Would like to setup my suspension for corner carving.
05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
#21
The Fays2 is a great piece, but if you run a 3.5" or larger over axle pipe and are lowered +1.2" or even with a 3" pipe if lowered more than +1.5" you will have clearance issues with the passenger side axle tube clamp That's why I went with a dumped exhaust setup yrs ago. As much as I hated to do it I went back to a PHB so I could run a quieter exhaust with having installed H/C/LT headers last year. Having a PHB doesn't mean your car won't handle great, you just won't be able to push your handling limits (under certain conditions) quite as far as with a properly set up watts link.
BTW the only poly bushing I'd recommend on the LCA's is the J&M poly-ball bushings; otherwise don't use them.
Here's also why I offset the rear-end a little to the driver side with a PHB.
Thanks for posting the JIF, JD-AMG.
It really simplifies the explanation of how the phb works!
BTW the only poly bushing I'd recommend on the LCA's is the J&M poly-ball bushings; otherwise don't use them.
Here's also why I offset the rear-end a little to the driver side with a PHB.
Thanks for posting the JIF, JD-AMG.
It really simplifies the explanation of how the phb works!
05-03-2012, 02:20 PM
#22
Yes. The most free movement is of course with rod-ends or Roto-joints at both ends. But there is some wheel rate gain in the bushings. If you go to all rod-end/roto's you lose a touch or roll stiffness which you wish to gain back with bar or spring. This is where something like an adjustable rear bar is pretty cool.
Also, on the Watts link side of things. Remember that is also allows a lot of adjustment to the roll center height which changes the balance of the car quite a lot. If you can't get a car to settle down, you can drop it the RC. If it's tight you can raise it. Just like, but better than, those NASCAR boys raising and lowering the "track bar" (panhard bar) height.
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05-04-2012, 07:27 PM
#24
I don't blame you. That's a lot of money for some steel tubing. But even in saying that I completely understand the benefit over a PHB but you always have to weight out cost to benefit and for me I don't think I could benefit enough to make up the near 500 extra dollars. Maybe if I was a big time competitor in Auto X or some other motorsport but I'm not so...
So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?
So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.
So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?
So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.
Last edited by Unforgiven1; 05-04-2012 at 07:38 PM.
05-04-2012, 07:43 PM
#25
I always forget to ask something...
When purchasing these aftermarket suspension pieces there seems to be an option in regards to the material used for the piece itself. As in mild steel/Chromoly. I understand that there is a difference in rigidity as one metal would be more resistant to flex than the other...Is there such a thing as having one of these too rigid? Is there a point to where inflexibility becomes a detriment to performance driving?
When purchasing these aftermarket suspension pieces there seems to be an option in regards to the material used for the piece itself. As in mild steel/Chromoly. I understand that there is a difference in rigidity as one metal would be more resistant to flex than the other...Is there such a thing as having one of these too rigid? Is there a point to where inflexibility becomes a detriment to performance driving?
05-04-2012, 08:14 PM
#26
I don't blame you. That's a lot of money for some steel tubing. But even in saying that I completely understand the benefit over a PHB but you always have to weight out cost to benefit and for me I don't think I could benefit enough to make up the near 500 extra dollars. Maybe if I was a big time competitor in Auto X or some other motorsport but I'm not so...
So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?
So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.
So anyway, Sway Bars------->Struts---->Springs----->Adjustable PHB in that order if buying seperately. I suppose the sway bars and struts would be a matter of opinion as to which to do first or does one benefit more so than the other?
So thats what I get from our chat. Beyond that someone needs to talk to me about bushing options. I know Polyurethane bushings can be bad due to binding and the like which makes a regular rubber a better option but even more so a roto which allows full articulation. What in the hell is a rod end for? Rod to me suggest no articulation at all however it appears that I'm wrong in that thought. These articulate...just not as much as a roto? So they would be an improvment over poly/rubber but not as good as a roto? Anyway. Talk to me about bushing options and where each one shines in what application. TIA.
If it was legal in the class, and a pure competition car, I'd run them all day long. There is no doubt they allow full range of motion. Here's the thing, rod ends hate road grime. I had a set wear out in less than 500 miles, and let me tell you they make a hell of racket when they do go, on top of the noise they usual transmit and make.
You can buy rod ends boots, and the fays2's watts link come with seals to insulate the ends in the links, but i wouldn't run them on a street car. Stick with rubber, or if you just can't quell the itch use poly ***** or roto-joints.
