Pulls to right.. nearing wits end...
05-29-2015, 12:27 PM
#22
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My daily does this as well. Suspension is tight, alignment is new, have replaced all rims and tires plus hubs, nothing making any change. Im suspecting a caliper at this point just havent dove deeper yet. I will be tuned in to this one.
05-30-2015, 06:53 PM
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Thanks for the replies.. Like many others have pointed out, I have no earthly idea what my actual numbers are.
I still have to check the caliper on the right to see if it releases fully when it is hot. At least the 21 year old hoses could stand to be replaced if nothing else...
The shade tree way I see it:
a) if the adjustments are slots, and each pair of slots for caster and camber is symmetrical, therefore I can reference the travel of the bolt from stop to stop.
b) if the adjustments are linear then I can keep track of it in rough amounts like 0, 1/2, 3/4, fully out, etc.
I will check for caliper and/or hose problems. After I verify that possible issue, I will give it one last shot by moving the left caster bushing inward by 50%, and leave the right bushing at 100% pulled to the outside. If a car has a tendency to pull to the side of "less positive caster" then this should do the job. Maybe it will pull to the left, maybe nothing at all will happen.. don't know yet. Shooting in the dark here. Kind of like setting the timing on a car without a timing light.. If it runs great after fiddling with it, who cares what the number says?
I will then reset toe, and see if it pulls. It takes me no time to pull off a wheel, loosen the bolts and move the control arms with a pry bar.
When it is all said and done, I will still get it fully aligned.
I still have to check the caliper on the right to see if it releases fully when it is hot. At least the 21 year old hoses could stand to be replaced if nothing else...
The shade tree way I see it:
a) if the adjustments are slots, and each pair of slots for caster and camber is symmetrical, therefore I can reference the travel of the bolt from stop to stop.
b) if the adjustments are linear then I can keep track of it in rough amounts like 0, 1/2, 3/4, fully out, etc.
I will check for caliper and/or hose problems. After I verify that possible issue, I will give it one last shot by moving the left caster bushing inward by 50%, and leave the right bushing at 100% pulled to the outside. If a car has a tendency to pull to the side of "less positive caster" then this should do the job. Maybe it will pull to the left, maybe nothing at all will happen.. don't know yet. Shooting in the dark here. Kind of like setting the timing on a car without a timing light.. If it runs great after fiddling with it, who cares what the number says?
I will then reset toe, and see if it pulls. It takes me no time to pull off a wheel, loosen the bolts and move the control arms with a pry bar.
When it is all said and done, I will still get it fully aligned.
05-30-2015, 07:39 PM
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That might be the red light going on and flashing, there's no set numbers for you to go off here. You do however sound incredibly knowledgeable and you know what you're doing and have the technical skills and smarts to do it and tackle the job yourself. The only problem is that an alignment takes an amount of precision that is quite frankly better calculated with a machine and will be more accurate than a regular human can discern without degrees shown from each wheel and whatnot. That being said there's nothing wrong doing it your way, it just seems repetitive doing it yourself and then going to an alignment shop after you're done and basically getting it aligned again, if it's off anyways.
Final thought - variance from side to side. The slot on one side might be a different degree on the other side even though it's equal distance in slots and you can visual see that they're the same. I actually just thought of this now so I could easily be wrong, it just make sense in my mind
take that with a large, large grain of salt. I have an ominous feeling that it's not the alignment however...
Final thought - variance from side to side. The slot on one side might be a different degree on the other side even though it's equal distance in slots and you can visual see that they're the same. I actually just thought of this now so I could easily be wrong, it just make sense in my mind
take that with a large, large grain of salt. I have an ominous feeling that it's not the alignment however...
05-30-2015, 08:34 PM
#25
Bailey, it's clear you know how to wrench and understand how these cars are put together, and how the adjustments work. However, I think z07 hit the nail on the head. While the slots are the same length on both sides, the build tolerances on these cars are HORRIBLE. These things are all twisted up from the factory, and they only get worse with age. To give you an example, the alignment on my 4th gen that I road race is spot on, as I did it myself on a new laser guided rack. It is the same on both sides down to the tenth of a degree on the display. When you look under the car, the bolts are lined up in the slots in drastically different positions to get the same specs on both sides of the car. In a perfect world, your method of mirroring both sides would absolutely work, the only thing is these cars are far from perfect.
