What will be better for me, Poly or Roto?
10-11-2012, 10:45 AM
#1
What will be better for me, Poly or Roto? My car is a nice weekend and summer car but I still want the best performance I can get from it. My car is 97% street driven, 2% drag racing (at a track), and 1% road course (I hope to do a lot more of). I'm starting to do suspension mods (already started with some and are listed in sig) and I plan to use all UMI parts as I've used them in the past on previous projects and been happy with their results. What I'm concerned with right now is the rear lower control arms and the panhard bar. I am going to buy the on car adjustable for both the LCA and the PHB. But what will be better? I have read that the poly binds preventing some articulation and that hinders performance some but then again, the Roto comes with a tool to rebuild it. I'm sorry but if I'm buying something that you're already telling me will fail and I'll be out more money to rebuild/replace makes me nervous and makes the slight lack in performance from the poly bushing seem better due to longevity and reliability, but maybe I'm not understanding something. Just looking for some input. I will also be using their 3 point weld in's, STB, and their solid sway bar kit 35/22 which I will purchase in a few months. And I plan to do the front upper and lower in the future as well as a K member when the motor comes out so any advice for those future mods are welcome as well. Thanks guys.
10-11-2012, 10:48 AM
#2
My roto joints were really noisy and clackety. If you are just driving on the street with limited track time I would just buy a poly joint. I ran the rotos for a year and switched back to stock control arms and poly ends on the panhard. It still handles nice, but it is quiet on the street. Founders performance has a new hybrid joint that is almost like a roto joint, but made of poly or rubber. I can't remember off the top of my head.
10-11-2012, 11:20 AM
#3
The tool that comes with the roto-joint isn't there because the joint is going to "fail". As you put miles on the roto-joint, the delrin bushing is going to wear some, and the tool that comes with the joint allows you to tighten or loosen it - which allows you to take up slight slop from wear, and to set the joint tighter or looser.
I like rod ends on everything. They're not noisy until they need replaced (when they'll start cllunking), and they do transmit a bit more NVH than poly bushings, but it's not significant in an f-body.
Roto-joints are a lateral advancement of rod-ends - they can be rebuilt, so you don't have to replace the whole thing (rod ends are also replaceable, but cost more), and you can adjust how tight or loose you want the joint. They're marketed as something between a poly, with less transmitted NVH but significant bind in certain applications, and rod-ends, with more transmitted NVH but virtually no bind. Personally, I think they're a bit irrelevant, but a lot of people run them and like them.
I like rod ends on everything. They're not noisy until they need replaced (when they'll start cllunking), and they do transmit a bit more NVH than poly bushings, but it's not significant in an f-body.
Roto-joints are a lateral advancement of rod-ends - they can be rebuilt, so you don't have to replace the whole thing (rod ends are also replaceable, but cost more), and you can adjust how tight or loose you want the joint. They're marketed as something between a poly, with less transmitted NVH but significant bind in certain applications, and rod-ends, with more transmitted NVH but virtually no bind. Personally, I think they're a bit irrelevant, but a lot of people run them and like them.
10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
#4
The tool that comes with the roto-joint isn't there because the joint is going to "fail". As you put miles on the roto-joint, the delrin bushing is going to wear some, and the tool that comes with the joint allows you to tighten or loosen it - which allows you to take up slight slop from wear, and to set the joint tighter or looser.
I like rod ends on everything. They're not noisy until they need replaced (when they'll start cllunking), and they do transmit a bit more NVH than poly bushings, but it's not significant in an f-body.
Roto-joints are a lateral advancement of rod-ends - they can be rebuilt, so you don't have to replace the whole thing (rod ends are also replaceable, but cost more), and you can adjust how tight or loose you want the joint. They're marketed as something between a poly, with less transmitted NVH but significant bind in certain applications, and rod-ends, with more transmitted NVH but virtually no bind. Personally, I think they're a bit irrelevant, but a lot of people run them and like them.
I like rod ends on everything. They're not noisy until they need replaced (when they'll start cllunking), and they do transmit a bit more NVH than poly bushings, but it's not significant in an f-body.
Roto-joints are a lateral advancement of rod-ends - they can be rebuilt, so you don't have to replace the whole thing (rod ends are also replaceable, but cost more), and you can adjust how tight or loose you want the joint. They're marketed as something between a poly, with less transmitted NVH but significant bind in certain applications, and rod-ends, with more transmitted NVH but virtually no bind. Personally, I think they're a bit irrelevant, but a lot of people run them and like them.
10-11-2012, 11:42 AM
#5
I'm really wanting something that I can put on, make my adjustments and just kinda forget about and it doesn't sound like that may be the case with a roto end. I'm thinking the poly may be what I'm looking for. If many years down the road they start to come apart or whatever, I can always put a new poly bushing in...
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10-11-2012, 12:56 PM
#8
First, the "joint" that Founders has isn't new... it's just new to them. And it's not actually a joint. J&M has been selling that kind of thing for a long time, but it's of not much good. See, urethane is sticky... that's why you need to lube it. When you put urethane on urethane, it's even more sticky. You can have 3 pieces or 8, is doesn't want to slide or rotate.
