Ok, I've just recently got back into cars. Finally found a good deal on an M6 Trans Am, and I'm in love all over again.

Anyways, I've always been into 3rd gen fbodies. Before, i was all about the straight line. However, now i find that boring and get thrills from curves and tires screaming for mercy.

So, I'm trying to get a good game plan for my suspension. This will be an autocross type car eventually, and I'm choosing to start with the chassis and suspension with the drive train to follow afterwards.

I'm talking entire suspension replacement, both sway bars, all control arms, Panhard, torque arm, sub frame connectors, braces, ball joints, bushings, bearings, the works basically.

Who should i go with? Should i keep it all in the family, mix and match, custom make something?

Should i go with adjustable everything? What doesn't need to be adjustable? What's gimmicky and what's legit?

I've been into guns for a long time now. I know who's good, what's bad, etc etc when it comes to firearms. I'm lost now when it comes to car parts now. I did some searches, and i just don't know exactly what I'm looking at anymore. I may think something sounds nice and is total bullshit. That's what i want to avoid bullshit mistakes.

So, I'm starting this thread. Help me buy once cry once.

I'm going to do 90% of the work myself. Tuning and adjustments will need proper help and equipment obviously. I'll swap everything myself, and reluctantly pay someone to help/do the tuning for me.

Suspension is first. Mechanically, she's stock and pretty sound. About to hit 100k and already got parts massed for that. Just standard stuff all around. But now I'm saving for the suspension parts. I'm going to buy them piece by piece, and install everything in one hoorah. Then amass parts for the drive train and do the same.

I guess let's get started. Thanks ahead of time.

 

Sounds like you have a pretty good game plan!
I'll let everyone here chime in on who's the best,and what the "gimmicks" are.

What i can tell you is that all UMI suspension products are made "in house" in Philipsburg Pennsylvania out of USA material. We design,test, and RACE all of our products. We won't sell you anything we aren"t comfortable with putting on our own vehicles.We manufacture most everything we offer including powdercoat here at our facility.Nothing is outsourced to any other machine shops! Our warranty and customer service is second to none.

You can give me a call directly here at the shop so we can talk about what you are trying to accomplish and your budget.I can then e-mail you an estimate for the products that you are interested in.

Craig

 

What you are about to do is exactly what I did. I started from the suspension first and then hit my first autox event after everything was replaced with decent parts and suspension. While I'll give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that I didn't do anything wrong, that's just not the way I would approach it if I were to do it over again.

Just plain seat time gives you much more experience and a better feel for what your car can do and how it handles and responds. A guy could jump in a stock camaro and easily outrun my car if he had the driving ability to do so. Then again for my first autox I beat a 2010 mustang with 300+ horsepower with my 95 v6 camaro with 160hp by 3 seconds, needless to say we were both novices and really had no idea what we were doing. Driving experience and knowing your car's limits, as well as yours, is a great place to start. Just don't try those limits out on the street

To blatantly put it, tires alone will outdo a car with full suspension and bad tires. But you're paying a lot for good tires and rims to fit and you don't get the benefit of having that go-kart type feel when you turn a corner.

Upgrading the suspension before you autox isn't a bad thing at all, I mean look at me! You get a better feel for each part you install if you get seat time prior to the upgrade though. These cars do love a good tight suspension though, it feels fantastic to have a hunkered down car that just turns when your want it to. If you do want to start from somewhere though, I'd shoot for a balanced set of hollow sway bars and decent rear shocks. Those are the largest downfalls to an F-body IMO. As far as part/brand preferences, it's up to you to mix and match or stick with one company

 

First and foremost, get some decent tires and some good quality seat time in the car. These two things are very important with any handling vehicle.

For a car like yours where you want to concentrate on handling more so than anything else, the three main components that you will see benefits from is shocks, springs, and sway bars. These three components will provide you the biggest increase in performance over any of the other parts you have listed so we can start off there.