At this point, the most helpful thing to do is actually put it on an alignment rack to see where you are truly at. It sounds like you have a good recommendation for a capable shop. If a shop says they can't adjust anything, or need the J tool, run far away. As you have experienced, these cars are very simple to align. You just need a more accurate way to measure.
At this point, the most helpful thing to do is actually put it on an alignment rack to see where you are truly at. It sounds like you have a good recommendation for a capable shop. If a shop says they can't adjust anything, or need the J tool, run far away. As you have experienced, these cars are very simple to align. You just need a more accurate way to measure.
05-31-2015, 08:20 AM
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I agree with you guys. In a perfect world, being an idealist, the slots would represent the same degree of measurement from side to side, and be repeatable.
I, GM, and the plant who assembled the car cannot guarantee this, which is the boat we are all in with these cars. No two are the same. Nuts and bolts all over the place are the norm.. lol.
It drives good for now with the exception of the pull. I am headed out to check the brakes on the car.
Another question, would the torque arm bushings or panhard bar bushings change the thrust angle of the rear if they are worn? My panhard bushings look ok, and there is no "noise" per say from the torque arm bushing but at 21 years old.... maybe these should be replaced as well. It couldn't hurt I guess.
I, GM, and the plant who assembled the car cannot guarantee this, which is the boat we are all in with these cars. No two are the same. Nuts and bolts all over the place are the norm.. lol.
It drives good for now with the exception of the pull. I am headed out to check the brakes on the car.
Another question, would the torque arm bushings or panhard bar bushings change the thrust angle of the rear if they are worn? My panhard bushings look ok, and there is no "noise" per say from the torque arm bushing but at 21 years old.... maybe these should be replaced as well. It couldn't hurt I guess.
05-31-2015, 03:34 PM
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OK, I went out and drove it to get the brakes hot... I had a jack out in the street and like a rabid pit crew, pulled up to the jack and quickly assessed the brakes. Both wheels spun freely...
I then pushed the left caster bushing inward to give me less positive caster. I reset toe to as close to zero as I could...
It drives better, and the pull is lessened somewhat.. by somewhat I mean now the pull is not consistent like it was before.. Now on some roads and lower speeds, it goes straight, and in some spots it will pull very slightly to the LEFT if I let go of the wheel. That's encouraging..
I did notice that at speeds higher than 45 or so on a smooth road it will still drift off to the right...
HOWEVER, applying the brakes lightly sets the car on a straight path sometimes, with no steering input. Applying the brakes even harder and the car still goes straight until it stops.
What do you guys think? Could it be a braking issue I cannot duplicate when the car is stopped? Remember the wheel spun free not 30 seconds after coming to a stop. I made sure to ride the brakes until I stopped next to the jack. By the way, when riding the brakes, the car went perfectly straight...
I then pushed the left caster bushing inward to give me less positive caster. I reset toe to as close to zero as I could...
It drives better, and the pull is lessened somewhat.. by somewhat I mean now the pull is not consistent like it was before.. Now on some roads and lower speeds, it goes straight, and in some spots it will pull very slightly to the LEFT if I let go of the wheel. That's encouraging..
I did notice that at speeds higher than 45 or so on a smooth road it will still drift off to the right...
HOWEVER, applying the brakes lightly sets the car on a straight path sometimes, with no steering input. Applying the brakes even harder and the car still goes straight until it stops.
What do you guys think? Could it be a braking issue I cannot duplicate when the car is stopped? Remember the wheel spun free not 30 seconds after coming to a stop. I made sure to ride the brakes until I stopped next to the jack. By the way, when riding the brakes, the car went perfectly straight...
05-31-2015, 04:16 PM
#29
OK, I went out and drove it to get the brakes hot... I had a jack out in the street and like a rabid pit crew, pulled up to the jack and quickly assessed the brakes. Both wheels spun freely...
I then pushed the left caster bushing inward to give me less positive caster. I reset toe to as close to zero as I could...
