caliper with bolts is simply not true. It is pure marketing hype when a commercially available monbloc caliper, where the manufacturing strategy was aimed at reducing costs to produce a fixed multi piston design, is represented as better than every other design in the aftermarket.
To further make the point, if there were no qualifiers like cost or some sanctioning body rule, the optimum caliper arrangement arguably would be a monobloc design but with steel bridge bolts installed and a re-enforced window. Me? I'd rather use the best designed two piece units, made from squeeze or semi-solid forgings correctly sized for my application, have the firmest brake pedal that I can get and spend the extra money on something to make my car handle better – like shocks.
Read here and then you can come back and make an informed decision.
http://stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml
ETA: AP doesn't really use monoblock calipers that frequently.. In fact most of their calipers are a 2 piece forged caliper, only their über expensive calipers are monoblocks. Hell, Brembo even makes a lot of 2 piece calipers as well... Just because its more expensive, does not make it better.. there is a lot of marketing hype about monoblock calipers.. But that does not make them better.. Granted they are lighter, but they will flex more than a 2 piece caliper fastened together with high quality steel bridge bolts that will almost always lead to higher clamp loads and a firmer pedal with more control overall over the braking system.
Last edited by SVThuh; Mar 25, 2011 at 05:58 PM.
you are right if you talking about GM girling calipers or the stock calipers on a TA.
those calipers are cheaper material and made out of cast aluminum
just take a look at all the top racing teams
in formula one, gt class and nascar even those guys are are running performance machine one piece billet calipers that cost thousands of dollars.
Porsche which is the best in the world in the brake department don't use two piece calipers.
if the two piece design was better or stronger those teams would run them..........I mean they spare absolutely no expense in extracting every last ounce of performance.
So sorry but there is no substitute for a single billet aluminum that's forged and machined as compared to cast aluminum.
Have you seen how easy and weak the bolt threads are on a piece aluminum? Just rebuild you calipers 2x's and they will be toast.
Also as a matter of fact your wilwoods don't even run dust boots and use very thin stainless or steel pistons that transmit more heat to the brake fluid and pads.
those calipers are cheaper material and made out of cast aluminum
just take a look at all the top racing teams
in formula one, gt class and nascar even those guys are are running performance machine one piece billet calipers that cost thousands of dollars.
Porsche which is the best in the world in the brake department don't use two piece calipers.
if the two piece design was better or stronger those teams would run them..........I mean they spare absolutely no expense in extracting every last ounce of performance.
So sorry but there is no substitute for a single billet aluminum that's forged and machined as compared to cast aluminum.
Have you seen how easy and weak the bolt threads are on a piece aluminum? Just rebuild you calipers 2x's and they will be toast.
Also as a matter of fact your wilwoods don't even run dust boots and use very thin stainless or steel pistons that transmit more heat to the brake fluid and pads.
you are right if you talking about GM girling calipers or the stock calipers on a TA.
those calipers are cheaper material and made out of cast aluminum
just take a look at all the top racing teams
in formula one, gt class and nascar even those guys are are running performance machine one piece billet calipers that cost thousands of dollars.
Porsche which is the best in the world in the brake department don't use two piece calipers.
if the two piece design was better or stronger those teams would run them..........I mean they spare absolutely no expense in extracting every last ounce of performance.
So sorry but there is no substitute for a single billet aluminum that's forged and machined as compared to cast aluminum.
Have you seen how easy and weak the bolt threads are on a piece aluminum? Just rebuild you calipers 2x's and they will be toast.
Also as a matter of fact your wilwoods don't even run dust boots and use very thin stainless or steel pistons that transmit more heat to the brake fluid and pads.
those calipers are cheaper material and made out of cast aluminum
just take a look at all the top racing teams
in formula one, gt class and nascar even those guys are are running performance machine one piece billet calipers that cost thousands of dollars.
Porsche which is the best in the world in the brake department don't use two piece calipers.
if the two piece design was better or stronger those teams would run them..........I mean they spare absolutely no expense in extracting every last ounce of performance.
So sorry but there is no substitute for a single billet aluminum that's forged and machined as compared to cast aluminum.