For the shocks I would really recommend Koni yellow shocks if the budget allows. They are an adjustable shock that works very well for your goals and they team up amazingly well with our BMR lowering springs which will also lower the car 1.25" all around. If the Koni yellows are out of your budget the Koni STR.T shocks would be a more budget friendly option. They are non-adjustable and won't offer the same performance as the Koni yellow shocks but they are a solid shock for the money.

We have a nice BMR sway bar package that includes a 35mm front hollow sway bar and 25mm rear hollow sway bars. This sway bar package include new poly bushings and end links with the sway bars for a complete bolt-in option. These sway bars are considerable stiffer and lighter than the factory bars so they are big step up.

For the rear suspension components like the panhard bar and lower control arms I would recommend either adjustable rod ended components or adjustable poly/rod ended components. The adjustability of these components will allow you to center up the rear end under the car and make sure the thrust angle of the rear end is correct. If you are a little worried about adding NVH into the vehicle your best best would be to go with the poly/rod ended panhard bar (PHR010) and lower control arms (TCA004). These components will allow very good articulation without inducing too much NVH into the vehicle. The rod end on the suspension side of the component ensures free movement and the poly bushings on the chassis side helps absorb much of the NVH. If you aren't worried about adding NVH into the vehicle just go with the rod ended parts. They are the strongest/most durable design that offers full articulation without any kind of binding. nIf you are looking to go more extreme you can do a watts link (WL002) instead of panhard bar which will offer roll center adjustments and the best rear end side to side movement control out of anything.

The ideal torque setup is a full length adjustable torque arm (TA001) with a torque arm relocation crossmember (TCC006). The adjustable torque is built much better than the the factory piece and will help you get the power to the ground. It will also allow you to fine tune the pinion angle which will be thrown off from lowering the vehicle. The torque arm relocation crossmember allows you to get the torque arm off the back of the transmission and mount it to the crossmember. This will keep you from putting too much load on the tailshaft housing of the transmission. Having the torque arm relocation crossmember will also allow you to fine tune the instant center of the vehicle which can be very helpful.

As far as chassis components like subframe connectors and strut tower braces go some people feel they really help and some people don't. Having a little chassis flex is a horrible thing especially when it comes to handling so you could always see how you like the car without them and if you end up feeling like you need them you can do them after the fact.

As far as the front suspension goes, I would check the bushings and ball joints and if they were in good shape you will be fine with them. If you want to upgrade the upper and lower a-arms it isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't say it is something you have to do. Our upper a-arms (AA004) and lower a-arms (AA002) will allow better articulation and weight saving so there are definitely benefits to them.

Having adjustable part are very beneficial because they will allow you to fine tune the suspension to exactly where you want it. I would definitely recommend going with adjustable components for your vehicle. You can mix and match brands if you choose to just make sure you use quality components and you will be fine.

If there is anything we can help you out with just let us know.

 

For the rear suspension such as the panhard bar and lower control arms I would recommend our double adjustable heim components. The ability adjust of these components will allow you to center the rearend under the car and to help you to achieve proper pinion angle. If your budget will allow I would also consider doing a watts link in place of the panhard bar.

The torque arm setup I would use would be our adjustable long torque arm with our torque arm relocation crossmember. This also helps you to achieve the proper pinion angle the torque arm relocation crossmember allows you to get the torque arm off the back of the transmission and mount it to a separate crossmember that will keep you from putting too much stress on the tailshaft housing which can cause it to break. I would also consider our weld on subframe connectors. I would also consider doing the Viking 4 corner coil-over shocks that way you can a specific spring rate and they are 19 way double adjustable and carry a 2yr warranty. If you wanted to get real crazy with your build I would look at doing a k-member and lower a-arms. If you have any questions or concerns please give us a call.

 

1. Seat time
2. More seat time
3. Shocks and springs (IMO Koni/Strano)
4. More seat time
5. Sway Bars (Strano, UMI, BMR and a few others have good ones)
6. Additional seat time
7. Watt's link

 

If you want some help, call me.