05-05-2012, 01:10 AM
#27
It will be a dual purpose car for the most part. Currently I'm having to task it with DD and I'm going to start with auto X soon. I don't know for certain, but I'm figuring I'll need to do some of this to become competitive. It's dependent upon how well I take to auto x as to how far and how deep I go.
With that said and based upon your description rod ends are out for this guy. Because this car even when not DD will still get taken out for liesure. It won't ever see track only duty...at least not in the certain future. So for the same reasons I don't want a lumpy cam I don't want a clunky rod ended suspension part. So I guess it will be rubber or roto joint when the time comes.
#################################################
On a side note, currently I hear a creaking groaning noise most generally within the area just behind the driver seat. I've tightened the LCA connection to the body and that killed one noise over bumps...however the creaking/groaning still persists. I have also hose modded the rear end hoping the bumpstops were the culprit. Nope.
I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?
I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?
With that said and based upon your description rod ends are out for this guy. Because this car even when not DD will still get taken out for liesure. It won't ever see track only duty...at least not in the certain future. So for the same reasons I don't want a lumpy cam I don't want a clunky rod ended suspension part. So I guess it will be rubber or roto joint when the time comes.
#################################################
On a side note, currently I hear a creaking groaning noise most generally within the area just behind the driver seat. I've tightened the LCA connection to the body and that killed one noise over bumps...however the creaking/groaning still persists. I have also hose modded the rear end hoping the bumpstops were the culprit. Nope.
I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?
I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?
05-05-2012, 06:06 AM
#28
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I am basically in the same boat as you. I have grown up at the drag strip but have recently become extremely interested in autox/road racing. With that in mind, these are the parts I just ordered from Strano:
UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's
From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.
Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.
Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.
UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's
From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.
Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.
Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.
05-05-2012, 08:14 AM
#29
On a side note, currently I hear a creaking groaning noise most generally within the area just behind the driver seat. I've tightened the LCA connection to the body and that killed one noise over bumps...however the creaking/groaning still persists. I have also hose modded the rear end hoping the bumpstops were the culprit. Nope.
I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?
I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?
I've seen that swaybar endlinks often times begin to make noises also. Is this an issue with something being wore down or just in need of greasing?
I haven't located grease zerks...to be honest I haven't tried to find them that hard, but either way how do you grease the bushngs up if there are no zerks?
There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.
Last edited by lees02WS6; 05-05-2012 at 08:20 AM.
05-05-2012, 02:56 PM
#30
I am basically in the same boat as you. I have grown up at the drag strip but have recently become extremely interested in autox/road racing. With that in mind, these are the parts I just ordered from Strano:
UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's
From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.
Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.
Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.
UMI dbl adj LCA's with roto joints
UMI weld on LCA relo brackets
Strano hollow sway bars
Koni 4/4 sport shocks
Strano springs
UMI 2 point tubular SFC's
From what information I have gained both by researching myself and talking to Strano, roto joints are a good middle of the road option. My car will be a daily driver as well, btw.
Next on my list will be a dbl. adj. panhard bar by UMI, as well as a UMI torque arm and relocation kit.
Again, I plan on doing some autox and road racing strictly for fun, but getting rid of wheel hop and gaining some traction both at the strip and on the street was a big priority of mine. I, however, wanted the car to handle as well as possible for a daily driver.
There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.
05-05-2012, 09:36 PM
#31
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?
05-05-2012, 09:43 PM
#32
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?
The guy wants to autocross, while retaining daily livability, telling him to run parts that aren't geared towards that end would be bad advice, no?
05-06-2012, 11:28 AM
#33
TECH Senior Member
Wow what a lot of info. So tell me, I have stock springs Monroe Shocks and Struts and a set of Dunlop tires and I can exit the highway on the clover leaf at no more that 50 MPH any faster and I lose the rear end. So if I spend all this money on those things how much faster can I go on the clover leaf? Does anyone know?
But Ill tell you what buddy, Ill humor you.
Ditch the bind happy poly bushings for rubber, and swap out the joke shocks (we don't have struts, you know this) for Koni SA's and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you saw 70mph on that same ramp. But wait, thats not all, the car would also be ridiculously neutral, and not feel like its going to kill you at the limit (as your current shocks can't damp worth crap causing the car to feel loose and floaty, and the poly bushings bind up causing the wheel rate to spike and either put you into massive uncontrollable oversteer or understeer). Yeah, and thats just good shocks with the stock bushings...
Add the springs and swaybars and Id expect 80-90mph on the same ramp, again feeling remarkably neutral and balanced and easy to push at the limit. All this and its going to ride better than what you have now too...