Have you seen how easy and weak the bolt threads are on a piece aluminum? Just rebuild you calipers 2x's and they will be toast.
Also as a matter of fact your wilwoods don't even run dust boots and use very thin stainless or steel pistons that transmit more heat to the brake fluid and pads.
Formula 1 is required by their rules to run a monoblock caliper made out of aluminum, hence the reason why they can no longer use the super fancy and extremely expensive alloys out there. In fact I do believe that NASCAR and other similar racing classes out there are all required to run one specific type of braking system. It does not mean that it is the best option.
Porsche makes the best brakes eh? Really? Granted, they probably make the best factory stock brakes made by a CAR maker today, but they dont make the best brakes in the world. I would have to say that a lot of the Brembos that are put on a lot of the cars nowadays are probably better..
Granted, F1 teams spare no expense in building their chassis' and setting up their vehicles with the best they are ALLOWED to run. That being said, if they were allowed to run a 2 piece caliper that weighed the same as their monoblocks, they likely would due to the fact that a modern 2 piece FORGED caliper is going to be stiffer than even the monoblocks they used to be able to run that were made out of exotic materials that allowed less flex than aluminum.
The fact of the matter is, Aluminum is a great material for a lot of different uses, including a brake caliper, but it will never be as stiff and rigid as steel will be. The steel bridge bolts that hold a 2 piece caliper together negate just about any flex that would otherwise be allowed by a solid aluminum caliper.
I also dont think you know how a 2 piece caliper is made. It is made in largely the same way that a 1 piece caliper is made, except it is made in 2 pieces and then bolted together.. It is not a cast aluminum piece by any means. Same material as your coveted monoblocks, but held together with a more rigid material.
I know that the Wilwoods dont run dust boots, and to be honest, they arent really all that necessary. The pistons are sealed off with high temperature O-rings that are more efficient than dust boots. Granted the pistons are made out of thinner than ideal stainless, but how much heat actually gets transmitted into the fluid is negligible compared to any other design. I dont have any issues with fluid boiling while running a full tilt race pad on R compounds on a brake intensive track. I run Motul RBF 600 fluid FYI.
Besides, your coveted Baer 6S calipers werent even an option for the OP. He asked about Stoptech's or Movit's.. I told him the Stoptechs were likely a better option due to the fact that they are LIGHTER and STIFFER than the kits the Movit offers. Any of this other BS is just a waste of bandwidth and nothing more than pollution in his thread.
As far as any more so called arguments that you have to support your idea that monoblocks are stiffer, I don't really car. You really haven't supplied any technical data to support your claims, only that "these guys run them, so they must be the best..blah..blah..blah" without reading the rules and regs of those racing bodies. If you want to continue this conversation, start another thread and I will be happy to school you some more. Ill even post empirical technical data to SUPPORT my arguments. Something you have failed to do thus far.
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Your the one that's a waste of bandwidth.
Guy here was interested in a bbk for his car I offered to sell him a Baer 6S kit and save him some money and you opened your big mouth like you were the gospel of brakes.
When in fact your the one who doesn't know anything,
except the bs advertising crap that you found on Stoptechs website about their 2 pc being better than 1 one piece monos from like 20 years ago.
Did you even notice how they kept referring to calipers from like 20 years ago or **** like Girling?
Did they ever even dare to mention Baers or Brembos or Alcons calipers?
Did they do a straight comparison to any of these calipers mentioned above with so called "imperical information" or data to support any of their claims?
Did you even know that there is a steel crosspin bolt on many of the monoblocs?
As for Formula 1 brake caliper rules:
11.2 Brake calipers :
11.2.1 All brake calipers must be made from aluminium materials with a modulus of elasticity no greater than 80Gpa.
11.2.2 No more than two attachments may be used to secure each brake caliper to the car.
11.2.3 No more than one caliper, with a maximum of six pistons, is permitted on each wheel.
11.2.4 The section of each caliper piston must be circular.
They are not bound to use a single piece monobloc caliper by any means.