I not only have competed in the cars, but won a lot in the cars. Lots of Championships and not local ones, but National ones. I'd be happy to discuss things with you.

However, a few things to know first. 1. I'm not a mind reader and everyone has something they kind of wish for on the inside, it's best I know all the information up front. 2. Have an idea what you want to put to the project at this time. What we do with say $800 is way different than with $3000. But no matter what I'll do the best setup I can for the budget I'm given.

I think it's a mistake to do everything there is at once. I know, you'd think because I sell parts I'd want you to do that. I don't. Because that's a LOT of change. And you might well find you can be happy with fewer parts than you think. Alternatively, you can go too far... and that's easily done with the internet education that folks get and act upon.

 

I'm a proponent of feeling how the parts affect the behavior of the vehicle. So I'm going to recommend fixing any safety issues first, ensure you have decent tire tread and go race for 6 months to a year, and enroll in any driver training courses available to you. Let multiple local SCCA champions ride with you to give you input on your driving style, and then ride along with them in your car. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Learn how your car is responding to your inputs, then define the undesirable behavior and get the parts which will resolve that behavior. But if at all possible I only make one change at a time then drive it for awhile, so I know how the car's behavior changes with that single part... if you add a bunch of parts and then there's an undesirable result, it's more work to isolate it. If the behavior returns in the future, you also have an idea of where to begin troubleshooting. You'll be a better driver in the long run if you learn how to drive well on street tires before switching to DOTR tires.

But you'll probably end up with something similar to this:

Front Suspension: Koni SA shocks, 550-650# springs with an adjustable coilover kit, 35mm solid antisway bar or the equivalent rate hollow bar, stock LCA's, stock or Global West UCA's, Moog Problem Solver series for maintenance items (ball joints, tie rod ends, etc), antisway bar endlinks with the appropriate length to make the bar arms level and unloaded at rest.

Rear suspension: same shocks, 150-200# pigtail springs, 19-22mm antisway bar (dependent upon how much oversteer you want, larger is more oversteer) or get an adjustable bar which will mimic these bar rates, stock torque arm is fine, double-adjustable panhard bar (with adjusters on the ends of the bar) if the car is lowered, stock upper panhard brace is fine unless you want to run dual exhaust over the axle, stock LCA's with Moog bushings is fine, weld-in LCA relocation brackets if the car is lowered, antisway bar endlinks with the appropriate length to make the bar arms level and unloaded at rest.

Front Wheels: 18x10.5" or 17x11" wheels on street tires (Hoosier tires when you're ready), wheel spacers, ARP wheel studs, SKF Hub adapters & SKF C5/C6 race bearings, may need to trim spindle for wheel clearance

Rear wheels: Same tires/wheels/studs as front, will need to beat in inner fender for tire clearance. If using the stock LCA's and they are rubbing the tires, switch to a tubular LCA's using Roto-joints

Driveline: aluminum driveshaft, Eaton clutch-based differential, final drive based upon traction and desired behavior, lightweight clutch

Steering: Turn One Power steering pump, Redline PS fluid

Front Braking: ATE Brake fluid or something equivalent, Hawk HP+ brake pads (this will be subjective to your opinion on the balance of dust, noise, etc you want to endure), plain rotors, stainless brake lines

Rear braking: Same as front with a less aggressive pad, something like a Hawk HPS

Alignment: You'll be limited with the stock UCA's. Sitting in the vehicle, max camber, castor around 5-5.5, toe near 0... all equal side-to-side... maybe 3/32 total toe out if you want it to be a little more responsive during autox, but it might be too twitchy on normal roads. Too much castor will throw off the corner weights while turning. Use tire pyrometer to ensure pressures are linear across the contact patch; if the range from inside to outside is too far apart you may need to adjust camber to bring them closer together.