05-06-2012, 08:18 PM
#36
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Cute.
But Ill tell you what buddy, Ill humor you.
Ditch the bind happy poly bushings for rubber, and swap out the joke shocks (we don't have struts, you know this) for Koni SA's and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you saw 70mph on that same ramp. But wait, thats not all, the car would also be ridiculously neutral, and not feel like its going to kill you at the limit (as your current shocks can't damp worth crap causing the car to feel loose and floaty, and the poly bushings bind up causing the wheel rate to spike and either put you into massive uncontrollable oversteer or understeer). Yeah, and thats just good shocks with the stock bushings...
Add the springs and swaybars and Id expect 80-90mph on the same ramp, again feeling remarkably neutral and balanced and easy to push at the limit. All this and its going to ride better than what you have now too...
But Ill tell you what buddy, Ill humor you.
Ditch the bind happy poly bushings for rubber, and swap out the joke shocks (we don't have struts, you know this) for Koni SA's and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you saw 70mph on that same ramp. But wait, thats not all, the car would also be ridiculously neutral, and not feel like its going to kill you at the limit (as your current shocks can't damp worth crap causing the car to feel loose and floaty, and the poly bushings bind up causing the wheel rate to spike and either put you into massive uncontrollable oversteer or understeer). Yeah, and thats just good shocks with the stock bushings...
Add the springs and swaybars and Id expect 80-90mph on the same ramp, again feeling remarkably neutral and balanced and easy to push at the limit. All this and its going to ride better than what you have now too...
05-06-2012, 08:28 PM
#37
Poly sucks because it only has 1 axis of rotation, that's the issue with it for a DD.
Rubber is the way to go for total comfort, OR you can go with rotojoints if you want similar performance to rod ends without the noise and other issues that come with them (though they are still harsher than rubber is). That's the way I plan to go in the long run.
Founders swivel joint looks like it could be another good option, perhaps, but they don't have those on both ends of their control arms as an option (yet?). I'll be keeping an eye on those and reviews on noise and long-term durability as their pricing is more appealing.
Rubber is the way to go for total comfort, OR you can go with rotojoints if you want similar performance to rod ends without the noise and other issues that come with them (though they are still harsher than rubber is). That's the way I plan to go in the long run.
Founders swivel joint looks like it could be another good option, perhaps, but they don't have those on both ends of their control arms as an option (yet?). I'll be keeping an eye on those and reviews on noise and long-term durability as their pricing is more appealing.
Last edited by SparkyJJO; 05-06-2012 at 08:34 PM.
05-07-2012, 09:37 AM
#38
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[QUOTE=Unforgiven1;16277457]Yeah me too. For whatever reason, I never really thought about auto x-ing this thing. Seems like everybody has a 10 sec camaro or trans am but not everyone has one that can carve through the slaloms at 50 or 60 and that's cool to me. With that being said I still wanna see this car hit a low to mid 11.
Exactlyyyyy. That as well as I'm getting sick of ricers saying "ok nows lets take it around some twisties" after I hand them their *** in a straight line.
Exactlyyyyy. That as well as I'm getting sick of ricers saying "ok nows lets take it around some twisties" after I hand them their *** in a straight line.
05-07-2012, 01:19 PM
#39
No, I didn't say that. You would need to check with a piece of 90* exhaust tubing in the diameter you would use along with the procedure I listed below.
If you really want to see how much clearance you have jack the car up (high enough to get a set of ramps under the tires) then remove the rear springs. Id then place some ramps under the rear tires and slowly lower the car down until the full weight of the car is on the bump stops. Now you can check to see how much clearance you really have between the exhaust and axle tube.
If you really want to see how much clearance you have jack the car up (high enough to get a set of ramps under the tires) then remove the rear springs. Id then place some ramps under the rear tires and slowly lower the car down until the full weight of the car is on the bump stops. Now you can check to see how much clearance you really have between the exhaust and axle tube.
05-09-2012, 10:22 PM
#40
There are no grease zerks on the factory parts. Grease has a negative effect on rubber, and rubber bushings work by compressing and twisting, which means they need clamping force to grab the side of the metal mount they are in. You are on the right track that's either the lca bushings or the sway endlinks. Visually inspect them for distortion, cracks, rot, or fatigue. If all else fails, spray silicone lube on one bushing at a time, and drive around and see if that eliminates the groaning.
I am kind of curious however as to if moog sells a full bushing kit? I see that energy suspension and prothane offer full kits but didn't see a full kit for moog. Is moog the only one that are manufacturing aftermarket rubber bushings?