Movit's kits are Porsche calipers from a 996 which are made by Brembos and are monoblocs. They are stiffer than any stoptech caliper. Porsche used to have 2 piece calipers and they specifically went to a monoblock design because it was lighter and yes because it was stiffer than a 2 piece design.
They also are pretty much the bar for brakes, have been for many many years and continue to be so even today. Yes there are cars that stop better than them but not many and every year they push the envelope on braking performance.
As for me knowing about brakes. I have more money in brake parts than you have into your entire car. And yes spending a lot of money does not make you any better but you do learn some things along the way.
I have built bbk's from 8 piston brembos all the way down to 4 piston wilwoods, custom designed my own 2 pc aluminum hats, designed radial caliper brackets so yeah school me with your 13" wilwood bbk.
Guy here was interested in a bbk for his car I offered to sell him a Baer 6S kit and save him some money and you opened your big mouth like you were the gospel of brakes.
When in fact your the one who doesn't know anything,
except the bs advertising crap that you found on Stoptechs website about their 2 pc being better than 1 one piece monos from like 20 years ago.
Did you even notice how they kept referring to calipers from like 20 years ago or **** like Girling?
Did they ever even dare to mention Baers or Brembos or Alcons calipers?
Did they do a straight comparison to any of these calipers mentioned above with so called "imperical information" or data to support any of their claims?
Did you even know that there is a steel crosspin bolt on many of the monoblocs?
As for Formula 1 brake caliper rules:
11.2 Brake calipers :
11.2.1 All brake calipers must be made from aluminium materials with a modulus of elasticity no greater than 80Gpa.
11.2.2 No more than two attachments may be used to secure each brake caliper to the car.
11.2.3 No more than one caliper, with a maximum of six pistons, is permitted on each wheel.
11.2.4 The section of each caliper piston must be circular.
They are not bound to use a single piece monobloc caliper by any means.
Movit's kits are Porsche calipers from a 996 which are made by Brembos and are monoblocs. They are stiffer than any stoptech caliper. Porsche used to have 2 piece calipers and they specifically went to a monoblock design because it was lighter and yes because it was stiffer than a 2 piece design.
They also are pretty much the bar for brakes, have been for many many years and continue to be so even today. Yes there are cars that stop better than them but not many and every year they push the envelope on braking performance.
As for me knowing about brakes. I have more money in brake parts than you have into your entire car. And yes spending a lot of money does not make you any better but you do learn some things along the way.
I have built bbk's from 8 piston brembos all the way down to 4 piston wilwoods, custom designed my own 2 pc aluminum hats, designed radial caliper brackets so yeah school me with your 13" wilwood bbk.
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As for Formula 1 brake caliper rules:
11.2 Brake calipers :
11.2.1 All brake calipers must be made from aluminium materials with a modulus of elasticity no greater than 80Gpa.
11.2 Brake calipers :
11.2.1 All brake calipers must be made from aluminium materials with a modulus of elasticity no greater than 80Gpa.
Besides, heres more empirical data for you, that you cant seem to wrap your head around. The modulus of elasticity of 304 stainless steel is 200Gpa.. so therefor the 4-6 cross and bridge bolts found in a 2 piece caliper of today would be much stiffer than any sort of aluminum monoblock.
Stoptech spoke of the old style Girling calipers, but they didn't dwell on them. In fact most of that article was written referring to modern caliper design. Most all brake companies out there will agree that a monoblock caliper design will not be as stiff as a good 2 piece caliper. Call AP, call Brembo, call Stoptech. I have spoken to tech reps of these companies at SEMA in person and on the phone, and they were all in agreement.
Bottom line is Aluminum can not ever be as rigid as steel. The two materials are too different. As aluminum is heated up, it looses more rigidity.. and it doesn't really need to get that hot to do so, as low as 200* it will begin to allow flex, its just the nature of the material.. Steel on the other hand will increase in rigidity. I don't know about you, but I do know that most calipers in a decently fast car, on a decent road course will see caliper temperatures well above 200*.
Im not trying to school you with my Wilwood setup. There are better kits out there, this one happened to be a good match for my cars setup. I don't know why you are so hung up on that.. Get over it. If you can prove that aluminum can be stiffer than steel, then I want to know what your smoking.