If you opt for subframe connectors, get the weld-in variety. I don't have any personal experience with a Watts Link, that solution came out after I had already lowered my panhard bar. Adjustability is fine if you have the ability to properly test for the correct position. If not, you could make things worse than stock.

 

Lots of fantastic info guys.

Ok, a littler more info about me. I've had 11 different fbodied over the years, only 1 of them never drive or ran. Gave up on it the more i dig into the restore.

75, 76, 77, 82, 84, 88, 89, 92, 96, 96, 01. The 89, 92, and 01 were v6. I've got tons of miles on these cars, but never been on the track. Yes, i was stupid as a kid and did alot of stupid things on the street. I'm confident i could jump into an amateur event and hold my own, possibly even get on the podium, haha!

With that said, i definitely need to get some track time. However, i know there's things i need to change without needing to race to get the feel. These are the sway bars, shocks/struts, and springs.

So, i do plan on keeping this a semi-daily driver. Do i really need to lower the car? I'm in Houston, my 92 and 01 were lowered, the 92 was a hack job before me, they chopped the springs pretty bad. My 01 had Eibach springs, abs i think they were UMI sway bars and rear control arms. I got the parts off a donor car, they were red if that means anything. Anyways, both the 01 and 92 rode like ****. I read the Eibach springs are pretty much bogus, and everywhere i read recommended Stranos springs. I think the lowered ride height was the main culprit in the shitty rides.

How much benefit would lowering give me if i had all the other good stuff? Would it be nominal, or substantial? Ride comfort is not a huge deal, but it's something i don't want to lose completely. I'm not opposed to it by any means, but if the benefit is nominal after all the other components, I'd figure just get some quality springs, but not lower.

I understand the point of doing small bits at a time to feel the changes. This i can do, i was just thinking if getting it all done at once just because i like doing big projects like that.

My idea is to have the extremes, and be able to tune it how i see fit. I go with the "have it and not need it" mentality.

So, for now, I'm going to shop around. What about QA1? I've read good things about these guys, but they haven't been mentioned yet.

What would be the ideal parts to replace first? Shocks/struts are obvious, mine are not shot yet, surprisingly i can't see any signs of leaking.

Should i start with shocks/struts and springs? Or hold off on the springs and go for sway bars first?

As for budget, just within reason. That's why i want to get it one piece at a time. I'm imagining I'm going to drop somewhere in the $3k range when ask is said and done in the suspension. This is just a rough estimate without knowing the full cost of everything.

Thanks again for all the info. Please keep it coming and I'll post up questions as i think of them.

 

My personal responses inline:

 

The guy you want to talk to is Sam Strano, hes the only vendor on here who has won natinal SCCA championships in his Camaro.
If there is any one who knows how to set these cars up to handle its him.
Some suspension vendors on here don't even know what a steering wheel is for...
Your other cars rode like crap because of pairing the terrible stock shocks with shitty lowering springs.
You don't need to lower the car for handling, but it will definitely be a huge benefit. With good shocks and good lowering springs these car feel and ride great.

Pure garbage.
QA1s, Viking, Strange, and Afco are all non-gas charged dragshocks, some of which are marketed toward "protouring" which is just that, marketing.
For the same or similar price you can get a shocks that are lightyears better in terms of performance, adjust ability (number of adjustments are irrelevant if the valving is **** in the first place), ride and warranty.

Shocks, shocks, shocks.
Your stock ones (orange/black decarbon shocks) were **** from the time the car rolled off the assembly line. This is the biggest thing that attributes to the poor stock handling.
Get some Koni SA's, you will be blown away with the difference they make.
If you have more coin and want to go coilovers you can look into ridetech or KW.

You won't need $3000 for just suspension (excluding brakes/wheels/tires) for a great setup.
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=90&ModelID=7
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=67&ModelID=7
These will make the biggest difference.
Things like control arms, torque arm, subframe connectors, relocation brackets can be done after if you want a little more out of the car, I have all of the above and the difference those little parts make is minuscule. Focus on the shocks/springs/swaybars and watts link for suspension.
Don't forget tires (ideally 17x11 wheels all around with 315/35/17 tires) and brakes (blank rotors, good pads).