It drives better, and the pull is lessened somewhat.. by somewhat I mean now the pull is not consistent like it was before.. Now on some roads and lower speeds, it goes straight, and in some spots it will pull very slightly to the LEFT if I let go of the wheel. That's encouraging..
I did notice that at speeds higher than 45 or so on a smooth road it will still drift off to the right...
HOWEVER, applying the brakes lightly sets the car on a straight path sometimes, with no steering input. Applying the brakes even harder and the car still goes straight until it stops.
What do you guys think? Could it be a braking issue I cannot duplicate when the car is stopped? Remember the wheel spun free not 30 seconds after coming to a stop. I made sure to ride the brakes until I stopped next to the jack. By the way, when riding the brakes, the car went perfectly straight...
I then pushed the left caster bushing inward to give me less positive caster. I reset toe to as close to zero as I could...
It drives better, and the pull is lessened somewhat.. by somewhat I mean now the pull is not consistent like it was before.. Now on some roads and lower speeds, it goes straight, and in some spots it will pull very slightly to the LEFT if I let go of the wheel. That's encouraging..
I did notice that at speeds higher than 45 or so on a smooth road it will still drift off to the right...
HOWEVER, applying the brakes lightly sets the car on a straight path sometimes, with no steering input. Applying the brakes even harder and the car still goes straight until it stops.
What do you guys think? Could it be a braking issue I cannot duplicate when the car is stopped? Remember the wheel spun free not 30 seconds after coming to a stop. I made sure to ride the brakes until I stopped next to the jack. By the way, when riding the brakes, the car went perfectly straight...
06-10-2015, 09:17 PM
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OK guys, I got it aligned at a shop that knows F body cars.
The before specs were not too bad for a guess after replacing the control arms:
Caster: L 3.2 R 3.6
Camber: L 0.2 R -0.6
Toe: L-0.53* R -0.06*
The after specs are:
Caster: L 4.0 R 4.1
Camber: L 0.2 R 0.4
Toe: L -0.01 R -0.06
The car still pulls steadily to the right. The alignment guy said he could add more positive camber to the left to try to get it to go straight.
The alignment machine is a Hunter Hawkeye. Here's the interesting thing- The guy said he did not like the steering inclination axis numbers he was getting. After the alignment was done, SAI measured 16.6* on the right and 13.2* on the left. Cross SAI is -3.4*
He also mentioned included angle. After alignment specs on this are 17.0* on the left, and 13.8* on the right.
Rear thrust angle is -0.02*, ruling out a bent axle theory.
He stated that a) the cars could have left the factory that way with a shitty build. b)the car was smacked at some point and a frame straightening attempt was done but not perfectly.
I don't think switching the wheels from left to right will yield any results, hopefully in the radial pull/conicity theory. I can still try that.
What do you all think of these specs? Any ideas? Sell it, burn it, drive it?
The before specs were not too bad for a guess after replacing the control arms:
Caster: L 3.2 R 3.6
Camber: L 0.2 R -0.6
Toe: L-0.53* R -0.06*
The after specs are:
Caster: L 4.0 R 4.1
Camber: L 0.2 R 0.4
Toe: L -0.01 R -0.06
The car still pulls steadily to the right. The alignment guy said he could add more positive camber to the left to try to get it to go straight.
The alignment machine is a Hunter Hawkeye. Here's the interesting thing- The guy said he did not like the steering inclination axis numbers he was getting. After the alignment was done, SAI measured 16.6* on the right and 13.2* on the left. Cross SAI is -3.4*
He also mentioned included angle. After alignment specs on this are 17.0* on the left, and 13.8* on the right.
Rear thrust angle is -0.02*, ruling out a bent axle theory.
He stated that a) the cars could have left the factory that way with a shitty build. b)the car was smacked at some point and a frame straightening attempt was done but not perfectly.
I don't think switching the wheels from left to right will yield any results, hopefully in the radial pull/conicity theory. I can still try that.
What do you all think of these specs? Any ideas? Sell it, burn it, drive it?
06-11-2015, 07:51 AM
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I forgot to mention that before the alignment, I also replaced both front brake calipers AND hoses. I flushed the brake fluid at all four corners as well.