Last edited by SVThuh; Mar 26, 2011 at 09:37 PM.
Mov'it brakes I believe come ready to go (bolt on)
the one that needs drilling was the Prospeed brakes
which was basically the same components (brakes pirated off of a Porsche 996 TT)
Movit Pros:
1. bigger pad to rotor surface area (Porsche 4 to the Stoptech 4), Stoptech 6 piston caliper is most likely bigger than the Porsche 4 piston pad.
2. rotors should be cheaper to replace, I say should be if you are running a one piece 996 TT rotors, if running a 2 pc it would be an expensive pop.
3. pads for 996 TT are very easy to source and made by all the top pad cos, in all sorts of compounds.
4. with a little bit of knowledge and if you make your own brakets or find a pair of Prospeed brackets you can make a nice bbk for little money.....Porsche people sell those calipers and brakes to upgrade to the new P brakes. To them it's like us selling our LS1 brakes to go for something better.
5. Will take a beating and keep on ticking for years!!! Put it this way if you were comparing just these two kits alone and was never going to touch the brakes again after installing it.
Cons:
1. If bought new would probably cost more than a new Stoptech kit
2. It's heavy than the Stoptech kit.
3. Can be pita to redrill the 1pc 996 rotors if you don't have the means or knowledge to do so.
the one that needs drilling was the Prospeed brakes
which was basically the same components (brakes pirated off of a Porsche 996 TT)
Movit Pros:
1. bigger pad to rotor surface area (Porsche 4 to the Stoptech 4), Stoptech 6 piston caliper is most likely bigger than the Porsche 4 piston pad.
2. rotors should be cheaper to replace, I say should be if you are running a one piece 996 TT rotors, if running a 2 pc it would be an expensive pop.
3. pads for 996 TT are very easy to source and made by all the top pad cos, in all sorts of compounds.
4. with a little bit of knowledge and if you make your own brakets or find a pair of Prospeed brackets you can make a nice bbk for little money.....Porsche people sell those calipers and brakes to upgrade to the new P brakes. To them it's like us selling our LS1 brakes to go for something better.
5. Will take a beating and keep on ticking for years!!! Put it this way if you were comparing just these two kits alone and was never going to touch the brakes again after installing it.
Cons:
1. If bought new would probably cost more than a new Stoptech kit
2. It's heavy than the Stoptech kit.
3. Can be pita to redrill the 1pc 996 rotors if you don't have the means or knowledge to do so.
Last edited by 69TA; Mar 27, 2011 at 07:45 PM.
That right there kinda proves my point now doesnt it? If their rules state that their calipers must be made from aluminum materials, then that kinda means that they cant be made using any other materials, including steel pins or bolts. If their rules don't tell them they can do it, then they can't. Bottom Line.
Besides, heres more empirical data for you, that you cant seem to wrap your head around. The modulus of elasticity of 304 stainless steel is 200Gpa.. so therefor the 4-6 cross and bridge bolts found in a 2 piece caliper of today would be much stiffer than any sort of aluminum monoblock.
Stoptech spoke of the old style Girling calipers, but they didn't dwell on them. In fact most of that article was written referring to modern caliper design. Most all brake companies out there will agree that a monoblock caliper design will not be as stiff as a good 2 piece caliper. Call AP, call Brembo, call Stoptech. I have spoken to tech reps of these companies at SEMA in person and on the phone, and they were all in agreement.
Bottom line is Aluminum can not ever be as rigid as steel. The two materials are too different. As aluminum is heated up, it looses more rigidity.. and it doesn't really need to get that hot to do so, as low as 200* it will begin to allow flex, its just the nature of the material.. Steel on the other hand will increase in rigidity. I don't know about you, but I do know that most calipers in a decently fast car, on a decent road course will see caliper temperatures well above 200*.
Im not trying to school you with my Wilwood setup. There are better kits out there, this one happened to be a good match for my cars setup. I don't know why you are so hung up on that.. Get over it. If you can prove that aluminum can be stiffer than steel, then I want to know what your smoking.
