Quest for a better ride!
08-19-2013, 08:36 AM
#41
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Front only....
I think its more #1, but that I'm hitting the bumpstops. My car sitting on the wheels there is about 7/16" to 1/2" between the top of the BS and the K member.
I think my Camaro rides pretty good for what it is. Bumps rarely feel that great, but they arent horrible. Big bumps are like out of the question. I am not expecting my passengers to take a nice nap while I'm offroading in my ls1 fbody.
Slamming over bumps could mean one of two things:
1. The shocks aren't dampening the movement good enough and you hit full suspension travel at a higher velocity
2. They are too stiff and your body is absorbing the bumps rather than the suspension
Which do you think is occurring?
Slamming over bumps could mean one of two things:
1. The shocks aren't dampening the movement good enough and you hit full suspension travel at a higher velocity
2. They are too stiff and your body is absorbing the bumps rather than the suspension
Which do you think is occurring?
08-19-2013, 09:40 AM
#42
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If you feel like you are slamming on bumpstops, then I would go with Koni's then all around. The single adjustable ones. They provide ideal compression damping for typical unsprung weight, stock axles/wheels. A great amount of rebound adjustment range ideal for stock springs to road race springs.
Miracles don't happen though.. I think there are some people out there that think they should be able to offroad their car and that there is a suspension combo out there that should make it feel comfortable.
Miracles don't happen though.. I think there are some people out there that think they should be able to offroad their car and that there is a suspension combo out there that should make it feel comfortable.
08-19-2013, 10:30 AM
#43
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I know they don't happen, however I have been in a buddys car that is my EXACT same setup minus the del a lums (he has the PTS bushings) and his car rides amazing!!!
My other buddy with a 91 ta has the same springs (pro kit) and his rides so much better than mine.
Neither of them have changed the bump stops and it doesn't seem the their cars hit them.
Maybe I got bad shocks even though they were new they aren't dampening as they should?
My other buddy with a 91 ta has the same springs (pro kit) and his rides so much better than mine.
Neither of them have changed the bump stops and it doesn't seem the their cars hit them.
Maybe I got bad shocks even though they were new they aren't dampening as they should?
08-19-2013, 11:42 AM
#44
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I'm not sure. Sam sounded like those shocks are nothing special, and I usually trust his opinion when it comes to shocks since he's got personal experience with a ton of them. But that's just me. Ride quality seems to really be personal taste. I was just trying to analyze the "characteristics" of the ride you are experiencing, and then coming up with a solution. As opposed to "Whats bad and what's good?" which doesn't actually analyze and solve any problems.
08-19-2013, 05:33 PM
#45
I know they don't happen, however I have been in a buddys car that is my EXACT same setup minus the del a lums (he has the PTS bushings) and his car rides amazing!!!
My other buddy with a 91 ta has the same springs (pro kit) and his rides so much better than mine.
Neither of them have changed the bump stops and it doesn't seem the their cars hit them.
Maybe I got bad shocks even though they were new they aren't dampening as they should?
My other buddy with a 91 ta has the same springs (pro kit) and his rides so much better than mine.
Neither of them have changed the bump stops and it doesn't seem the their cars hit them.
Maybe I got bad shocks even though they were new they aren't dampening as they should?
BTW, how does you front ride height compare to you friends cars, does it sit Higher/lower?
The only other solution which I know would work is if you could find a good set of used belltech front drop spindles and use them with stock ride height springs. That would get you stock compression travel and ride.
Last edited by 99Bluz28; 08-19-2013 at 05:43 PM.
08-19-2013, 09:42 PM
#46
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Ride heights are the same, or look like it visually.
I installed shorter bumpstops, no dice. I don't think the problem was the bumpstops now, it is still a problem with the front end only. It seems when going over something that will make the suspension compress and rebound quickly it makes a noise which I may have mistaken for a "rough ride" it doesn't seem to be the t tops but i cant rule those out just yet.