I did notice the car seem to roll a little better after releasing the brake pedal. The old fluid looked like rusty mud.
Car still pulled the same as it did before the new brake parts went on. Bummer.
I did notice the car seem to roll a little better after releasing the brake pedal. The old fluid looked like rusty mud.
Car still pulled the same as it did before the new brake parts went on. Bummer.
Last edited by Bailey28; 06-11-2015 at 09:29 AM.
06-11-2015, 12:41 PM
#32
Ok, just spit-balling ideas here...
I have a 1999 Montana, and it was a royal PITA to get aligned. The shop (very competent) never did get it right, but could point out and explain why. Apparently the left wheel was more forward, compared to the right. It has new lower LCAs, struts and tires. Nonetheless, it was at the end of the adjust-ability and the left and right wheels could not be brought into direct alignment across from each other. The tech did explain that the tires were aligned and would not wear weird.
The cause? A bent frame or chassis component, most likely. I did abuse the poor thing (high centered in a deep mud hole, and yanked out with a 4x4 truck, daughter hit a curb, etc), so that was a distinct possibility.
Another possibility: the MFG of one of the various new parts deviated from factory spec.
I have a 1999 Montana, and it was a royal PITA to get aligned. The shop (very competent) never did get it right, but could point out and explain why. Apparently the left wheel was more forward, compared to the right. It has new lower LCAs, struts and tires. Nonetheless, it was at the end of the adjust-ability and the left and right wheels could not be brought into direct alignment across from each other. The tech did explain that the tires were aligned and would not wear weird.
The cause? A bent frame or chassis component, most likely. I did abuse the poor thing (high centered in a deep mud hole, and yanked out with a 4x4 truck, daughter hit a curb, etc), so that was a distinct possibility.
Another possibility: the MFG of one of the various new parts deviated from factory spec.
06-13-2015, 05:08 AM
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I am coming around to believing this car may have been crashed at some point.. the joys of buying used I guess. .
Along with all of the new suspension and tires, etc.. I have never been able to solve the weird resonance in the car from 50-55 mph. This car, still, has a horrible bounce/resonance when traveling in a straight line at those speeds. Its a very low frequency oscillation, but the whole car seems to bounce up and down, and side to side.
I thought it was tire waddle, but after checking wheels, tires, and replacing two tires it never went away.
I think I may be moving on shortly. Thanks for the replies gentlemen!
Along with all of the new suspension and tires, etc.. I have never been able to solve the weird resonance in the car from 50-55 mph. This car, still, has a horrible bounce/resonance when traveling in a straight line at those speeds. Its a very low frequency oscillation, but the whole car seems to bounce up and down, and side to side.
I thought it was tire waddle, but after checking wheels, tires, and replacing two tires it never went away.
I think I may be moving on shortly. Thanks for the replies gentlemen!
09-25-2015, 09:09 PM
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Back from dead: It's been a while since I've messed with the car as I kind of got tired of it. The other day I was reading about 'radial pull' and what it can do to the handling of the car...
Since basically rebuilding the suspension on the car, nothing fixed the pull to the right.. Yesterday, I decided to finally swap the two front tires right to left, left to right... Guess what....
IT NOW PULLS TO THE LEFT!!
Guys, I did all of the above work only to discover this entire problem is 'radial pull'.....why didn't I do this before?? Because I 'trusted' the new tires... They're new after all, why would they do that?
BTW, I bought junk cheap Sumitomo P01 a/s tires... I will move the culprit tire to the rear to see if I can get the car to go straight... If not, I think I'm going to get a new set of American name brand tires and hopefully not have this issue again...
Since basically rebuilding the suspension on the car, nothing fixed the pull to the right.. Yesterday, I decided to finally swap the two front tires right to left, left to right... Guess what....
IT NOW PULLS TO THE LEFT!!
Guys, I did all of the above work only to discover this entire problem is 'radial pull'.....why didn't I do this before?? Because I 'trusted' the new tires... They're new after all, why would they do that?
BTW, I bought junk cheap Sumitomo P01 a/s tires... I will move the culprit tire to the rear to see if I can get the car to go straight... If not, I think I'm going to get a new set of American name brand tires and hopefully not have this issue again...