joecar

No, that is very not correct.

The bushings are not supposed to rotate around the bolts; the center sleeve of the bushing is held fixed, and the bushing body rotates around the sleeve against the rubber molded to both pieces.

It is impossible to "pinch" the bushing body since the center of the bushing is a steel tube that extends out slightly from the bushing.

The GM Service Manual specifies the correct bolt torque, for A-arm bushings it is 74 ftlb.

And with the springs out, you can't articulate the arms with one finger... the rubber in the bushings is stiffer than one-finger's amount of torque.

eb110americana

iTrader: (4)

I'm inclined to agree with everything joecar just said. This sounds more like what I remember when I redid my suspension years ago with factory parts. (It was 8 years ago though, so the memory is a little fuzzy.) I know the bolts are pretty snug when you are done, I just didn't remember if they snug up against the subframe, or if the subframe snugs up against the bushing center tube due to deflection from the torque. I'm pretty sure the whole purpose of the bushing is to provide the necessary play for articulation, so leaving it any-kind-of-loose doesn't make sense to me. I've never had any problems with my front suspension and I've had at least one mechanic tell me that mine is the best riding F-body he's ever been in (and that's with all stock parts), so I must be doing something right.

StraightTimeStirrups

Never did I say that the steel bushing was to be lose! I completely agree with everything else you said except that every car I have ever worked on you can move the A-Arms with a finger and not have to use the palm of your hand to articulate the A-Arm! The steel sleeve is to be tight on the bolt! The scenario I explained is in the event that you do not have a torque wrench which I clearly stated that he should follow proper torque specs and manufactures instructions! There are times at the race track you just dont have time to get the torque wrench out and have to do it by feel!

Here is the main point, if the guy here can lift his car at the A-Arm and take it off the jack stand without articulating the suspension at all he either has truck springs in the car or something is bound up!

Joe

Joe

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Definitely a bind somewhere. As I said earlier, the car feels different when I sit down, no give. If I stand on the driver's doorsill and start jumping I can get the chassis to respond, not as much as it should though. A quick hop onto the doorsill won't move the chassis at all. The passenger side is a bit better, but I no longer remember how it used to be

When driving it seems like the problem is in the rear, the front seems to be absorbing the feel of the road "ok", but the rear feels like a welded chassis. I also hear a thump from the right rear when i back over the small pothole in my driveway, but everything (including upper shock mounts) is tight and nothing seems bound.

I think I'll take a look at the LCA mounts on the rearend and chassis to make sure they're parallel and move freely. I'm still not clear on the definition of "freely", but i'd assume that if I can move it by hand the weight of the chassis shouldn't have any issues. It may increase the spring rate slightly, but I wouldn't expect the results I'm feeling. It seems to handle bouncing, it moves like you'd expect (not sure how much to expect), but quick 'pops' shoot through the chassis without being absorbed by the suspension. Sounds like the recipe of a bind to me, I just can't find it because I can't pop the suspension hard enough and fast enough in the garage.

joecar

Yes, I agree, the A-rm should articulate, but it takes a bit more effort [at least several pounds of effort, pushing with one or two hands] (the rubber bonding the bushing body to the sleeve is fairly stiff and offers resistance to movement)... but, yes the A-arm should still move first when lifting the vehicle from the A-arm.

The procedure is this: install the bushing bolts/nuts partly loose, drop vehicle to the ground and get it level, then tighten the bolts/nuts to spec (74 ftlb)... if you overtighten these there is no harm done since the bushing sleeve is designed to be clamped tight between the tabs (and this is how it holds an alignment).

StraightTimeStirrups

This is the only part I disagree with! If you over tighten the bolts you take the chance of swelling the sleeve because it is the only way it can expand is out if you compress it by over-torquing and it will take up the clearance between the sleeve and the bushing and you end up with a bind! I have seen it happen by gorilla mechanics over-torquing fasteners!

Joe

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

If anyone has a magic "bind finder" wand, it would sure come in handy. I've been all over that damn thing and cant find any evidence of binding. All the suspension parts move as they should, I have a good 3" or so (I guess I should have measured it) travel in the rear before the bumpstops hit, but it feels like a solid suspension when driving; I can feel everything and the body doesn't roll or seem to shift much weight at all around corners.

I can jack under the balljoints up front and get 3-4" (again, should have measured) movement before it lifts the frame, ride heights at all 4 wheels are what they've always been and everything is tight and straight. Standing and jumping on the doorsill on either side doesn't get me much movement and what movement there is stops almost immediately when the jumping stops.

StraightTimeStirrups

At this point, you need to figure out how to upload photos and videos!

Joe

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

?? I've been uploading pics the whole time. Is there something specific you want to see? I may have found something, I don't like the front mount on the driver side rear LCA, it "looks" slanted sometimes. I'll post some pics, but they don't backup what i see (no, i'm not crazy, I swear! ) the pass side looks different. I just noticed this last night and haven't had time to investigate.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Here are the forward mounts for the rear LCAs. not the best pics, but they kinda give you the idea how the two sides look different. Hard to see from this view,the mounts aren't as fragile as they look. The part that has my attention is between the first two arrows left to right. It looks stretched out and bent down. I could see how this could create a bind for the arm.