On newer cars (or even aftermarket cars that have properly working suspension) when going over a bump it seems to be absorbed by the suspension system, mine almost seems like instead of absorbing the bump, it is actually transferring it to the car and makes a "slam" sound and feel. I thought it was bottoming out on the BS and thats why I thought that was the problem. Its hard to describe whats happening
Things to check would be t-top tightness
Strut mounts - change back to rubber
A arm bushings - change to PST bushings (poly graphite bushings) or rubber
I installed shorter bumpstops, no dice. I don't think the problem was the bumpstops now, it is still a problem with the front end only. It seems when going over something that will make the suspension compress and rebound quickly it makes a noise which I may have mistaken for a "rough ride" it doesn't seem to be the t tops but i cant rule those out just yet.
On newer cars (or even aftermarket cars that have properly working suspension) when going over a bump it seems to be absorbed by the suspension system, mine almost seems like instead of absorbing the bump, it is actually transferring it to the car and makes a "slam" sound and feel. I thought it was bottoming out on the BS and thats why I thought that was the problem. Its hard to describe whats happening
Things to check would be t-top tightness
Strut mounts - change back to rubber
A arm bushings - change to PST bushings (poly graphite bushings) or rubber
08-20-2013, 06:58 AM
#48
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I guess i'm ok with a car that handles slightly worse and the turn in is not as crisp since this car is and has always been a street car first.
I made the mistake that I think a lot of people make and just modified everything in the suspension to build it to basically be a track car. When I should have been building a street car that I can take to the track. I think I got to rethink my suspension set up.
08-20-2013, 07:30 AM
#49
You need some Koni's in your life. If I had a 3rd gen it would have Hotchkis springs, Koni shocks, BMR subframe connectors, UMI castor/camber plates, and a UMI phb. A friend of a friend of mine has this setup and I was suprised at how good an old IROC could ride.
08-20-2013, 07:47 AM
#52
He had rubber bushings, but I doubt that anyone could notice a difference in ride quality on rubber vs delrin bushings. Road noise on the other hand is a different ballgame.
08-20-2013, 07:50 AM
#53
Put a ziptie around your strut shafts, against the strut body, to see if your bottoming them out. If you are the ziptie will be slid all the way up against the strut mount.
08-20-2013, 10:18 AM
#55
Yeah it'll let you know how much travel your using and if your bottoming out the strut. If you're bottoming out the strut real bad the ziptie may "disappear" from being smashed.
08-20-2013, 03:21 PM
#57
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Had an 89 IROC, loved that car, I tought it handled great but even in stock form the ride could be rough on less than perfect New England roads. Upgraded to a 99 formula, and the ride was much better, but the handling was still very good, (nose dived too much under braking but new shocks took care of that).
The point is that, ride does not have to be awful for a car to have good manners on the road. I think you could
Go back to rubber bushings
Get springs with more travel and less rate
Get shocks and sway bars that work with the springs
The steering may not be so sharp and the car will be a little higher, but for a car driven 95% street that would seem like a reasonable compromise to me, at least I would enjoy driving it.
I think alot of us want our cars to run and handle like a racecar, but even racecar drivers have a different car waiting at home.
The point is that, ride does not have to be awful for a car to have good manners on the road. I think you could
Go back to rubber bushings
Get springs with more travel and less rate
Get shocks and sway bars that work with the springs
The steering may not be so sharp and the car will be a little higher, but for a car driven 95% street that would seem like a reasonable compromise to me, at least I would enjoy driving it.
I think alot of us want our cars to run and handle like a racecar, but even racecar drivers have a different car waiting at home.
08-20-2013, 05:16 PM
#58
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I have been doing lots of reading on suspension theory between factory cars and "race" cars or cars set up for the track. I have come to the conclusion that it has to be my strut mounts, here is my method of thinking.