 

Here's a good question.

What sets BMR, UMI, and Midwest apart? From my point of view, without trying or setting your parts in person, they all seem to be the same thing. With the difference being price and slightly different design between BMR and UMI. Right now, I'm looking at front control arms, but same with the rear parts. Everything is very similar, with subtle differences. What sets you guys apart?

What exactly is the Watts link?

Independent rear suspension, is it worth the fabrication, price, and headache? I see complete kits for 1st and 2nd gen cars, as well as other old school muscle cars, but no kit for the 4th gen. I've read of people doing it, which involved extensive mods. I'm thinking being able to adjust the alignment would be pretty beneficial.

I had more questions planned for this post, but it's late and I'm hungry.

 

Before looking at aftermarket parts, how old is your car? How many miles on it? If it has more than 50-60,000 miles, my first change(s) would be new ball joints, control arm bushings, and tie rod ends. If the shocks are old/worn, replace them also. Then get a good set of tires and a PROPER front end alignment.

Then, seat time, LOTS of seat time......

 

I'm not here to argue which is better gas charged mono tube -vs- hydraulic twin tube shocks but i would like to shed some light on the performance end of it for the guys on here that are getting confused about what shock is best for them when they don't have an "unlimited" budget and want a shock that will perform without breaking the bank.

I am "not" a shock engineer,but having 28 years experience racing vehicles with shocks on them, 6 of those making a living of it ( That qualifies me as knowing what a steering wheel is) I know how easy it is to be led in the wrong direction by people that have never experienced actual seat time with products on both ends of the spectrum.

Are mono tube shocks a better design than twin tube? absolutely!
That's why they cost a whole lot more money.

So if your a street guy that wants a shock that will work good at weekend competitions don't be afraid to invest your money in a reputable "low buck" shock.Many guys are winning competitions on the so called junk shocks.

Can a guy be competitive with twin tube shocks? absolutely!

I have run both mono tube and twin tube shocks on a 900hp 1375Lb dirt sprint car and have won on both.They do work differently but not to the point of the twin tube shock fading and performance being lost.

Here's the difference that the everyday working guy that has a budget needs to know.
Twin tube shocks give you a better ride!
Twin tube shocks cost less!
You can win competitions with Twin tube shocks!
It is highly unlikely that the weekend racing guy whether it be auto-x/road racing or drag racing will run a car with twin tube shocks to the point of shock fade being noticed and hampering performance.

Just so i don't get lynched by all the so called shock experts, Twin tube shocks on an engineering standpoint "will" experience foaming and shock fade on paper. Just not to the point most guys looking for shock advice on this forum will notice.

Craig

 

A lot of parts might look the same, but don't act the same. You can think about almost anything other than suspension or shocks and know this is the case. Any pair of sneakers looks pretty much the same, but a pair from Wal-Mart @ $15 are a long way from a $100 from New Balance. Tires, all round and black but again long way from cheap to not in terms of how things work.

You have to consider that parts work in a dynamic environment. Things move, they flex, the work in conjunction with other parts, they do different jobs. Kind of like, well.... pills Not any old pill works for a headache.

Making a car go straight is frankly easier than making it turn, there are just a lot more variables in play. Then you add the way the car behaves while driving, that's not easy to get right. See also how everyone chases the dynamics of German cars even after all these years. Here's a hint, they don't have crappy shocks.

I've seen some pretty horrific things from "established" shock companies, even lately in looking at some dyno's consulting on a coil-over project with another company.

 

Im aware looks don't matter. Wasn't trying to imply that. What i was getting at, is what's the difference between the companies products? All three of those guys makes the same parts, but what makes BMR and UMI different?

I guess i was trying to get a more in depth sales pitch from the guys since they're reps.

