New LCA & Panhard Bar Questions
12-12-2011, 12:21 PM
#21
I don't have any of products by companies in this thread but this statement seems like you have some hate towards them. Do you have proof of there bad welding or do you know everyone that works there? I have never seen there prodcuts fail on anyone's car on here. Just wondering why this was said to begin with????
12-12-2011, 12:37 PM
#22
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I have the founders PHB and LCA's on my vehicle I am very pleased with them. I am on a budget and wanted some decent parts and for the price I paid I could replace them twice over compared to the higher end one's. All I am saying is "I like them and have no complaints" hope this helps.
12-12-2011, 01:27 PM
#23
No horn tooting just honesty, when people are searching for suspension items please pay attention to if you are getting mild steal or chromemoly and the wall thickness it is. These things will dictate prices as well and still so many more points go into suspension items.
Also this was not a direct attack towards any particular manufacture just a general note for people looking for suspension items.
Also this was not a direct attack towards any particular manufacture just a general note for people looking for suspension items.
12-12-2011, 03:50 PM
#24
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No horn tooting just honesty, when people are searching for suspension items please pay attention to if you are getting mild steal or chromemoly and the wall thickness it is. These things will dictate prices as well and still so many more points go into suspension items.
Also this was not a direct attack towards any particular manufacture just a general note for people looking for suspension items.
Also this was not a direct attack towards any particular manufacture just a general note for people looking for suspension items.
12-12-2011, 07:27 PM
#25
Please also keep in mind that if you are purchasing something made from chrome-moly make sure the manufacturer of the parts does the proper post weld treatment to ensure you don't get a very expensive part with brittle welds. Most consumers don't know that the heat effected area at the very least needs to be normalized (baked in a heat treat oven for around 5 hours at 700-800 degrees) after welding but in order to get the strength back in the chrome-moly the whole part also needs to be normalized, stress relieved, and heat treated. If these processes are not done and or done properly you will end up with a part that has brittle welds and material that is the same strength as DOM.
Are you F'n kidding me? So all the suspension parts on these cars that myself and the other manufacturers here, as well as the shops that build the NHRA pro cars that haven't had that process done are all just gonna fall apart? Right on bro.
12-12-2011, 07:54 PM
#26
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I don't have any of products by companies in this thread but this statement seems like you have some hate towards them. Do you have proof of there bad welding or do you know everyone that works there? I have never seen there prodcuts fail on anyone's car on here. Just wondering why this was said to begin with????
The reason for tig...
1. No flux is used, hence there is no danger of flux entrapment when welding refrigerator and air conditioner components. 2. Because of clear visibility of the arc and the job, the operator can exercise a better control on the welding process. 3. This process can weld in all positions and produces smooth and sound welds with less spatter. 4. TIG welding is very much suitable for high quality welding of thin materials (as thin as 0.125 mm). 5. It is a very good process for welding nonferrous metals (aluminium etc.) and stainless steel. The reason as was sayimg i dont want people to buy bad products for there car. This is what makes the car handle the way it does. Would you buy some chepo landing gear for a plane? No this stuff needs to work and handle great even if the car is a dd it should be able to run a 7 sec and hold up. Any one that has a 9sec car have this product?
12-12-2011, 09:08 PM
#28
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C'mon guys, think about this for a minute....
I can see K-members or roll cages really being "finesse" fabrications. Panhard bars and LCAs... not so much.
In mathematical terms, you can only approach perfection as a limit. Unless you're driving Truckzilla over RVs and junker cars, I doubt you're gonna snap a weld from any reputable vendor on a simple part like that.
As someone mentioned earlier, just about any aftermarket suspension product is going to be an upgrade from the factory stamped steel components. Beyond that, you're talking about diminishing returns as costs go up exponentially to achieve that last 20% of improvement. Just decide on a budget, your goals, and go from there.
I don't always need to have to very best of everything on my car, I'm a value shopper. If I can get 80% of the gains at 50% of the cost of something marginally better, I'm taking the value buy... especially since suspension is not my highest priority.
Both MWC and Founders are, IMHO, good reputable companies. They compete at different levels of the marketplace to a certain extent. They are both successful because they both appeal of their own categories of buyers.
I can see K-members or roll cages really being "finesse" fabrications. Panhard bars and LCAs... not so much.
In mathematical terms, you can only approach perfection as a limit. Unless you're driving Truckzilla over RVs and junker cars, I doubt you're gonna snap a weld from any reputable vendor on a simple part like that.
As someone mentioned earlier, just about any aftermarket suspension product is going to be an upgrade from the factory stamped steel components. Beyond that, you're talking about diminishing returns as costs go up exponentially to achieve that last 20% of improvement. Just decide on a budget, your goals, and go from there.