Lets assume that the springs even though stiff are not too much for the car, and lets also assume that the Tokicos I have, have the ability to control the motion of the spring. The only other parts of the car that can "translate" the suspension going over the bump are:
- Bottoming out the strut either going fully compressed, or its hitting something on the chassis not allowing its full range of motion. - Not likely
-Strut mounts (stock) absorb the movement that the spring/shock (assuming not bottoming out the spring) could not absorb therefore transferring the shock through the chassis making it a jarring ride going over bumps. I have had problems with the bearing retainers of these mounts since day one. The bearing in one side had so much play it made a hell of a racket. That was repalaced and the noise went away. I suspect my noise I am hearing is the bearing on the other side not within tolerance - Fix change to the stock rubber one.
-Something is loose that can only be felt during rough roads? Bolts through a arm clearance may be too much. - Very doubtful
-bottoming out on the bumpstops - mentioned above, maybe very slight improvement when on really rough roads.
I am really thinking it has to be another defective bearing "hat" in the strut mounts. Not only that, the stock ones are rubber isolators with a sealed bearing in the middle. I think changing to those will absorb the "chassis jarring" i feel but not really effect the handling too much in a negative way. I have to get the car re-aligned anyway so I may install a new set of those factory style strut mounts (if they even make them).
I'm attaching a picture of the stock mounts I replaced.
Lets assume that the springs even though stiff are not too much for the car, and lets also assume that the Tokicos I have, have the ability to control the motion of the spring. The only other parts of the car that can "translate" the suspension going over the bump are:
- Bottoming out the strut either going fully compressed, or its hitting something on the chassis not allowing its full range of motion. - Not likely
-Strut mounts (stock) absorb the movement that the spring/shock (assuming not bottoming out the spring) could not absorb therefore transferring the shock through the chassis making it a jarring ride going over bumps. I have had problems with the bearing retainers of these mounts since day one. The bearing in one side had so much play it made a hell of a racket. That was repalaced and the noise went away. I suspect my noise I am hearing is the bearing on the other side not within tolerance - Fix change to the stock rubber one.
-Something is loose that can only be felt during rough roads? Bolts through a arm clearance may be too much. - Very doubtful
-bottoming out on the bumpstops - mentioned above, maybe very slight improvement when on really rough roads.
I am really thinking it has to be another defective bearing "hat" in the strut mounts. Not only that, the stock ones are rubber isolators with a sealed bearing in the middle. I think changing to those will absorb the "chassis jarring" i feel but not really effect the handling too much in a negative way. I have to get the car re-aligned anyway so I may install a new set of those factory style strut mounts (if they even make them).
I'm attaching a picture of the stock mounts I replaced.
08-21-2013, 06:32 AM
#60
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Reply sent.
As I said in the PM, I went out after posting about the strut mount and felt for play in the bearing hats....none what so ever, and I put the suspension through quite a bit of motion to feel for it. I also now have been through both the front and rear suspension to make sure everything is tight numerous times. I made sure the wheel bearings were good, ball joints etc. The car is truly as tight as a brand new car, so I think this may just be how the car is suppose to ride with all this aftermarket stuff. The baffling part is my buddy has the exact same set up as my car but his car rides so much better (as i said the only differences between his car and mine is the a arm bushings, and his is hardtop while mine is ttop).
I may still replace the strut mounts to lessen the suspension shock on the chassis, but I don't know.
Thanks for all the help.
As I said in the PM, I went out after posting about the strut mount and felt for play in the bearing hats....none what so ever, and I put the suspension through quite a bit of motion to feel for it. I also now have been through both the front and rear suspension to make sure everything is tight numerous times. I made sure the wheel bearings were good, ball joints etc. The car is truly as tight as a brand new car, so I think this may just be how the car is suppose to ride with all this aftermarket stuff. The baffling part is my buddy has the exact same set up as my car but his car rides so much better (as i said the only differences between his car and mine is the a arm bushings, and his is hardtop while mine is ttop).
I may still replace the strut mounts to lessen the suspension shock on the chassis, but I don't know.
Thanks for all the help.