I think the next step is to remove the arm from the rearend and see if it tries to rotate off parallel. I didn't notice a problem when i hooked things back up, the bolts aligned fairly easily, but tightening it down may show there's a twist there.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Do these look like everyone else's? The don't seem as solid as what I would use, but judging by some of the welds I've seen on the frontend, I'm not surprised. The look stretched out and I don't have any old pics to compare with, so I'm wondering how everyone else's look (not sure if the mounts on verts are different, but I wouldn't think so).

Formula1996

iTrader: (7)

Here's pics of mine if it helps:
Passenger looking back:


Drivers side looking back:

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Ah, teasing me with aftermarket stuff doesn't help, but thanx for rubbing it in Looks like you may have a crack...

I've about given up, I'm afraid. I tore it all apart and piece by piece confirmed that, despite looking like it's all bent out of shape, everything aligned perfectly whether loose or tight. Going to take one more shot at the frontend, there's nothing wrong in the rear (except that rattle which is making me more and more concerned).

There's a bind somewhere, I just don't know how to figure out what corner its on and I've run out of ideas; looks like the well is going dry on here as well. Thanx everyone for your help, sorry I couldn't provide better clues.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Not sure if this is interesting or not: With the front up on stands and tires on, ip put a bar under the RF and lift. At that point, I hear a squirting sound from the shock (brand new as of 2 weeks ago). When I do the same to the LF, I don't hear the sound.

And just to compare with others, when I disconnect the front sway bar and jack under the ball joints I get a little over 2" of lift before it starts to come up off the stands; at that point, the suspension is still not quite at ride configuration (meaning the control arms are not parallel to the ground), which I think makes sense. Does the amount of lift seem right?

StraightTimeStirrups

The only way to find your bind is to take the shocks and springs out a move each part independent of one another until you find your bind. Loosen up each bolt one at a time and check for a bind at each location. If you loosen something and the bind remains, re-lube that bolt/bushing and re-torque that fastener and move to the next one! I would also check each ball joint and make sure one of them isn't seized up along with your steering rack and mounting points!

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

That's exactly what I'm in the process of doing Did the rear (again) last night and will start on the fronts after work. It bothers me that the bumps in the road can be felt so much yet I'm clear of the bump stops and can move all 4 corners up and down without bottoming anything out.

joecar

Do you have the upper control arms in their correct left/right positions...?

Is your shock binding up...?

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I'm almost positive they are correct (I was completely positive until you asked). Here is a pic of the passenger side. The UCA goes down to the rear, as does the Driver side.

I felt (and heard) what I can best describe as a tire dragging on an abrasive freeway this morning (like there was too much toe and it was following one tire while scraping the other because it's not rolling straight). When I get to work I saw cupping on the outside edge of the RF (the side that has the "noisy" shock). I've always believed that cupping was caused by a bad shock, but never understood exactly how it occurs. I wouldn't consider this "dragging" scenario as a shock problem.

The noise I hear does sound like air and liquid, not just liquid.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Not sure if the shock is binding, it looks to be fine, and I can bounce that corner.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Just an update. Bad rainy day in Portland yesterday, I couldn't go over 30-40mph on the freeway (embarrassing). I could feel a tire "dragging", sometimes it felt like a front, sometimes like a rear. I took it back to the dealer and broke down and bought 2 new tires (i've tried everything else, and the tires ARE bad); they also checked the alignment and it was just as it had been when they did it 2 weeks ago. We put the new tires up front and the least worn ones on the rear. I drove it home, no difference.

Last night I pulled both UCA's, greased them up and re-installed at ride height (maint manual doesn't give torque setting for the bushings, not sure why). What I had previously thought was a shock popping over big bumps was actually the UCA bushing, that sound is gone now. The RF shock still puts out a squirting sound when compressed, LF does not. No leaks on either. With the sway bar disconnected, both front sides get 2-3" travel when jacked under the ball joint before they start to lift the frame. All seems good up front

I used tie downs on the front then the back of both front tires and attached to the frame (1 at a time, 4 total) and turned the wheel, no play in the steering system.

It seems everything I do has an effect, but nothing fixes it. The current sensation is:

1. No give when I sit in it, like sitting on a rock
2. Feels like it's rear-steering sometimes
3. Other times it feels like it's toe'd out too much and switches following one wheel then the other.
4. Crossing over a crown in the road is a violent experience, once it hits the crest it makes a mad dash for the guardrail.
5. Seems to be dragging a tire when on an abrasive road, cant tell if it's front or back for some reason (can both hear it and feel it)
5. Can feel every imperfection in the road
6. Corners on the freeway at speed are a bit scary, feels like it's pushing if I go too fast (which isn't very fast)
7. Feels like it's skating on top of the road instead of biting into it
8. A slight washboard road gets it out of control
9. It keeps me awake at night then lulls me to sleep when I'm underneath it, probably a plot to finally do me in for good since I've gotten used to the adventure of a 5am commute in the rain in it and no longer need to be medicated by the time I get to work.

Swore I saw a spun axle tube, but the voices in my head are telling me to hush, so I'll wait until I can look at it in more depth tonight.