I don't always need to have to very best of everything on my car, I'm a value shopper. If I can get 80% of the gains at 50% of the cost of something marginally better, I'm taking the value buy... especially since suspension is not my highest priority.
Both MWC and Founders are, IMHO, good reputable companies. They compete at different levels of the marketplace to a certain extent. They are both successful because they both appeal of their own categories of buyers.
12-12-2011, 10:04 PM
#31
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Your right i just saw it isnt but i have seen better tig welds just saying. If i had a founders part i would cut it in half on the weld to see how good of penetration it has. Then i would do the same to mwc, umi, or bmr and compare.
12-13-2011, 07:53 AM
#32
Someone should do this. That would be interesting to see how the welds look on each part.
12-13-2011, 09:52 AM
#33
I'll talk to Eric an see about having them weld something up and cut it apart to show it. All though these guys trust our welds at crazy MPH'S with our product front to back.
Along with 100's of daily drivers. Which like I mentioned see's more abuse than some race cars will ever see.
This customer is more than happy with our product and how it with stands abuse with out issue.
Along with 100's of daily drivers. Which like I mentioned see's more abuse than some race cars will ever see.
This customer is more than happy with our product and how it with stands abuse with out issue.
12-13-2011, 12:40 PM
#34
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Here you go. The first image is freshly cut and the second is slightly polished of the same part. Sorry for the picture quality but this was taken from my old phone.
12-13-2011, 12:55 PM
#35
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http://books.google.com/books?id=JyA...page&q&f=false
For those of you who haven't heard of Carroll Smith here is a little background on his credentials. I just copied this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Smith He was one of the greats and I had the honor of attending several of his speeches when he managed to make it to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo.
Born and raised in the northeast United States, Carroll Smith began racing MGs while attending the University of Rochester. Entering SCCA events in Pensacola, Florida at the time, he was enlisted in the US Navy.
Carroll moved to Europe where he befriended John Cooper. Driving a Formula Junior Cooper, he won his first race. After waning success in the Cooper cars, he returned to the United States and began working with Carroll Shelby and the Ford Motor Company on the GT40 MkIV program for the 1967 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race. Smith was hired as the Team Manager.
After winning Le Mans with the GT40 cars from 1966 to 1969 (inclusive), Ford lost interest in the GT40 program. Smith moved to work with Tony Adamowicz to work on his F5000 car in 1969. Smith led the team to the championship that year.
After that victory, he began working on 'Prepare to Win'. Smith later consulted for the Ferrari Formula One team and in 1977 he was team manager for the Moffat Ford Dealers Team in Australia; the team winning both the Australian Touring Car Championship and the Bathurst 1000 endurance race. In later life Smith exercised his interest in racing by running vintage cars. Carroll was an active and avid Society of Automotive Engineers member.
Smith succumbed to pancreatic cancer in 2003 at his home in Northern California, leaving his daughter Dana, his son Christopher, and his fiancée Ginger. Carroll's former wife, Jane, died on October 15, 1994 after a fall from a balcony in their home while she was gardening. Carroll himself notes: "She went doing what she liked best, enjoying the ocean view and gardening...secure in the love of her family and friends and in the respect of her co-workers and students."
Smith's books were well received by drivers and mechanics alike because of their affable, direct, and clear writing style. After writing a series of books about different aspects of racing car preparation, tuning and engineering practice, each with "... to Win" in the title, he wrote The Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing Handbook about the fasteners and plumbing parts often used in cars. When Smith announced the forthcoming book, he proclaimed his intent to title it "Screw to Win," which (he claimed) the publisher then disallowed. His readers and fans, naturally, refer to the book by just that title.
12-13-2011, 03:27 PM
#36
Why pay for the expensive material if you aren't going to take advantage of it and gain anything.
As for the good read of the book, when it mentions chromemoly not being very good choice for drive shafts or sway bars I kind of quit reading.
Last edited by MidwestChassis; 12-13-2011 at 04:55 PM.
12-13-2011, 04:49 PM
#37
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We don't tig these, they are the pulse spray method for greater strength. The pulse spray method gives a very high localized heat similar to tig but is fed by wire for greater speed. Unlike mig/short arc the weld wire never touches the base material that is being welded. What happens is the machine puts the arc in a high frequency mode just like tig welding but it then pulls out of the high frequency mode which creates a very small ball on the end of the electrode. When the machine ramps back up to high frequency mode it shoots the ball into the puddle the arc has created. The typical machine will pulse around 300 times per second and has a trim adjustment and wire feed adjustment. Our machines are fully programmable which allow us to write our own programs for each individual part to control the weld better.
12-13-2011, 04:58 PM
#38
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I've had parts from BMR,SPOHN,UMI and SLP. I liked Spohn the most. But following MWC builds over the years. I am brainstorming what they can do for me in the future. They are excellent fabricators and are more than a cookie cutter business. Founders may be ok for most. MWC would get my business first.