Besides, heres more empirical data for you, that you cant seem to wrap your head around. The modulus of elasticity of 304 stainless steel is 200Gpa.. so therefor the 4-6 cross and bridge bolts found in a 2 piece caliper of today would be much stiffer than any sort of aluminum monoblock.
Stoptech spoke of the old style Girling calipers, but they didn't dwell on them. In fact most of that article was written referring to modern caliper design. Most all brake companies out there will agree that a monoblock caliper design will not be as stiff as a good 2 piece caliper. Call AP, call Brembo, call Stoptech. I have spoken to tech reps of these companies at SEMA in person and on the phone, and they were all in agreement.
Bottom line is Aluminum can not ever be as rigid as steel. The two materials are too different. As aluminum is heated up, it looses more rigidity.. and it doesn't really need to get that hot to do so, as low as 200* it will begin to allow flex, its just the nature of the material.. Steel on the other hand will increase in rigidity. I don't know about you, but I do know that most calipers in a decently fast car, on a decent road course will see caliper temperatures well above 200*.
Im not trying to school you with my Wilwood setup. There are better kits out there, this one happened to be a good match for my cars setup. I don't know why you are so hung up on that.. Get over it. If you can prove that aluminum can be stiffer than steel, then I want to know what your smoking.
Anyhow you proved yourself that a 2 pc caliper is weaker. By the point that the aluminum part is the weaker link in the equation. So yeah while your 2pc caliper (aluminum and steel) is expanding and contracting at different rates and the aluminum is losing "rigidity" what do you think is holding them together? The weak aluminum threads that your super strong steel bolts are screwed into.
What is the surface area of the threads in those 4 bolts?
Is that area more than the entire cross sectional area of my billet one? I don't think so.
And how strong are those aluminum threads going to be when they are at your stated "200+ degrees"?
Remember the two halves are just bolted together not welded and there are no nuts where the bolts attach but rather they thread in to the "weaker aluminum".
Here is a picture of two of my many billet calipers, a Baer and a Brembo. Did you notice that the red one has a steel crosspin that is held in with it's own steel nut on the other side......no flexing here. The other caliper has a twin bridge with a decent cross sectional area, no bolts here. No flexing here but being that there are no bolts, lets pick on this one (Baer) seeing how you say it flexes as compared to a Stoptech.
So why is it that my flexy Baer caliper is able to be rigid enough to run a larger pad than one from lets say a 2pc stoptech caliper?
I mean their caliper is so rigid. So Why not put a longer and large pad in there? It's not like there is no benefit to having a larger pad.
Also why is that of all the bolted together 2 piece calipers I have seen, none of them seem to run a large pad or bigger pad than one from a billet one? that tells a lot right there and makes you think.
As a matter of fact. When compared to lets say a Porsche 996 4 piston caliper from like 10 years ago, why is it that Stoptechs calipers are so rigid that they run smaller pads on there 4 piston caliper than one from the above singe piece Porsche one? And on there 6 piston calipers why are the pads a good bit smaller than my weak *** Baer? You said they are rigid right?
I mean with all things being equal and test mule that has infinate traction (to rule out lock up), same car, weight of car, rotor size, brake pressure applied, rate of speed, brake pad compound material, tires, every last thing you can possible think of. A larger same dna make up pad will offer a shorter stopping distance.
Last edited by 69TA; Mar 27, 2011 at 10:02 PM.
If I were you, I would go with the Stoptech kit. The Stoptech kit will likely be a better balanced brake kit for your application right out of the box. Stoptech worked very closely with Carroll Smith when it came to developing kits for various applications and vehicles. If you don't know who Carroll Smith is, Google him. When it came to setting up race cars, he was GOD. (not a TON of info here, but you get the idea: http://www.carrollsmith.com/biography/ )
Where Im going with this is that with the Stoptech kit, you are getting a setup that has been pre-engineered to meet your needs and provide a balanced brake upgrade for your vehicle. Your not transplanting a caliper and rotor setup from another vehicle and "making it work". Granted, the Movit kits are good, but for a truly balance setup that will serve you well for many decades, that also comes with great technical and customer support, the Stoptechs are probably your best bet.