Why should i pick BMR over UMI or Midwest? Or any variation?

If my questions seem vague or simple, forgive me. But it seems i got some smart ***** in here, so I'm gonna milky as much knowledge as i can from you guys.

What benefit do coil overs have as opposed to the shock/spring setup? I'm looking at your stuff Strano, great deal as well. Since you've won with your stuff, your obviously going to have a bit of bias, but what is your take on coil overs?

Still brainstorming on the IRS setup. I think the idea is interesting. Just don't know if there is enough benefit relative to the amount of work involved.

Thanks again guys.

 

The parts aren't all the same. That's my point. Some are very much alike, but others are vastly different. The quality of the materials, the welding the various parts that make up the item you are looking at are all things to consider. But, for instance if you look at k-members they are vastly different.

"coil-overs" is one of those terms that is tossed around but can mean a lot of things to a lot of folks. Coil-overs are just shocks and springs, that offer ride height adjustment. Some are coil-over in the rear, some are not (spring not on top of the damper). And many still use crappy shocks.

I have a lot of coil-over type options from KW, to Ridetech, to stuff like Viking which about everyone also carries. I can also do things like Strange, etc. But for handling if you want height adjustment and the ability to tune the car with damper settings AND have a damper worth a damn, the KW and Ridetech Stage 2 or 3 are the way to go. If you want the height stuff and a less great shock then we can do Viking. I personally don't love that way of going but I offer it because if I don't folks hellbent on that will find it elsewhere.

So... what's a "coil-over" mean to you? And yes I'm biased. We all are, everyone. The trick then becomes backing up your position, which I can do.

 

The biggest benefit of coil-overs for a street guy is that the ride height can be adjusted specifically to where you want it from above stock height to about as low as you can get it up to about 3" lower with the proper length springs. You can also change the spring rate relatively easy and at a fraction of the cost of coil springs.

As far as UMI goes all our suspension products are made in house in Philipsburg Pennsylvania out of USA material. We design,test, and RACE all of our products. We won't sell you anything we aren"t comfortable with putting on our own vehicles.We manufacture most everything we offer including powdercoat here at our facility.Nothing is outsourced to any other machine shops! We tend to believe our warranty and customer service is second to none.

If you are interested in our products please feel free to contact us or one of our dealers,we can discuss your budget and what you are trying to accomplish with your car.

Craig

 

As far as the IRS issue goes, yes, some (very few) have done it on a 4th gen f body (usually using C4 Vette set ups), but, it is VERY time consuming with MAJOR re-engineering and fabrication involved.

Frankly, personally, I don't think it is worth it until someone like Detroit Speed comes up with a bolt-in set up for our cars, and then they would probably charge so much for it that you'd be better off buying a decent USED C6 at that point, if IRS is a 'must have' for you.

GREAT shocks/springs/sway bar set up and a good Watts Link will get you most of the way there, save for VERY bumpy, 'washboard'/chattering turns. (And even they are not so bad with the proper rear shock tuning and spring rates.)

 

Lots of good info here...for some different perspective I recommend trying to setup an account frrax.com...F-body Road Racing AutoX. There's lots of good info there on suspension setup.

There is a lot of literature on autox so I think it may be worthwhile to invest in you by reading up on the subject...you're only as valuable as what you know and it will help you decide for yourself, what direction you would like to go in.

Everyone mentioned seat time...I could not agree more.

as already mentioned, shocks and springs should be the first thing on your to-do list as it will have the most significant impact relative to any other mod you will do. Word of caution...if you decide to go with koni shock setup which is a great shock btw, please be aware that "upgrading" the front springs will make you wish you went with a coil-over setup. Yes it is a lot more money up front but you will have the flexibility of swapping in stiffer springs without having to modify the shock to accommodate a sleeve and collar...also note that modifying the shock will more than likely void the warranty...This is why I'm telling you to read...you're wallet will thank you.