Please elaborate - I'm curious.



Specifically with regard to F-Body sway bars, my research indicates that as it sits stock, the rear bar is plenty big, but the front is undersized. Bigger aftermarket bars like the Hotchkiss are often too big for all but the most extreme applications. The stiffer front bar lets you run softer settings on the front shocks but still reduce body roll.

Note that my applcation is primarily street driving + the ability to handle the occasional road course lapping event/driving school. So all my research was all done with that tilt - a bigger rear bar may well be an asset to other applications.

 

A large front bar helps to limit body roll.

This is important because body roll has an effect on camber (the more the body rolls, the more camber you will lose...meaning, your camber goes towards positive). That is one of the primary reasons for adding a larger roll bar. The stiffer suspension that maintains a better camber curve is better than a softer suspension that loses considerably more camber. One line of thinking is that a car that is any stiffer than what is "needed to do the job" is a detriment. But, if the softer setup can't control camber, then it is "too soft". You can compensate for much of this by changing your static alignment to include more negative camber. This will allow some body roll and keep the contact patch of the front tire "under control".

One of the problems with a stiff rear bar and a torsen differential (98 and up cars), is that in a corner it unloads the rear inside tire and you are not able to put power down. So, most people suggest leaving the rear bar stock. Also, the front bar has an impact on the "total roll" of the vehicle. Meaning, it is considered by many to be stiff enough for both ends. It's not so much that the rear bar is plenty big, but that changing the rear bar can open the door to a host of other problems. A larger rear bar will probably imporve weight distribution in a corner, but you may lose the abilitiy to accelerate off of that corner.

You have to understand what problem you are trying to fix when you begin to change sway bars. I am running a 35/25mm sway bar combo. I have a hard time putting down power exiting slow, tight, corners (think autocross) and I spin the inside tire in a slalom (autocross), but the car is remarkably neutral in a 90 mph sweeper and I have no tire spin issues. So, you have to decide what you want the car to do and set it up accordingly.

I'm also running considerably more spring rate than most people (but not all, there are cars that are stiffer than mine). But, for high speeds, my setup works, for autocross, it is not so good.

I plan to use a T2R to "fix" the rear sway bar problem.

Everythings a compromise.

 

Kevin, I came || this close to trying a 3rd gen rear bar and backed out after my nephew's car was as tail happy as a sailor on shore leave in the Philipines.

Reading your setup and your results makes me have to wonder ...

What is neutral? As my car sits, I can kick the rear out to scrub speed without ever touching the brakes. Is that neutral? I have the 35/21 bars and 560/160-220 springs, Bilstein HDs up front and Koni SAs (full soft) out back.

If I feel as though I need to dial out oversteer, I stiffen the rear shocks about 1/4 turn. The car can get real happy really quick.

So, my question/observation ...

Am I just reducing the oversteer to a point that I'm not noticing it as much? Thinking I'm neutral?

For a 90mph 3rd gear turn, I am having to constantly give the car counter steer to keep it underneath me. It would slide if I didn't. Is that neutral?

Hell ... is neutral what I should be shooting for?

The more I learn, the stoopider I feel ...

John ... my research and my experience is beginning to reveal that a car that handles well (can anyone define "handles well) on a road course is a PITA to drive on the street. It's just too stiff and too darty to try and stay in a single lane of traffic. Conversely, I well mannered street car will destroy tires on a road course.

 

Makes sense - my setup is basically a street biased one, plus shocks that can stand up to a road course. Should be more neutral than your setup, but likely will not be as quick around a road course as your setup.

Going with the following
Front:
35mm Strano hollow front bar
Koni SA
Stock Springs

Rear:
Stock 19mm bar
Stock Springs
3rd gen Bilstiens


Regarding "handles well", I agree that you can't really define it, very subjective. If your inputs are smooth enough and your technique is good, anything from a Jeep to a Corvette can make it through a set of corners. More traction lets you go faster, less body roll lets you (well mainly your pasengers) feel more secure.

 

I run:

Koni DA's (front and rear)
H&R Stage 2 springs (647/258 in lbs - linear rate)
ST bars 35mm/25mm
SLP SFC's
BMR STB
and, right now, I've got stock LCA's and a stock PHB under the car (from when I was trying to sell it).

I seem to make great high speed grip.

 

As for the poly bushings squeaking, you won't have any problem on the front, but on the rear where there is much more movement, I sugest using the black rubber bushing that comes with the 1LE rear bar. I'm using a 21 mm 1LE rear bar with a BMR solid 32 mm bar up front with good success. I'd like to try an ST 35 mm bar though. I autox and drive a lot of twisty public roads.

 

lots of great info here to keep me thinking, thanks guys!

 

What kind of ride height did you get with these as compared to stock?
Uses the stock perches?
Source?

The reason I like teh G2 supers is that at speed and the downforce compresses the suspension, the car levels out ... I guess its downforce ...

But it also must do something to the wind going under that car as well. It really feels rock solid ....

Is your 25mm rear bar a 3rd gen bar or sourced somewhere else with different torsional characteristics?

 

I'd have to measure the fender height. It is about 1.4 inches (give or take .2) lower than stock.

The rear bar is the "rest" of the Suspension Techniques 35mm swaybar set for a 4th gen. Everyone just uses the front, I bought the kit and did them both. It is a basic 25mm solid rear bar for a 4th gen (not that there is any difference that I can see).

I've been wide open in 4th gear in a high speed sweeper and was still floored and turning when I hit 5th. The car actually pushes at that point??? (that was on street rubber). Under full throttle, the rear is "loaded", but to feel it slightly (very slightly, almost perfectly neutral) push at all suprised me???

For ride height, I can say that the little 2 1/4 ton "trolley jack" will just fit under my front subframe (and the pads for the SLP SFC's) with 1/8" to spare if that. I have to jack it up there to get a jack under the SFC's to actually lift it. None of my jacks will fit under the K member. It's reasonably low.

 

Stock perches, yup.

Source-tirerack