Remember, if you over-bias the front braking system, it can lead to more problems than you may expect.
Im sure 69TA will try to tear this post apart, but in my well educated and experienced opinion, your best off getting a setup that has been engineered for your application rather than retrofitting another cars brakes on to your car. Piston area, pad area, etc. etc. will all come into play with how well the brakes perform in a serious performance application.
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been reading alot on brake kits and wanting to do this right the first time obviously the movit setup is more how do they compare performance wise, cost/availability of pads/rotors etc.
with the movit rotors do you have to redrill for the GM bolt pattern?
my other option is the ctsv setup which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper then the other two but not sure it will hold up to the abuse of multiple track days...
are there rotors for either kit that aren't drilled/slotted?
thanks
chad
with the movit rotors do you have to redrill for the GM bolt pattern?
my other option is the ctsv setup which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper then the other two but not sure it will hold up to the abuse of multiple track days...
are there rotors for either kit that aren't drilled/slotted?
thanks
chad
I'm the east coast rep for MOVIT and I can answer any questions you might have about our products. I'm not a supporting vendor on this site so I can't post information but I can answer any questions you might have offline. I currently support several F-bodies (LT1 and LS1) with our brakes and 3 of the cars are running in this years NASA / CMC series in the mid Atlantic.
Thanks
Robert
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TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 937
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From: Mehlingen, Germany
I have been a Movit believer since 2000. Th company has grown in leaps and bounds since my car was converted.
The company now designs its own brake systems to include Ceramic rotors.
This company also has a F1 Grand prix win with its Ceramic brakes.
On the same token, My buddy here in Germany has the Stoptech brakes on his Fbody. Nothing wrong with it . It uses a standard pad size that some Porsches, Ferraris and Brembo uses. What does this mean for us in Germany, well it opens up the whole line of Pagid Brake pads for us to use for Stop tech and Movit.
From what I have seen both are good systems. The Stoptech is a little cheaper on the front end but gets you on the back end for replacement friction rings. Movit is a little more expensive on the front end but the friction rings are cheaper on the back end. The one big plus is that the Movits are TUEV (Tuv) certified for the FBODY. This probably doesn't mean much in the USA. But here in Germany with out TUEV certification on parts , your vehicle is subject to impoundment until the part is removed or is certifed at the owners expense. In Germany all mods done to your vehicle are tied into the registration, so if it is not entered onto the registration, well you are in deep damn doo doo.
If you get a chance check out the Movit site . If you are not fluent in German just click the flag for the language you know.
That is all for now.
The company now designs its own brake systems to include Ceramic rotors.
This company also has a F1 Grand prix win with its Ceramic brakes.
On the same token, My buddy here in Germany has the Stoptech brakes on his Fbody. Nothing wrong with it . It uses a standard pad size that some Porsches, Ferraris and Brembo uses. What does this mean for us in Germany, well it opens up the whole line of Pagid Brake pads for us to use for Stop tech and Movit.
From what I have seen both are good systems. The Stoptech is a little cheaper on the front end but gets you on the back end for replacement friction rings. Movit is a little more expensive on the front end but the friction rings are cheaper on the back end. The one big plus is that the Movits are TUEV (Tuv) certified for the FBODY. This probably doesn't mean much in the USA. But here in Germany with out TUEV certification on parts , your vehicle is subject to impoundment until the part is removed or is certifed at the owners expense. In Germany all mods done to your vehicle are tied into the registration, so if it is not entered onto the registration, well you are in deep damn doo doo.
If you get a chance check out the Movit site . If you are not fluent in German just click the flag for the language you know.
That is all for now.
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 937
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From: Mehlingen, Germany
I think I know you, or at least your car. Ever been to Germany and driven the Hockenheimring ? If so I have video of your Blue GS . Smart move becoming a Movit distributor.
Teching In
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Can you send me a link to the video ? Hope it's good.... No crashing or off track maneuvers!
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2007
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come to think of it I think you posted video on the german / american camaro site... there was a site I used to visit for fbodies if remember correctly.
bitburg?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMO_SualSY
bitburg?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMO_SualSY