While one of those and something like a roto-joint or rod-end look like they'll work the same way, they absolutely do not. The latter two use metal ***** that ride in some kind of delrin or teflon lined plastic race, which do not bind. Roto-joints are serviceable, and have twice the bearing race area, which better distributes the load, than rod-ends... and of course rod-ends are not serviceable.
All poly arms will bind the axle in roll, that's just fact. They don't want to let the axle pivot independently from the body, so the body gets yanked around when you drop wheels in dips, etc. And when the body wants to roll it wants to unload the inside rear wheel more than if the axle was free to pivot (really the same as a rock crawling Jeep's front axle if you think about it).
Sooooo, I usually recommend a Poly/Roto-joint combination. The Poly in front helps isolate any noise you might get from the Roto-joint, the Roto lets the axle articulate properly and freely.
If all that annoys you... then I can set you up with some solid rubber 1LE rear control arm bushings, which flex better than Poly, are quiet, and cheap. But I would not recommend boxing the stock arms, because you actually want some flex for articulation and if you don't get it with the bushings or ends you are running then you want the arm to help you out. And fwiw, stock arms are not as weak as the appear. The chines on the edges stiffen those a lot.
While one of those and something like a roto-joint or rod-end look like they'll work the same way, they absolutely do not. The latter two use metal ***** that ride in some kind of delrin or teflon lined plastic race, which do not bind. Roto-joints are serviceable, and have twice the bearing race area, which better distributes the load, than rod-ends... and of course rod-ends are not serviceable.
All poly arms will bind the axle in roll, that's just fact. They don't want to let the axle pivot independently from the body, so the body gets yanked around when you drop wheels in dips, etc. And when the body wants to roll it wants to unload the inside rear wheel more than if the axle was free to pivot (really the same as a rock crawling Jeep's front axle if you think about it).
Sooooo, I usually recommend a Poly/Roto-joint combination. The Poly in front helps isolate any noise you might get from the Roto-joint, the Roto lets the axle articulate properly and freely.
If all that annoys you... then I can set you up with some solid rubber 1LE rear control arm bushings, which flex better than Poly, are quiet, and cheap. But I would not recommend boxing the stock arms, because you actually want some flex for articulation and if you don't get it with the bushings or ends you are running then you want the arm to help you out. And fwiw, stock arms are not as weak as the appear. The chines on the edges stiffen those a lot.
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10-11-2012, 03:00 PM
#9
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First, the "joint" that Founders has isn't new... it's just new to them. And it's not actually a joint. J&M has been selling that kind of thing for a long time, but it's of not much good. See, urethane is sticky... that's why you need to lube it. When you put urethane on urethane, it's even more sticky. You can have 3 pieces or 8, is doesn't want to slide or rotate.
We also have a swivel joints that use a metal ball with hard polyurethane instead of Delrin. We along with many offroad shops have discovered that Delrin has bad wear rates which is why we don't use them. Theron Fabrication switched from Delrin back to polyurethane on the track bars they build due to high wear rates.
10-11-2012, 03:18 PM
#10
Copy & Paste Moderator
I've had both rod-ends and roto-joints. The roto-joints are quieter and more comfortable, yet still provide a similar level of articulation.
I currently have the on-car adjustable roto-joint LCAs (roto-joint on both ends of the LCA).
I currently have the on-car adjustable roto-joint LCAs (roto-joint on both ends of the LCA).
10-11-2012, 09:18 PM
#13
Thats another thing I'm concerned with as well. I want my entire suspension to match. I don't want half my car to be poly and other half roto or vis versa. If I go poly, the entire car will get poly, and the like wise if I go roto.
Last edited by 94Z28-MSTGKLR; 10-11-2012 at 09:25 PM.
10-11-2012, 11:02 PM
#14
Copy & Paste Moderator
10-12-2012, 07:34 AM
#16
Our Roto-Joint is greasable and semi-sealed but can get some moisture in it if not serviced properly. As with anything else on the car, proper maintenance will help extend service life. Fresh, high quality grease light and often is the best defense against anything getting into the joint.
As for not mixing ends on a car, we sell a ton of poly roto combos. It really is up to the purchaser as to whether they want to mix or not.
The nice thing about this business and hot rodding in general is we have a ton of options as do you. Some guys like all rubber and no noise, some go full rod end everywhere and most go somewhere in between.
ramey
As for not mixing ends on a car, we sell a ton of poly roto combos. It really is up to the purchaser as to whether they want to mix or not.
The nice thing about this business and hot rodding in general is we have a ton of options as do you. Some guys like all rubber and no noise, some go full rod end everywhere and most go somewhere in between.
ramey
10-12-2012, 10:12 AM
#17
TECH Senior Member
Poly doesn't work well in some areas (areas like control arms that need articulation), but for things like swaybar endlinks and D-bushings they work fine (non moving parts). And honestly we know poly bushings bind, so I don't see why thats even an option for someone that wants to do more than just drive strait.
Rubber works very very well in most places, I would stick to that especially if its a street car.
